Rock Lee huh? (underneath the underneath?) [Manga Spoilers]

[Shadamehr]

Originally Posted by Merco

First off, to answer grey, the reason I had this in a seperate thread primarily because the thought never really occurred to me to post it in 209, I was sort of distracted (long story).

When I thought about it, I think it was better this way, since there was/is a possibility for this thread to be derailed into a discussion about Itachi.

Ahem, BAD Merco, BAD!

There is a current episode thread posted every week and *stickied*. It is common courtesy to confine spoilers about the current episode to this thread. You know, respecting your fellow forum-goer and all that.

[GreyArea]

Originally Posted by Merco

First off, to answer grey, the reason I had this in a seperate thread primarily because the thought never really occurred to me to post it in 209, I was sort of distracted (long story).

When I thought about it, I think it was better this way, since there was/is a possibility for this thread to be derailed into a discussion about Itachi.

I read your theory on what could happen, and I think it's definitely plausible. In fact there are really three different ways I could see this going. There's the whole the surgery failed deal, and using the gates to be able to move again... but if that's the case, then how would anybody allow him to get out of bed, he'd probably still be unconcious anyhow, and if by chance he'd escape every medical nin pursueing him to help before the big final moment, why doesn't he look like he's opened any of the gates?

The second idea is that things were a complete success, in which case he'd somehow manage to escape the recovery room, and all pretenses of realism would have flown out the window.

Or the third idea... This is Itachi... I've already told you about that theory up top.

For all that has been said about Itachi, nobody really knows his motivations. Sure we know he was ordered to grab Naruto. We even know that Sasuke hates his guts for killing off the whole Uchina clan. But do we know that Itachi actually did it? All we saw is Sasuke entering a room with Itachi standing over his familys' dead bodies. He pulled a Mange Sharingan on Sasuke, but we don't really know why... and neither does Sasuke.

Spoiler:

There's no way it could be Itachi, unless he's been lurking in the background since the prelims (which we know he hasnt, because he arrived on the scene after the invasion), therefore he would never have seen Rock Lee fight, and wouldnt have know his mannerisms (like how he introduced himself).

[Asmedaus]

Originally Posted by Merco

The second idea is that things were a complete success, in which case he'd somehow manage to escape the recovery room, and all pretenses of realism would have flown out the window.

I think this theory has the most going for it. The the failed surgery theory makes no sense since Rock Lee could not move without help then, or if it was really a failure have been dead by now. Yet, if the surgery was a success then he would definately skip the whole recovery portion and try to help Naruto and Co. It's was he does, he will sacrifice whatever he needs to to prove his will.

Also, the whole realism issue that you are bringing up. I know what you are trying to say, given what we saw so far you think that Lee being out there without a good number of days recovering is not realistic. Yet, you have to see the given, which isn't much. All we know is that Lee is back, and is he fully healed? Is he fighting through pain? Also, realism can't really apply as much here, since a new "art" could have been used to regenerate Lee. I understand your reservations in accepting that, I would also see this as more of an excuse to have Lee there, yet it could be the answer and it's just as realistic as pulling out a bone to fight, or going seal 2. I think it's foolish to say too much since we know so little, yet I think that the author will give us a believable answer. Now, this all hindges on the idea that his "realism" and your "realism" are somewhat on the same level.

Personally I think the author has the final say, if he says Lee is fully healed(doubtful)...then that's what it is. It might contradict what you believe the series has shown, but that the way the author wants his world to operate. It might be a breaking point for you and you'll search for another manga to read, with more realism.

That's my 2 cents

[Kyuven]

well said Asmedaus
people expect realism in a world where people conjure frogs and other animals out of thin air and where monkeys can turn into sticks and people can summon trees out of a roof...

[Sethi]

Originally Posted by Kyuven

well said Asmedaus
people expect realism in a world where people conjure frogs and other animals out of thin air and where monkeys can turn into sticks and people can summon trees out of a roof...

Well it's not like we expect realism it's more along the lines:

Spoiler:

Tsunade the greatest medical nin said it herself that the operation would be difficult only she could do it and that Lee would had to pass through extensive rehabilitation, if she hadn't said it i would be like, Yeah ok the operation was a sucess Lee is back great, but since she said it i am more like Lee is back already what the hell is that.
I think he survived the operation but was worried for his friends so he probably sneaked out to get them without making any rehabilitation at all i am thinking that he is risking is life out there, so if he dies in the end of the fight i'll not be disapointed at all

[GreyArea]

Originally Posted by Kyuven

well said Asmedaus
people expect realism in a world where people conjure frogs and other animals out of thin air and where monkeys can turn into sticks and people can summon trees out of a roof...

Its a question of consistency, not realism.

Spoiler:

Saying 'this guy is injured, and cannot fight, he will have to have an operation which has an even success rate, and will take extensive rehabilitation afterwards', then throwing that person into a situation they could only really be in at the height of their fitness, has nothing to do with realism. Its just down to inconsistency.

[Asmedaus]

Originally Posted by GreyArea

Its a question of consistency, not realism.

Spoiler:

Saying 'this guy is injured, and cannot fight, he will have to have an operation which has an even success rate, and will take extensive rehabilitation afterwards', then throwing that person into a situation they could only really be in at the height of their fitness, has nothing to do with realism. Its just down to inconsistency.

We don't know enough for the charge of incosistency stick, nor do we know if Lee is in "height of his fitness". There is too much unknown for us to be able to make any hard facts about the situation. All I wanted to point out is that the explanation,whenever it comes, does not need to be realistic given our interpretation of realism. The world of Naruto is different, and the explanation might be far fetchted...I don't know...but it could be and you can either say the world is that way, or that the author has made an incosistent mistake. Yet again, incosistent according to what? It's his story.

Of course if its too inconsistent then it might be that no hard facts will be able to be made about the story at all. I say we just wait and see which way the explanation goes. I think it'll be a good explanation, the author has so far delivered a good story.

[aho]

Its a test

Spoiler:

Tsunade saying that the surgery is 50-50, and that Lee could die, was all a test to see how strong Lee's will was. Lee could only continue to be a strong shinobi if he had the courage to fight for his dream. Thus the surgery wasn't complicated at all. And Lee passed, by saying he would take the surgery.

[Merco]

If that was the case... would Tsunade REALLY be the type to screw with both Gai and Rock Lee for so long pretending the surgery was serious when it wasn't? ... I mean I'd figure Jiraiya to be that type, but Tsunade?

If you're talking about more of a symbolic sense, then I could see what you mean, the whole Rock Lee scenario is reminding me more and more of The Bruce Lee story.

Granted Rock Lee isn't having a rematch with Gaara, proclaiming that he can beat Gaara in 60 seconds... but still, the similarities are rather obvious (well... minus the extensive rehabilitation Bruce Lee really went through after he broke his back).

On a side note, I probably should have used a better phrase then 'pretense of realism', Grey had the right idea of what I was saying.

(Edit: Oh man, how funny would it be in the next manga for Rock Lee (assuming he's authentic) to say, "I shall defeat you in 60 SECONDS!")

[That Other Ninja]

This spoiler sh** is annoying. Having to click just to read some text. WEAK!

You ppl STILL can't just sit back n let it come to fruition can u? Gotta brainstorm all feasible possibilities til u die huh? Hahahah... well, at least it's clear there's a healthy level of appreciation for Naruto.

[DJ*]

Originally Posted by Merco

Spoiler:

Sasuke was really only effected with a genjutsu, so all Tsunade really needed to heal was his mind. Same with everyone who was hit with the Mange Sharingan.

Spoiler:

Not really adding much to the thread, but, Sasuke wasn't only hit with mange sharingan. Itachi also broke Sasuke's arm, because he was getting in the way.

[Merco]

Spoiler:

ah, I forgot about the broken arm thing
Anyways, well sasuke's arm had a few weeks to set while Naruto was looking for Tsunade and training to learn the Rasengan.

While he probably would have had another couple weeks to make sure his arm set back firmly, with someone like Tsunade, it probably could have been easy for her to strengthen the bone.

[GreyArea]

Originally Posted by That Other Ninja

You ppl STILL can't just sit back n let it come to fruition can u? Gotta brainstorm all feasible possibilities til u die huh? Hahahah... well, at least it's clear there's a healthy level of appreciation for Naruto.

Hi, welcome to the Discussion forum

[ayekappy]

Spoiler:

I agree with the Lee must die theory. It is forshadowed in his conversations with Gai that death would be a better option than not being a ninja at all. His operation could have went bad so Tsu gives Rock regeneration so that Rock can go out and save his friends. Rock knows he will die eventually from the sapping regeneration will do, but he can go out in true ninja style vs. a very strong opponent. I wouldn't be suprised seeing all 8 gates open. This would symbolize sacrifice and death. It would also complete the losses that have happened in all of the fights except Shika's and Naruto's(at this point at least)... ambiguous death. Rock will probably be the real death and all the other ones will have experienced something close to death, thus making them true chuunins, I wouldn't be suprised if all of the surviving Genins (excluding already Chuunin Shika) ended up being titled chuunins when they come back.

[Pendragon2879]

Spoiler:

Wow, I never thought about that before buy you guys are right. There is really no proof that Itachi killed off the entire clan. All we have is that Sasuke awoke and saw that everyone was dead except Itachi. I can't even remember if Itachi was covered with blood. The more I think about it, the more unlikely I think it is that Itachi killed everyone. I don't care how strong he is, an entire clan isn't going to get in line to be slaughtered by a youngster. At first I assumed the sharingan helped, but surely, others in the clan had to have had a sharingan. Maybe Itachi observed the entire thing. O this is gonna riddle my brain for a long time. Time to reread the manga.

[Merco]

Originally Posted by ayekappy

Spoiler:

I agree with the Lee must die theory. It is forshadowed in his conversations with Gai that death would be a better option than not being a ninja at all. His operation could have went bad so Tsu gives Rock regeneration so that Rock can go out and save his friends. Rock knows he will die eventually from the sapping regeneration will do, but he can go out in true ninja style vs. a very strong opponent. I wouldn't be suprised seeing all 8 gates open. This would symbolize sacrifice and death. It would also complete the losses that have happened in all of the fights except Shika's and Naruto's(at this point at least)... ambiguous death. Rock will probably be the real death and all the other ones will have experienced something close to death, thus making them true chuunins, I wouldn't be suprised if all of the surviving Genins (excluding already Chuunin Shika) ended up being titled chuunins when they come back.

*summons the best sarchastic voice he can muster*

No no no no no....

Rock Lee is supposed to triumph over Kimmimaro, the way he's supposed to die is by a brain adema after trying to make a kung fu movie...

Victim of too much chinese food and soda... combined with a fatal aspirin.

*sarchastic tone completely deflated*

alright, bad joke...

Spoiler:

But I honestly think Rock Lee has more value then just a few moments in the Chuunin exam... if this isn't an illusion, then Rock Lee would probably be injured after this... but no matter what happens, If Tsunade knows that if Rock Lee wants to get out of the hospital and would kill himself if he overexerted where he wouldn't otherwise, there is no way she'd let him exit the hospital.

(on a side note is it me or did Rock Lee look more badass then the last time we saw him)

[GreyArea]

Originally Posted by ayekappy

Spoiler:

I wouldn't be suprised seeing all 8 gates open.

Spoiler:

He can only open 5 gates. He hasnt exactly had time to train or practise since he got kicked in by Gaara, so if he magically opens 8 gates against Kimimaro, I'll be very disallusioned.

Spoiler:

I wouldn't be suprised if all of the surviving Genins (excluding already Chuunin Shika) ended up being titled chuunins when they come back.

I'd be, again, very surprised and disappointed if the genin's got promoted for just surviving this mission. Its not like its gone very well, or even, at this rate, likely to be a success. If anyone bar Shikamaru and Naruto survives, I'd expect them (Shika in particular) to be reprimanded when they get back for being so reckless and causing the deaths of comrades (lets be honest, there will be at the very least one death from this arc, so far we have four contenders).

[EbonySeraphim]

Isn't this discussion something that should be in the Manga Chapter 209 discussion?

Anyways, I said in that thread pretty much that its possible that Lee didn't go through the surgery and has discovered a way to operate without the surgery (most likely very risky). I'm sure it will be explained in a way that doesn't directly contradict what Tsunade said earlier.

[mightyme]

how about this theorry of mine...

it's not lee.. it's gai....

lee died durring the surgery (think of the drama), and gai found out about the others, and was determiend not to let any more die.....

and for some reason he did henge to be like lee.... either because he didn;t want to explain to naruto, or because he lost it a little (it is gai, it wouldn;t be beneath him to start pretendign he is lee, to keep him alive in his mind)


I really hope it's not lee.... that would be pretty weak... even if it kills him fighting, or injurs him again.. it just wouldn't be good.... it would be repetitive

[GreyArea]

Originally Posted by mightyme

how about this theorry of mine...

it's not lee.. it's gai....

lee died durring the surgery (think of the drama), and gai found out about the others, and was determiend not to let any more die.....

and for some reason he did henge to be like lee.... either because he didn;t want to explain to naruto, or because he lost it a little (it is gai, it wouldn;t be beneath him to start pretendign he is lee, to keep him alive in his mind)


I really hope it's not lee.... that would be pretty weak... even if it kills him fighting, or injurs him again.. it just wouldn't be good.... it would be repetitive

I hope it is Lee, now that he's there, Kishimoto just needs to explain it. There's no practical explanation for why anyone would pretend to be Lee. If anything, ithats the person most likely to arouse suspicion in Naruto's mind (if someone was trying to decieve him). Gai wouldnt do something like that, either.