Macross Delta - Episode 24 Discussion / Poll

[HirouKeimou]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

It's all about conflicting feelings.

I guess we'll find out.

I mean, if this is something important about Windermere physiology, it's never explained.

And I don't know if Mikumo is responsible for Freyja not crystallizing prior; all evidence points towards this: Dangerous situation + extreme stress + emotional issues = crystallization speeding up. Because, if you really look back on prior episodes, the bomb has been dropped in the last 2 episodes: They're on enemy lands (practically unarmed), captured, placed on trial for a determined execution, and even once rescued, everyone is forced into their roles as singers and pilots respectively as if nothing is going on and... it's all within like an hour of real time. The stress is very high. And no cool down periods either.

And prior episodes did amplify Freyja holding conflicting emotions; however, she did not crystallize even a little on Voldor or Alfheim (especially here); so it's debatable how their lifespan connects to their abilities and/or their runes and it's something I've been dying for the anime to clarify.

[Gravitas Free Zone]

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

And oh my god, it is an orchestra piece of Ichido Dakeno Koi nara and now I hope it's on the 2nd OST!
.

I thought it was part of "Rhapsody in C Major" from the first OST.

[Mistyclear]

Is it just me or does Berger's lines sound like a setup for a movie or new television series?

And despite the Windermerians supposedly being superior in combat how could they not hit someone running in a straight line.

Also I'm glad my ears heard correctly that it really was Ichido Dake no Koi Nara.

[Benigmatica]

Honestly, I think Windermere shouldn't rebuild Wright's VF-22 in the first place. Now, they paid the price as Arad piloted it and rescued Hayate, Freyja, and Mirage. Also, they should have just killed the prisoners via a firing squad instead of walking them toward the abyss. What are they thinking?

Meanwhile, looks like Walkure won't be as effective now that Makina is in critical condition, Mikumo being used by Roid, and Freyja is starting to age.

[Triple_R]

I never thought it was possible, but after watching this with subs, my take on Windermere has probably lowered even further. What a complete and total sham trial.

Windermere is ran by disgusting manipulators (Roid), cowardly or bloodthirsty children (Heinz), hotheaded pricks (Bogue), legalistic sociopaths (the three Winds), and warmongering soldiers (all the remaining Aerial Knights).

But kudos to Hayate, Mirage, and Freyja for calling these people on their BS. And I have to applaud all three for caring more about each other, and/or about achieving peace in general, than about their own lives. None of them even pleaded to have their own life spared, really. And I like how Freyja managed a pretty cutting insult of Heinz even if she never intended to insult him.

If Kawamori was aiming for sympathetic antagonists, then he has failed big time (aside from Cassim), in my opinion. On the other hand, if he wanted antagonists that would rile up the audience and get us pumped up for their possible defeat, then mission accomplished! And really, that can be a good thing. I will be cheering over every Aerial Knight shot down, over Roid's downfall, and over Heinz losing power, should either of the above happen.

Very good episode for our protagonists. Good Walkure bonding, and very emotionally strong moment after Makina was shot. Hayate and Freyja's protectiveness of each other was crystal clear here, and the stage has been set perfectly for a romantic confession between them in Episode 25, should Kawamori choose to go that route.

As a big Freyja fan, this episode makes me somewhat more hopeful. I think she's heading for a happy ending, or a glorious one, though perhaps not both.

Mirage kept a cool head and made good points. While it's awfully late, a rivalry between her and Herman could be good for her. Herman is probably the least reprehensible of the remaining Aerial Knights, but he's still going along with his leadership's evilness, so I'm fine with Mirage shooting him down. Could be a good climatic moment for her character, if it happens.

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Maybe it's not so much stress as it is conflicting feelings. All three of them, Heinz, Kassim and Freyja have conflicting feelings about what they're doing. That's probably what's killing them.

What makes you think Heinz or Freyja are conflicted? Heinz didn't seem to show much doubt over his rulings in this episode.

Originally Posted by foxbox360

Dig Your shout out to Dark Knight return.

Thanks! I'm glad you liked it.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

What makes you think Heinz or Freyja are conflicted? Heinz didn't seem to show much doubt over his rulings in this episode.

Freyja has been conflicted since the whole Hayate thing started. She wants to sing, but her singing might harm him. That's always weighing on her mind.

And Heinz has his doubts about the war. He might look like he's fully set on this path, but if you go rewatch from the beginning of the show, you'll see he always had some doubts.

[Benigmatica]

By the way, seems that Berger Stone has left Windermere now that his service is no longer need. Seriously, he and the Epsilon Foundation are gonna watch the conflict while counting their profits!

On the other hand, I haven't heard about the NUNS ever since. I guess Kawamori wants to show how Windermere are a bunch of fools for this week's episode.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Benigmatica

By the way, seems that Berger Stone has left Windermere now that his service is no longer need.

It's quite possible that Berger never fully realized just how crazy Roid really is, but now that Berger is cluing in on it, he wants to stop Roid and get the hell out of dodge.

Either that, or Berger has his own master plan that he's working towards.

[Benigmatica]

The question is how will Berger stop Roid... unless he decides to just watch him fail miserably.

Meanwhile, I wonder where would Lady M show up unless Kawamori-san won't show her at all?

[Tempester]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

If Kawamori was aiming for sympathetic antagonists, then he has failed big time (aside from Cassim), in my opinion. On the other hand, if he wanted antagonists that would rile up the audience and get us pumped up for their possible defeat, then mission accomplished! And really, that can be a good thing. I will be cheering over every Aerial Knight shot down, over Roid's downfall, and over Heinz losing power, should either of the above happen.

Aside from Roid (who's definitely the big bad Grace-equivalent of Delta) and the heavily indoctrinated shitters like Bogue and the twins, I doubt Kawamori is aiming for the Windermereans to be the type of absolutely irredeemably terrible villains that you're supposed to love seeing BTFO'd by the heroes. This is not due to their actions (which are actually very villainous and would make some classic evil villains give a big thumbs up to) but in *spite* of them. This show is operating heavily on the importance of FEELINGS, thus even if these Windbags are enslaving entire worlds and trying to conquer the galaxy, their feelings to strike back against the evul evul forces that once oppressed them are pure, thus they will either be shot down reluctantly by the heroes or they will be redeemed and see the error of their ways through UNDERSTANDING and Freyja's song.

At any rate, I'm disappointed in Kawamori for going this path. If he wanted sympathetic antagonists, he should have written them more similarly to the Zentradi in the original SDFM and given them a similar extended arc where they redeem or change themselves, not attempt to write the Windermereans as semi-sympathetic while simultaneously making them cross the moral event horizon into douchebag villainy several times. It seems like every decade Kawamori's head goes further up his ass as he gets more obsessed with environmentalism and moralfaggotry in general and it begins to taint his shows all the more. He definitely has some talent as a director but his intentions are really getting in the way of the story and maybe it's time for him to hand the director's seat to someone who is less blinded by their ideals; Watanabe Shinichiro co-directed Macross Plus and it was glorious as a result, give us something like that dammit!

Originally Posted by Triple_R

"I want you to remember Heinz, in all the years to come, in your most private moments, I want you to remember my song in your rune. I want you to remember... the one girl that beat you." - Freyja Wion, in Episode 26.

(yeah, probably won't happen, but a man can dream )

Yeah, a line like that is not happening in a Kawamori show.

[Uribatake]

Originally Posted by Dash_Hunter

Berger helped Xaos, but is it just me or did they changed his voice actor?

Yes, they did. Keiji Fujiwara's taking a leave for medical reasons, so Mitsuru Ogata replaced him as Berger's voice actor.

[Ernietheracefan]

Originally Posted by Uribatake

Yes, they did. Keiji Fujiwara's taking a leave for medical reasons, so Mitsuru Ogata replaced him as Berger's voice actor.

I hope he's OK..

And Bogue, can you die in Hayate's hand now..?

[SleepingTerror]

Yeah. Windermere royalty + pilots are trash. It really sucks for the rest of the planet.
I bet they'll all die except for Bogue.

[Beqa]

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

On Mikumo, it's more than confirmed she is a rebuild of the original Star Singer. However, I'm more concerned with this coming out all at the last minute and is very conflicting. For one, who the hell is Lady M and how did she obtain this "object" which she used to revive Mikumo? This is becoming one hell of a conspiracy war. However, Roid insisting Walküre is a cover for Mikumo is pointless because episode 21 proves Walküre formed prior to Mikumo even being on the playing field. Then again, he could be grasping at air here.

When Mikumo in chapter 16-17 mentions remember the winds of Windermere we can see that there is an obvious inconcruencia here, why ?, because the last time humans were on the planet was 7 years ago. That simple phrase was enough to turn on the alarm, at least as far as I'm concerned so I can not say that came out of nowhere but still very rushed.

With regard to Walkure is a cover for Mikumo. They may be two situations. Roid may refer to covering the presence of Mikumo with their voices or see time if possible, going to a more complex conspiracy, which actually form Walkure decided to use cheekily Mikumo skills.

[Father Hentai]

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

Even more afraid to rate this episode now that it's subbed so I'll wait till next week...

So basically, because our lovely trio are not NUNS or military, the trial is staged for their execution, the nice little treaty doesn't apply. And god, again, if Bogue does not shut up (at least hold him in contempt for disrupting a conversation Heinz is having, damn it).

They are executed because they stand between windermeres political goal and fights them back. At this point it's difficult to blame Heinz, because those who spoke their guilt was the judges, who are the executive power at this moment. Heinz has not much personal opinion here unless he wants to make himself vulnerable by following his "heart" rather than windermere laws. All three wings spoke that they are guilty, so maybe they are the one to blame. Not Heinz.

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

Then, Berger explains they tuned the VF-22 to fly... granted, this is something more than likely us non-Japanese oriented people didn't understand in the raw; however, I don't understand the logic of full loading it. And, Berger is withdrawing from Windermere? This is... I guess he's not a villain? Okay, a new unanswered question of what is the point of Berger now? And, a little bit more on who Wright is to Arad: a Captain/Commander. During the first time watching the episode without subs, I'd been wondering if I heard wrong on the honorific Arad gives Wright; I'm not.

I'm not sure, but if Berger is supplying also NUN, he may have been ordered back because of maybe Lady M? Would not suprprise me, but he remains a sly fox for me.

Arad has always spoken with great respect for the man who was his superior.

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

On Mikumo, it's more than confirmed she is a rebuild of the original Star Singer. However, I'm more concerned with this coming out all at the last minute and is very conflicting. For one, who the hell is Lady M and how did she obtain this "object" which she used to revive Mikumo? This is becoming one hell of a conspiracy war. However, Roid insisting Walküre is a cover for Mikumo is pointless because episode 21 proves Walküre formed prior to Mikumo even being on the playing field. Then again, he could be grasping at air here.

The bombing on windermere done by Wright was only a decoy for example? My bet is still that he did this not because to end the war but to prevent a superweapon to be used.

[magnuskn]

This episode is stupid. Windermere is stupid. This entire show is stupid.

Now suddenly Heinz has limits on his powers? When he could just declare war without consulting anyone?

I'm not even that interested anymore in seeing justice done on Windermere, because this entire show is a clusterfuck of epic proportions. What is the theme of this show? What is the point? So far as I can see, this is a series of events where things just happen and the protagonists react. That is fine for real life, but a television show should have a coherent story and theme.

I'm skeptical at this point that we'll get the standard Macross ending, unless they finish off the story in a movie. Although I won't mind at all if Bogue gets his stupid screamy girl-beating self blown up in ep 26.

But what a waste of a Macross show. I really have to question what the hell Kawamori was going for and where it went wrong.

[Gravitas Free Zone]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Now suddenly Heinz has limits on his powers? When he could just declare war without consulting anyone?

He's still nine years old and has been manipulated by other people the whole time. Respecting the judges would be showing respect for the existing system, it's not like we've seen Heinz using his royal powers to have no homework and ice cream at all meals. And his most prominent advisor is off playing with his new girlfriend, so no help there.

[HirouKeimou]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

I really have to question what the hell Kawamori was going for and where it went wrong.

I believe his cancelled original plans for a movie followup to the first 13 episodes of Delta spurred an overload of overflowing ideas for future Macross' and all of it exploded onto the screen in one big BOOM!

It's my vision of it.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Gravitas Free Zone

He's still nine years old and has been manipulated by other people the whole time. Respecting the judges would be showing respect for the existing system, it's not like we've seen Heinz using his royal powers to have no homework and ice cream at all meals. And his most prominent advisor is off playing with his new girlfriend, so no help there.

It still reeks of plot convenience to me.

Still, at least Kawamori ain't exactly softening the Windermerans up for the great group-hug finale of the show, so maybe it won't end all with flowers and aces for them. That would please me greatly.

[HirouKeimou]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

It still reeks of plot convenience to me.

Still, at least Kawamori ain't exactly softening the Windermerans up for the great group-hug finale of the show, so maybe it won't end all with flowers and aces for them. That would please me greatly.

Regardless of the adults' choices of Windermere in the series, I'm concerned about how it'll end for the children of Windermere, especially if all of Windermere is punished or eliminated. It's one thing for killing those involved; however, I believe I'll be sick if babies or young children (ages 1 through 10, at most) are held responsible, too. So I hope a little bit of sympathy will be held for them...

Other than that, I'm all for killing off Bogue (even if people in Japan still love him), arresting Keith (who is on the border of understanding now) and Heinz (killing a child is a sin in my eyes even if he's not like so in the anime, sorry), and arresting and/or eliminating the other Aerial Knights and building a new government system for Windermere civilization. No elimination of an entire race, however, asserting dominance as punishment.

I don't know if it'll play out like so... however, it is Macross and coexistence is a big trend for it... so we'll see.