Fate/Apocrypha - Episode 24 Discussion / Poll

[shmaster]

Jeanne should really shut up.
What she pointed out are NOT the flaws of Shirou's plan.
Do not underestimate the 3rd Magic Heaven's Feel. It can true immortality possible and everyone happy.
The flaws of his plan are somewhere else.

The problem with Shirou's plan is that... well.
By this point we should all know what will the universe do to a time line when it achieves true paradise?

Oh, and even if the time line is not trimmed away after Shirou succeeds, there is still the problem of the mana cost to activate Heaven's Feel.
Shirou stated that the grail has to drain mana across the planet from the leylines to fuel Heaven's Feel.
...Does not he notice that he is making Earth of Steel to happen faster by doing this?
Even if the humanty became true immortal, how much happiness they can have in that chaotic waste land that's Earth of Steel?

[Twi]

Again, they don't point that out at all in Fate Apocrypha that a time line gets trimmed. It only became a known thing in Extella, which retroactively makes it bad. Someone who doesn't have expansive info won't know that, which is a problem in the medium you'd think could be remedied by the fact that there are several magi and some of whom were scholars in the clocktower.

And really... the land doesn't matter. Leaving aside in the anime he mentioned taking the magical energy from their bodies Medea style, he's transitioning them from physical to mental beings. It's basically the opposite of Avicebron's goals really. What does it matter if the physical world is ruined as long as humanity as a whole are saved to him? The planet only has a couple of hundred years left in her anyway and one of her biggest issues was humanity surviving after she's gone. Could thought-forms really be considered to be alive?

Originally Posted by Ruki0089

Never really novel... But Sieg is truly... Erm... Stupid mc? Failure mc??

I don't think any of us called him that in particular... or at least not so blatantly, but compared to the people around him... he doesn't really stand-out.

[4th Dimension]

Originally Posted by Ruki0089

Never really novel... But Sieg is truly... Erm... Stupid mc? Failure mc??

Neither really. Considering that he is basically a newborn, he still doesn't even approach the level of stupidity Shiro could sometimes (a LOT of times) show. And he isn't a failure. He did what he could.
He is just soooo bland. As others said there isn't much to him. He is basically there just as someone to remind Jeane of her own life and fate by having some of her traits, and for her to fall for him. His borrowing of powers really is just there to make him plot relevant after that, and dare I say to make him a ready reader insert.

They did make some effort to try to explain his reasons for fighting and such, buuut IMHO those didn't amount to much, and compared to the rest of the case he REALLY pales in comparison.

In Episode 10. Even though Fran wasn't aware of Sieg's presence while casting Blasted Tree to finish off Mordred with no success, the Blasted Tree's lightning of life jolted into Sieg's corpse outside near the blast radius, not only restarted the heart of Fafnir Siegfried implanted into his body, but also has Fran's essence from the Blasted Tree manifested inside Sieg's body - further enhanced his Magical Circuit to match the Servant's power. Nevertheless, Fran has been longing for someone else to accept her, hoping someone could pass her torch.

That was evident from Sieg able to exceed the usage limit of Balmung as Siegfried against Karna, as well as did not get exhausted when Astolfo drawn energy from him to use the defensive barrier NP to the end to destroy all the Hanging Garden's defense system.

I as I said am new and not the greatest fan of Nasuverse. So I'm the best and worst thing for this show. I don't really know the background material, but at the same time I don't really care if sacred cows of Nasuverse lore get slaughtered.

That being said, I never really got that from that scene. I just got it as Rule of Cool reviving someone, because in writer's mind shocking someone = revival.

So yeah, what others have said, the show doesn't really do much to explain what is going on. Like I'm not even sure it mentions why Jeane taking out her sword is a BIG DEAL for her and such.

Again I took most of this to be working of the Rule of Cool, so I'm fine with it, but the criticism of others that there isn't much to explain things in the show proper does still stand.

[Kanon]

Originally Posted by Twi

Again, they don't point that out at all in Fate Apocrypha that a time line gets trimmed. It only became a known thing in Extella, which retroactively makes it bad. Someone who doesn't have expansive info won't know that, which is a problem in the medium you'd think could be remedied by the fact that there are several magi and some of whom were scholars in the clocktower.

Would magi and servants in Apocrypha, Rulers included, even have a way of knowing about the quantum time locks and timelines getting trimmed? I seem to recall Archimedes only knew about it because he was part of the Moon Cell's maintenance system. That and him being some super genius.

[Xero8420]

I was merely annoyed of how people just being blatantly dismissive without at least cared to take a look to reasons why that happened, that's all.

But either way, Sieg isn't stand out as a good protagonist given his self-insert role in the middle of the battle. Yes, I know that. However, it doesn't dispute the fact that A-1 did a poor job on explaining important details that could have averted misunderstandings among salty fans, but they left them out that also affect Sieg's & Jeanne's characters, for example. In other words, A-1 failed to make Sieg to show some more personalities as a character compared to what was actually described in the LN. Even the Sieg x Jeanne relationship did not went deeper than it originally written.

Jeanne should really shut up.
What she pointed out are NOT the flaws of Shirou's plan.
Do not underestimate the 3rd Magic Heaven's Feel. It can true immortality possible and everyone happy.
The flaws of his plan are somewhere else.

It was more into the moral/ethical standing, mind you. Amakusa Shirou desired to "liberate" human souls from physical vessels, materialize their souls, giving them immortality & eternal paradise ultimately showed that Shirou is being pessimistic of mankind nature as a whole. Of all people, he rejected the dirty truth about the meaning of living as a human being in the physical body. Which is what Jeanne was against. She was against anyone who desire to force a change into humanity against their will. It's no different than Gil's desire to recreate human civilization through genocide.

[Twi]

I get the annoyance, but people only really look deeply into something if they have an interest in it and Fate is mostly seen as an action-heavy series. People come for the fights and rely on the adaptation to give them a sense of everything. In that case, its a failure of the adaptation. Only a handful of people have the time and patience to crawl through that sort of information, and the thing about the time lock isn't even a part of Apocrypha, but set in a story set in another AU setting... and Grand Order, I suppose. Digging through those trenches takes a lot of time and I didn't even know until I started a time-travel fic and it was brought to my attention since I stopped following the Extra series when CCC didn't get an American release.


And then, Jeanne was more against Shirou being the one to do the Third Magic. She felt that Servants, who are dead, didn't have that right to interfere. It's why she points out numerous times how Atalanta couldn't do anything to save those children and why Gilles couldn't have his mistakes forgiven by his victims. They were all dead already so nothing they could do would change what has happened. The present era belongs to those living in it, so he could only continue to protect humanity as a Servant. His punishment is basically to keep doing what he's supposed to do, but the crazy Caster version of him still exists as a separate version.

I asked elsewhere if Jeanne would have let it pass if it were a human Master making that order, and the response I got was basically that while she would have suggested otherwise, she wouldn't oppose it because then she would be doing the very thing she was against. Servants are supposed to dictate the fate of humans in the present since their stories have already ended, merely safeguard from the shadows and such. Gilgamesh overstepped his bounds in the same way as Shirou because he wasn't supposed to be around and his goal was essentially going to try and give humans the worth he felt they had in his time, where no life was meaningless because there were so few people and more threats.

Edit: Fair point, Kanon.

[bakato]

I think the idea behind Sieg was sound. His origin as a homunculus fits in with the theme of "fakes" like Karna and Siegfried while his participation in the Grail War to seek out his purpose had great potential. I personally think he and Achilles would have hit it off well what with Sieg sprinting towards his doom resonating with Achilles' own life philosophy. The problem was the execution. His character was totally underdeveloped. His interactions with Jeanne were cut out leaving their romance looking like it came out of nowhere.

As for Shirou's plan, it's a massive flaw. Heaven's Feel doesn't "make" people happy. It strictly materializes their soul, doing away with their mortal bodies and rendering them unable to die. His salvation does not equate to happiness. The way I see it he's too focused on the mortal, physical suffering people can experience due to his traumatic experience watching his people be raped, tortured, and murdered. He doesn't see that sentencing people to an eternal, immortal existence is suffering in and of itself. Kazuma Kamachi broke down the consequences of immortality in his own work.

Originally Posted by The Unexplored Summon Blood Sign

“(Civilization is built on the assumption that people die. For example, people don’t commit crimes because they’re afraid of being executed. Countries don’t start wars because they don’t want a ton of their people to die. That’s just how we think. When you get down to it, people go along with civil rights and environmental protection because the alternative could threaten their lives. But all of that will crumble in a world without death. …If that age arrives too suddenly, all the safeties we’ve put in place will fail. Kind metropolises will transform into post-apocalyptic ruins in no time.)”

<Brother. How much work do you think people have put into building up civilization this far?>

The White Queen sounded like she was questioning his sanity.

And she continued in a graceful, insane voice.

<People tend to only remember the four great ancient civilizations. There were many others and people lived happily there with smiles on their faces, but no one remembers their names. Civilizations are no more valuable than that. So why get so worked up over them?>

“(This is on another level entirely. This planet truly will be covered in desert.)”

<The age of the dinosaurs was covered in ice and came to an end. But does anyone now feel any pain for them while using their oil?>

“(But this time no one will be able to die as it happens!! This could lead to an age in which seven billion starving people crawl around a desert planet! And it will continue for centuries, millennia, and all eternity!!)”

Jeanne, as Ruler, opposes Shirou on the grounds that he has no right to dictate the future of humanity because he is a Heroic Spirit. Together with Sieg, they oppose Shirou on the grounds that his salvation renders mankind's struggle against evil with good meaningless. This is of particular importance to Sieg, whose life was saved by heroes like Siegfried and Astolfo who dedicated their lives to justice. On that note, I can't believe Achilles actually sided with Shirou. This guy rejected a long peaceful life for a short run of glory. Why would he help make everyone immortal and cause humanity to stagnate? Seriously, out of character.

As for the lack of lore and fight info, there was some serious screw up on A-1 Pictures part. The fight with the Red servants could have made more sense if they injected some flashback scenes of Jeanne teaching them Red team's skills and abilities, but I guess that would have broken the tension.

Honestly, I don't think this would've turned out well even if A1 had been more faithful to the novel. Higashide is probably the WORST author to ever write a Fate novel in the history of the franchise. Though it's not fair to compare him with the likes of Gen Urobuchi and Ryohgo Narita, Higshide's writing doesn't have a single strong point. Even the super detailed lore that's Nasu's trademark is noticeably dumbed down to disturbing levels.

[MgMaster]

I'm so conflicted about Apocrypha, though in the end it all comes down to one thing:

How awesome would it be without Mr.Self-Insert-kun.

Ah Sieg, must you be here? And as a MC? The best thing I can say about him is that he's not as god-damn annoying as FSN's Shirou. He hasn't been THAT much of a problem so far, due to how Apocrypha divides screentime between it's characters which is more similar to how F/Z does it. But of course, Sieg's time to shine had to come and it would've been all fine & dandy if that were his fight with Karna as it was expected,Karna expected it. But as it usually goes with such characters when they're the MC,they keep away from other characters. Keeping him as a supporting character would've been great. Chiron & Achilles both brought out the best in each other. Achilles strengthens Atlanta's character by making her confess that she knew her wish wasn't possible,right after she dies, etc.

Jeanne & Shirou were great rivals for a final battle ~ they even had proper build-up in the previous ep for their grand clash for crying out loud! A saint & a priest, both Rulers(Shirou was one too if I recall correctly?), a clash of religious beliefs. But that's cut short because Sieg needs to be the one to save the world no matter what.

[XFire]

As one of the like five people who actually likes Sieg, I gotta say the salt he generates is almost as entertaining as the show itself.

The actual ending is going to drive people up the fucking wall.

[Xero8420]

Originally Posted by XFire

As one of the like five people who actually likes Sieg, I gotta say the salt he generates is almost as entertaining as the show itself.

The actual ending is going to drive people up the fucking wall.

The ONORE! salt mining is strong indeed. Given some have forgotten or didn't know that Sieg got Fran's power all this time. I mean, him able to spam Balmung so often & still able to support Astolfo's NPs should have implied that

Inevitably, the salty lots are going to denounce Apocrypha as a pile of "fanfic garbage" of Jeanne x Sieg x Astolfo.

Yes, if they wanna denounce Sieg, they should denounce Jeanne, Siegfried & Astolfo as well, with the other two Servants being a hinderance to the should-have-been "COOOOL!!!" epic story if it wasn't for their naive stupidity that kept Sieg alive. Hell, even Astolfo would be "over my dead body" before Astolfo's husbando for a body bag.

Seriously, though. What bakato said here is exactly what I was trying to say. Could have put some more work on my narrative skills. Yet ultimately, it was Higashide who would be damned for the story's direction. But A-1 deserves some bullet holes for their failure for not including important key information of major characters that could have averted some misunderstandings.

[Twi]

The ending was literally written on the wall from the first 2 minutes of Episode 1, so it really shouldn't be a surprise.... unlike with Fran where they didn't inform us about that aspect of her NP. The flash-forwards, the warnings, Jeanne's last Revelation, I think I'm angry they took the mystery out of it.

[MgMaster]

It's the fact that Sieg nor any other characters throw don't even at least throw one or more reminders throughout the series or try to build a plan around the fact that he has a trump card. The explanation is there, it's always there in whatever show something like this happens, but it doesn't help when it still comes out of the blue and is presented like an asspull.

It doesn't have to be given to the audience on a silver platter, but a few simple words or thoughts like having Sieg or Franquestein's master think about the power she left 'em, how her spirit lives on in him,or some standard stuff like that ~ it'd help.

It's annoying that we have to have characters like Sieg be the MC and not a side character in the 1st place. I assume the blame lies in the japanese audience wanting these characters too much to the point where a series won't sell properly w/o em...

[XFire]

Originally Posted by MgMaster

I assume the blame lies in the japanese audience wanting these characters too much to the point where a series won't sell properly w/o em...

..........................wow.

I want you to take a good long look at that sentence.

The blame lies with the Japanese audience? Are you for real? It's a Japanese franchise. It's written by a Japanese author. It was written for a Japanese audience. It may come as a surprise to you but as it turns out their culture has a number of significant differences compared to ours. And those differences create different preferences in their audience's.

What qualifies as an interesting character differs from what we might see as one over here. That doesn't mean their standards are lower or wrong, just different. And considering that if you've watched the English sub of episode 24 already you did so illegally, you aren't really in a position to criticize them for it either.

They aren't marketing it to us. The English speaking audience is an afterthought at best. Acting like they should conform to our preferences for story telling is ridiculous.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Xero8420

The ONORE! salt mining is strong indeed. Given some have forgotten or didn't know that Sieg got Fran's power all this time. I mean, him able to spam Balmung so often & still able to support Astolfo's NPs should have implied that

Because assuming he got this random ability from a random Servant that died near him makes more sense than assuming a poorly written story had yet another poorly written element about a gary stu?

Originally Posted by Xero8420

But A-1 deserves some bullet holes for their failure for not including important key information of major characters that could have averted some misunderstandings.

How can you accept that the production studio screwed up and left out key information, and then make fun of people for not knowing that information after watching it?

[MgMaster]

Originally Posted by XFire

..........................wow.

I want you to take a good long look at that sentence.

The blame lies with the Japanese audience? Are you for real? It's a Japanese franchise. It's written by a Japanese author. It was written for a Japanese audience. It may come as a surprise to you but as it turns out their culture has a number of significant differences compared to ours. And those differences create different preferences in their audience's.

What qualifies as an interesting character differs from what we might see as one over here. That doesn't mean their standards are lower or wrong, just different. And considering that if you've watched the English sub of episode 24 already you did so illegally, you aren't really in a position to criticize them for it either.

They aren't marketing it to us. The English speaking audience is an afterthought at best. Acting like they should conform to our preferences for story telling is ridiculous.

Like, no one's telling 'em to cater to our preferences and I didn't mean it to come of as such. However, that doesn't mean we can't criticize certain aspects of an anime and point out what could be cause. But whether they think someone like Sieg is this awesome character or not, it doesn't change the fact that he makes other characters look worse,forcing the show to have them stand aside & fail where they shouldn't, just so he can be the hero.

He made the supposedly all-powerful Karna look worse, not necessarily by the fact that he defeated him, but by the fact that he was ready to face another powerful opponent like if Karna's fight took no toll on him,whereas other servants either meet their end after they defeat their respective opponent or come out considerably weakened(Achilles losing his immortality, Semiramis in her current state).

That wasn't so bad until it came to this ep and everything was going peachy until the plot demanded him to step in between what was a pretty good clash between Jeanne & Shirou. Are we supposed to praise a character that requires to plot to bend for himself,when all of the others in the same show manage to shine within the rules set by the anime? Or we could just say nothing at all...but where's the fun in that?

All that being said, I personally don't want to make any further big deal out of Sieg, as unlike FSN which is Shirou's story where him being a fairly annoying character to a lot of people causes way bigger issues, I don't think we can call Apocrypha "Sieg's story" as aside for the moments he gets like this ep, he's not in the spotlight as much as FSN's Shirou. As such, one can enjoy Apocrypha even if they hate Sieg with a passion way more than one could enjoy say,UBW if you feel the same about Shirou. Heck, I remember when it aired, I knew for the most part what I was getting myself into and tried to find enjoyment in everything else that didn't involve him, which as you'd expect,didn't work out so well...

[bakato]

Originally Posted by MgMaster

Like, no one's telling 'em to cater to our preferences and I didn't mean it to come of as such. However, that doesn't mean we can't criticize certain aspects of an anime and point out what could be cause. But whether they think someone like Sieg is this awesome character or not, it doesn't change the fact that he makes other characters look worse,forcing the show to have them stand aside & fail where they shouldn't, just so he can be the hero.

He made the supposedly all-powerful Karna look worse, not necessarily by the fact that he defeated him, but by the fact that he was ready to face another powerful opponent like if Karna's fight took no toll on him,whereas other servants either meet their end after they defeat their respective opponent or come out considerably weakened(Achilles losing his immortality, Semiramis in her current state).

That wasn't so bad until it came to this ep and everything was going peachy until the plot demanded him to step in between what was a pretty good clash between Jeanne & Shirou. Are we supposed to praise a character that requires to plot to bend for himself,when all of the others in the same show manage to shine within the rules set by the anime? Or we could just say nothing at all...but where's the fun in that?

All that being said, I personally don't want to make any further big deal out of Sieg, as unlike FSN which is Shirou's story where him being a fairly annoying character to a lot of people causes way bigger issues, I don't think we can call Apocrypha "Sieg's story" as aside for the moments he gets like this ep, he's not in the spotlight as much as FSN's Shirou. As such, one can enjoy Apocrypha even if they hate Sieg with a passion way more than one could enjoy say,UBW if you feel the same about Shirou. Heck, I remember when it aired, I knew for the most part what I was getting myself into and tried to find enjoyment in everything else that didn't involve him, which as you'd expect,didn't work out so well...

There is nothing to suggest that this turns this story took had anything to do with preferences. Your comment could be seen as racist.

As for Sieg, he does NOT make anyone look bad. In fact, his victory is nothing but heroic. What chance did a homunculus with a frail body and short lifespan stand against the mighty Karna? He was rescued by Astolfo, resurrected by Siegfried's sacrifice, able to wield Siegfried's power and go toe-to-toe with Karna thanks to Frankenstein, and neutralize Karna's ace due to Chiron's wisdom, efforts, and foresight to have Achilles' shield delivered to him by Astolfo. What was this if not heroic? This victory was theirs as much as it was Sieg's. And what does this say about Karna who needed the concentrated efforts of 4 servants to be defeated?

As for Shirou and Jeanne, Sieg arrived in the nick of time to support Jeanne spiritually. Jeanne's suicide attack rendered Shirou unable to use his Noble Phantasm, which gave Sieg a fighting chance when he could no longer transform into Siegfried.

[MgMaster]

Originally Posted by bakato

There is nothing to suggest that this turns this story took had anything to do with preferences. Your comment could be seen as racist.

I'm at a loss of words if people get offended by THAT, but I'll oblige and try to be VEEEEERYYYYYYY CAREFUL if need in future.

As for Sieg, he does NOT make anyone look bad. In fact, his victory is nothing but heroic. What chance did a homunculus with a frail body and short lifespan stand against the mighty Karna? He was rescued by Astolfo, resurrected by Siegfried's sacrifice, able to wield Siegfried's power and go toe-to-toe with Karna thanks to Frankenstein, and neutralize Karna's ace due to Chiron's wisdom, efforts, and foresight to have Achilles' shield delivered to him by Astolfo. What was this if not heroic? This victory was theirs as much as it was Sieg's. And what does this say about Karna who needed the concentrated efforts of 4 servants to be defeated?

It was having the plot bend so he can get everything he needs in order be that hero, which makes his 'heroic" journey feels cheap . He never actually worked hard himself in order to defeat the opponents he's been faced with ~ one can say he merely got lucky,being a more special homunculus that was at the right place at the right time.

And I don't think he should have much of a chance against them even as that alone undervaluates the heroic spirits that he faced. You got these men & women who've done great deeds throughout their lives in order to be considered heroes and you're telling me this one dude who's like probably like a normal human with probably some extra fighting abilities or in whatever state a homunculus of the Black Faction starts off can not only go toe-to-toe with them but defeat 'em too because he got lucky? I wouldn't consider that an extreme case of an underdog story even, just wish fulfillment. Some of it would be tolerable if he'd be a side character, but it's hard not to roll my eyes when this happens.

[XFire]

The plot didn't bend for shit for Sieg.

The guy has a body that's literally falling apart at the seams and drags himself out of a cage he was never even supposed to be aware of. He forces himself to learn how to walk on feet that spurt blood from the act of supporting his own weight to give him a chance to survive.

Siegfried sacrificed himself because that was his character and his stated wish, to be able to save someone for the sake of simply saving them. Astolfo is fucking Astolfo, he does what he wants, and what he wants is to save the person that asked for help, because he's a goddamn paladin. Every description of Frankenstein's NP punches you in the face with it's "lightning of life and death" schtick and the chance of some form of revival.

Astolfo and Jeanne both go out of their way to keep him away from the battlefield because they don't think he should get wrapped up in it, but he chooses to do so of his own will because of what he had to go through to leave and his desire to save the other Homonculi.

Sieg at no point tries to claim that he can fight through his own strength and attributes it all to Siegfried's strength, and no one ever acts like its anything but Siegfried being channeled through him that makes it strong.

Karna took a manifested Heroic Spirit (not Servant, Heroic Spirit) fhead on and owned his ass, and it took the intervention of one of the three most powerful defensive NP's in existence to give Sieg a chance to strike back. Not only that, Karna was deliberately restraining himself at first rather than simply wasting Sieg because he wanted to face the full might of Siegfried as per their promise.

And Sieg is literally running on empty while fighting Shirou. He's burned out Siegfried's power, his body is half charcol, and the only thing keeping him going is Frankenstein who's backing him up because her wish resonated with his.

Also, and I realize the anime has done a shit job of showing it, Shirou Tokisada Amakusa is weak as shit when it comes to Servants. As in, if he wasn't hooked up to the Grail Jeanne could have walked up and ripped his spine out and he wouldn't have been able to do shit. He used the Grail's power to cancel La Pucelle and sacrificed part of his already low combat power to do so. At this point he's closer to one of the Churches Executioners than an actual Servant. And he's up against a homonculus, whose magic circuits are suicidally powerful, with a perpetual motion device on overload in his chest, with the sword skills of a man who could eat Lancelot for breakfast literally burned into his body, and he still almost wins.

The lengths people go to fit Sieg into their sound byte criticisms is almost disturbing sometimes. The guy has problems, like most of his character development taking place internally (which means the anime misses a lot of it) but cardboard and Gary Stu aren't ones that fit.

[Ruki0089]

At least at least in my opinion, Shirou(FSN) much better than Sieg...

[Xero8420]

Originally Posted by bakato

There is nothing to suggest that this turns this story took had anything to do with preferences. Your comment could be seen as racist.

As for Sieg, he does NOT make anyone look bad. In fact, his victory is nothing but heroic. What chance did a homunculus with a frail body and short lifespan stand against the mighty Karna? He was rescued by Astolfo, resurrected by Siegfried's sacrifice, able to wield Siegfried's power and go toe-to-toe with Karna thanks to Frankenstein, and neutralize Karna's ace due to Chiron's wisdom, efforts, and foresight to have Achilles' shield delivered to him by Astolfo. What was this if not heroic? This victory was theirs as much as it was Sieg's. And what does this say about Karna who needed the concentrated efforts of 4 servants to be defeated?

As for Shirou and Jeanne, Sieg arrived in the nick of time to support Jeanne spiritually. Jeanne's suicide attack rendered Shirou unable to use his Noble Phantasm, which gave Sieg a fighting chance when he could no longer transform into Siegfried.

Racist or not, it's just the salty lots who think they're entitled to their own opinions & the others' opinions don't matter out with inconsideration due to their crooked perception on things they like & don't like.

#SiegDidNothingWrong

Ultimately, they're probably being upset & salty of the truth that Mordred & Kairi are the decoy protagonists, to think they should have been the authentic protagonists from the beginning to the end. This is the piece of their collective "opinions" think they're entitled to lift their fingers against Sieg. Quite frankly, though, they, too, deserves to be a part of the main cast. Or already are a part of the main cast, yet couldn't live long enough to the end.

Originally Posted by XFire

The plot didn't bend for shit for Sieg.

The guy has a body that's literally falling apart at the seams and drags himself out of a cage he was never even supposed to be aware of. He forces himself to learn how to walk on feet that spurt blood from the act of supporting his own weight to give him a chance to survive.

Siegfried sacrificed himself because that was his character and his stated wish, to be able to save someone for the sake of simply saving them. Astolfo is fucking Astolfo, he does what he wants, and what he wants is to save the person that asked for help, because he's a goddamn paladin. Every description of Frankenstein's NP punches you in the face with it's "lightning of life and death" schtick and the chance of some form of revival.

Astolfo and Jeanne both go out of their way to keep him away from the battlefield because they don't think he should get wrapped up in it, but he chooses to do so of his own will because of what he had to go through to leave and his desire to save the other Homonculi.

Sieg at no point tries to claim that he can fight through his own strength and attributes it all to Siegfried's strength, and no one ever acts like its anything but Siegfried being channeled through him that makes it strong.

Karna took a manifested Heroic Spirit (not Servant, Heroic Spirit) fhead on and owned his ass, and it took the intervention of one of the three most powerful defensive NP's in existence to give Sieg a chance to strike back. Not only that, Karna was deliberately restraining himself at first rather than simply wasting Sieg because he wanted to face the full might of Siegfried as per their promise.

And Sieg is literally running on empty while fighting Shirou. He's burned out Siegfried's power, his body is half charcol, and the only thing keeping him going is Frankenstein who's backing him up because her wish resonated with his.

Also, and I realize the anime has done a shit job of showing it, Shirou Tokisada Amakusa is weak as shit when it comes to Servants. As in, if he wasn't hooked up to the Grail Jeanne could have walked up and ripped his spine out and he wouldn't have been able to do shit. He used the Grail's power to cancel La Pucelle and sacrificed part of his already low combat power to do so. At this point he's closer to one of the Churches Executioners than an actual Servant. And he's up against a homonculus, whose magic circuits are suicidally powerful, with a perpetual motion device on overload in his chest, with the sword skills of a man who could eat Lancelot for breakfast literally burned into his body, and he still almost wins.

The lengths people go to fit Sieg into their sound byte criticisms is almost disturbing sometimes. The guy has problems, like most of his character development taking place internally (which means the anime misses a lot of it) but cardboard and Gary Stu aren't ones that fit.

They can throw their fits all they want, but it was they themselves who probably aren't interested on digesting the whole story, other than just shitposting about how this story should have ended, about their waifus, edgelord wannabes trying to act like a hardcore fans etc.

Again, because of the crooked way of analysis, they failed to consider what other characters contribute not only to the story's turn of events, but also to Sieg & Jeanne - the protagonists of the story.