Claymore Chapter 92

[Gangsta Spanksta]

Well sleepy's theory takes care of the love and hate. This chapter leaves open many possibilities and I probably won't be disappointed any way that Yagi would take it. You can give someone your love and hate, but that doesn't mean they will handle the situation as you would've. It all depends on how much Clare will love Luciella. I mean would Clare automatically kill a Teresa AB if it showed signs of being capable of humanity? If Rafaela's warning to Clare has to do with Revenge, does that maybe mean that Rafaela things her own Revenge, if there was any, was wrong? What are Rafaela's hates? When I think of Rafaela, I always wonder if she hated the org moreso than Miria-sama does. If there is anyone who has a reason to hate the org than it is Rafaela, which is part of the reason I wonder if she was loyal to Rubel or the Org. Look at Rafaela's life; she went through the no choice of being a Claymore thing that all Claymores go through. Teresa didn't like it. Teresa would've preferred her Black hair and to live and die as a human, maybe the reason of the sadness in her eyes that Clare saw. Then there was the Disaster with Luciella where Rafaela got all the blame, and then she got discarded and shunned by the org, told to not show her face, stripped of her rank and sent off into exile. She met Teresa, and saw the innocence of the girl, and became relieved when she found out she was not one of the twins. Then the org comes back to her when they need her and Rubel had to make a unusual deal with her to secure her loyalty. The way I see it, Rafaela has much more reason to despise the org than Miria or anyone.

@irvine:

Let's not make Rafaela into a good person so easily. She was nobody nice. She was the org's assassin and probably killed plenty of Claymores that probably got into trouble for doing something good. When they send Rafaela after you, she didn't seem to care about the story; she just did her job without much talk.

[irvinethearcher]

Originally Posted by Gangsta Spanksta

@irvine:

Let's not make Rafaela into a good person so easily. She was nobody nice. She was the org's assassin and probably killed plenty of Claymores that probably got into trouble for doing something good. When they send Rafaela after you, she didn't seem to care about the story; she just did her job without much talk.

Probably a good person like anakin skywalker was once. I mean her motivs were not greed or hedonism but love to her sister. In the end she became a merciless killer, the cleaner for the org.
So her pure motifs were perverted. Perhaps she simply wants clare to warn not to go this road to perdition because both are equal to each other in some way. Perhaps it is more behind all this and raf still has its own agenda but i for my part want to believe that it is this way. I mean there was probably no being alive who could understand clare better than rafaella.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

I don't think Clare would ever become an assassin in her quest for revenge though. She seems to be willing to put that quest aside when there is a life to be saved. The mistake Clare might make is to kill a personality of Priscilla that is completely innocent. They both are probably similar in that they have a cold front hiding all their feelings, but there are somethings that Rafaela does that Clare would never do, like killing Irene just because she is a deserter, and then I don't think Rafaela would risk her neck just to rescue someone like Clare does. There similar in one aspect, but Clare despite the tragedies she went through is someone who can't help but being good, despite the image she is trying to maintain, maybe despite how she wants to be. That is if Clare wanted to be like the person she was telling Raki she was. For all we know, Clare could be grumpily thinking, "Damn my goodness"

[Awakened]

Originally Posted by Gangsta Spanksta

I don't think Clare would ever become an assassin in her quest for revenge though. She seems to be willing to put that quest aside when there is a life to be saved. The mistake Clare might make is to kill a personality of Priscilla that is completely innocent. They both are probably similar in that they have a cold front hiding all their feelings, but there are somethings that Rafaela does that Clare would never do, like killing Irene just because she is a deserter, and then I don't think Rafaela would risk her neck just to rescue someone like Clare does. There similar in one aspect, but Clare despite the tragedies she went through is someone who can't help but being good, despite the image she is trying to maintain, maybe despite how she wants to be. That is if Clare wanted to be like the person she was telling Raki she was. For all we know, Clare could be grumpily thinking, "Damn my goodness"

I agree. Rafaela even threaten to kill Clare. Why will a dieing person be willing to kill someone right before they die????
Edit: It could all be part of the ploy to get Clare to release her yoki.

[irvinethearcher]

Perhaps rafaella simply wanted to prevent clare from becoming like her.
Who knows. You are right, clare is a good person despite life treated her poorly.

Perhaps for intruding and disturbing her sweet slumber and perhaps clare had to be worthy for her memorys?
But you are right, it seems that she wanted her to release yoki. But why? The AFs don#t release it when they merge.

[MalakTawus]

Originally Posted by Gangsta Spanksta

Well sleepy's theory takes care of the love and hate. This chapter leaves open many possibilities and I probably won't be disappointed any way that Yagi would take it. You can give someone your love and hate, but that doesn't mean they will handle the situation as you would've. It all depends on how much Clare will love Luciella. I mean would Clare automatically kill a Teresa AB if it showed signs of being capable of humanity? If Rafaela's warning to Clare has to do with Revenge, does that maybe mean that Rafaela things her own Revenge, if there was any, was wrong? What are Rafaela's hates? When I think of Rafaela, I always wonder if she hated the org moreso than Miria-sama does. If there is anyone who has a reason to hate the org than it is Rafaela, which is part of the reason I wonder if she was loyal to Rubel or the Org. Look at Rafaela's life; she went through the no choice of being a Claymore thing that all Claymores go through. Teresa didn't like it. Teresa would've preferred her Black hair and to live and die as a human, maybe the reason of the sadness in her eyes that Clare saw. Then there was the Disaster with Luciella where Rafaela got all the blame, and then she got discarded and shunned by the org, told to not show her face, stripped of her rank and sent off into exile. She met Teresa, and saw the innocence of the girl, and became relieved when she found out she was not one of the twins. Then the org comes back to her when they need her and Rubel had to make a unusual deal with her to secure her loyalty. The way I see it, Rafaela has much more reason to despise the org than Miria or anyone.

@irvine:

Let's not make Rafaela into a good person so easily. She was nobody nice. She was the org's assassin and probably killed plenty of Claymores that probably got into trouble for doing something good. When they send Rafaela after you, she didn't seem to care about the story; she just did her job without much talk.

What you say makes sense,but i have a different opinion.It's true that Raph has a lot of reasons to hate the org,but i think that to her all those reasons aren't really important.She hates herself too much for not being able to protect her sister,and i'm quite sure that she wasn't angry when she was treated badly by the org., 'cause she probably felt guilty.
Of course i'm not saying that she didn't think that the org. was really evil (she probably came to know a lot of nasty secrets in all those years),i'm just saying that she had no hate to spare for the others (imo).
What will be Claire's next move?Kill or save?

[Shiek927]

Originally Posted by Gangsta Spanksta

I don't think Clare would ever become an assassin in her quest for revenge though. She seems to be willing to put that quest aside when there is a life to be saved. The mistake Clare might make is to kill a personality of Priscilla that is completely innocent. They both are probably similar in that they have a cold front hiding all their feelings, but there are somethings that Rafaela does that Clare would never do, like killing Irene just because she is a deserter, and then I don't think Rafaela would risk her neck just to rescue someone like Clare does. There similar in one aspect, but Clare despite the tragedies she went through is someone who can't help but being good, despite the image she is trying to maintain, maybe despite how she wants to be. That is if Clare wanted to be like the person she was telling Raki she was. For all we know, Clare could be grumpily thinking, "Damn my goodness"

Now now, you shouldn't be that bad on Claire. Yes, she's not a good or nice person in most ways(not ALL, just most), but I think she truly believes she is innocent and not at fault, the same way Priscilla was; her tragic life is basically an excuse for the crazy things that she does.

But no, Rafaela wouldn't risk her neck for anybody or anything, unless it could have helped her get to Luciella. Claire is a tragic revenge-seeking person who tries to be good(in her own special way ), Rafalela is just a tragedy that couldn't care less about anything else.

Yes, Claire wouldn't become a servent, she wouldn't become anyone's lapdog. She wants revenge, but she's too stubborn and straightforward to bow to anyone just because they'd help her get to Priscilla. Riful made numerous offers, and she didn't join any of them. Rafaela on the other hand....I fully believe she would have turned out different.

Funny, "Rafaela" is much easier to spell then "Raphaela".

[Arturro]

As I've written already, Raphaela goal is to save her sister, or rather to save humanity of her sister. She wants her sister to die as a human being - black cards ritual murders are wery important for Claymores.
Whole dream sequence was to force Clare to ulock her true potential, Raphaela also gives her a duty to take care of Luciella (by killling her probably), and repaided Clare with her own knowledge (memories). Current Clare wasn't strong enought to do that job, so Raphaela has to "power up" Clare.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

Anyway, Rafaela has some goodness in her. The world isn't black and white like Priscilla once saw it. I think that Priscilla is willing to help Clare partially, while at the same time she has her own goals, and it could either be for someone to watch over her sister or kill her if need be. One thing, I did enjoy was how angry Clare was that Rafaela was giving her those memories and feelings.

[Prongs]

hmm what bother me most is the title of this chapter is soul link. maybe after this clare can awake some part of her body with Raphaela knowlegde of soul link. well at least seh can control her Awakened form in human mind.......

just ......... guess

[irvinethearcher]

Originally Posted by Gangsta Spanksta

I did enjoy was how angry Clare was that Rafaela was giving her those memories and feelings.

Do you think she was really angry about it? I had more the feeling that she was overwhelmed by all the information and all the emotions that it caused her pain.
I don't hope your right because i misinterpreted the chapter than a bit

[Shiek927]

Originally Posted by irvinethearcher

Do you think she was really angry about it? I had more the feeling that she was overwhelmed by all the information and all the emotions that it caused her pain.
I don't hope your right because i misinterpreted the chapter than a bit

Angry may not be the right word. She probably was to a degree; Claire isn't happy about things that are never part of her control. She didn't ask to go inside the mind, she didn't plan to fight Rafaela, or get her memories. She wants to do everything herself, and have everything given to her through things she did. It's why she was quick to escape Irene before she pushed her down. She's a very stubborn person.

The answer could also be that she's simply overwhelmed, and it looks angry trying to take everything in.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

That's an angry expression and she says, "Rafaela You..." If Rafaela is upset about someone trespassing in her mind, then how do you think Clare feels getting her mind fscked with.

[irvinethearcher]

"Rafaela You..." means "Rafaela You...<dirty word>"?
I have seen that quite often now and wondered what it means.
It is probably nothing someone would enjoy. According to raffaella it was necessary to prevent her from making that mistake.
I can't wait to see what this mistake is. I hopa yagi does not let us wait to long to reveal it to us. Not like miria's secret for example

[Shiek927]

Originally Posted by Gangsta Spanksta

That's an angry expression and she says, "Rafaela You..." If Rafaela is upset about someone trespassing in her mind, then how do you think Clare feels getting her mind fscked with.

She's not going to complain when she wakes up and finds herself stronger.

But like I said, it's not something she expected or wanted. When she's in situations beyond her control, more so then simply not strong enough to fight her opponent Claire loses it and bites back like a bear trap and doesn't let go. It's why she went berserk when Ophelia kept messing with Raki or Riful kept toying with her about Priscilla.

It doesn't take much to set her off. . If she were in school, she'd probably be picked on alot just to see how she'll react

[camilla]

@everyone: good observations, theories and speculations.

I've taken some time to digest and reread the chapter and all the translations only to come to realize the more I did this the more the opinions I had and came to accept on it changed and started to contradict the ones with the others in a matter of minutes. Long story short ... I'm dead in the water.

I can't but agree with Awakened and share his point of view on Raffaella, though. I don't trust her either. Yes, I was of the opinion she was also a good person because of the deep love she had for her sister and her feeling guilty for what happened to her and the Org's HQ partially destroyed and trainees killed in that accident and that she couldn't die without having seen her in action with her sword, which somehow she showed to Clare in her mind. But can we believe her when she said she was gonna die?

A part of me wants to believe all she did was to help Clare 'cause she was capable of defeating her and, as a consequence, she gave her her know-how as a reward. And I find all your beliefs and guessings about the "mistake Clare was making", "made" or "would make in the future" to be valid. But something's bugging me. Can the mistake Clare was making also be the fact that she was physically strong enough to defeat her but wasn't mentally strong enough to refuse Raffa's emotions and knowledge in her mind and body thus allowing Raffa to take control of her whenever she wanted and do as she pleased -- live on in Clare's mind, and become a threat for the ghosts and others opposing the Org? We don't know what Raffaella might have discoved during all those years she spent wandering around the island. And can we see this as a contrappasso Clare had to endure because of her intrusion in Raffa's mind?

Something else that impressed me about Raffaella is her sang-froid ( I know she lost it when Clare used the quicksword ) and determination, her fight and kill style as if she knew nothing else and nothing else even interested her. I found her more intimidating than ever and literally gave me goose bumps. Brr

[irvinethearcher]

Originally Posted by camilla

@everyone: good observations, theories and speculations.

I've taken some time to digest and reread the chapter and all the translations only to come to realize the more I did this the more the opinions I had and came to accept on it changed and start to contradict the ones with the others in a matter of minutes. Long story short ... I'm dead in the water.

I can't but agree with Awakened and share his point of view on Raffaella, though. I don't trust her either. Yes, I was of the opinion she was also a good person because of the deep love she had for her sister and her feeling guilty for what happened to her and the Org's HQ partially destroyed and trainees killed in that accident and that she couldn't die without having seen her in action with her sword, which somehow she showed to Clare in her mind. But can we believe her when she said she was gonna die?

A part of me wants to believe all she did was to help Clare 'cause she was capable of defeating her and, as a consequence, she gave her her know-how as a reward. And I find all your beliefs and guessings about the "mistake Clare was making", "made" or "would make in the future" to be valid. But something's bugging me. Can the mistake Clare was making also be the fact that she was physically strong enough to defeat her but wasn't mentally strong enough to refuse Raffa's emotions and knowledge in her mind and body thus allowing Raffa to take control of her whenever she wanted and do as she pleased -- live on in Clare's mind, and become a threat for the ghosts and others opposing the Org? We don't know what Raffaella might have discoved during all those years she spent wandering around the island. And can we see this as a contrappasso Clare had to endure because of her intrusion in Raffa's mind?

Something else that impressed me about Raffaella is her sang-froid ( I know she lost it when Clare used the quicksword ) and determination, her fight and kill style as if she knew nothing else and nothing else even interested her. I found her more intimidating than ever and literally gave me goose bumps. Brr

Really good comprehension. What bugs me is why clare wanted to go after lune from the start and had this feeling of having to talk to rafaella? Could raf called her from this distance?
And how could clare cause a tremor to the newly awakened mind of raf by only sensing her?
Okay we can see clare make a grimace when she first feels raffaella standing before rifuls lair. So perhaps this was the truth. But what drawed claire really to her?
and why did rafaella not react to renee?

[Gangsta Spanksta]

I don't think that some of y'all get the seriousness of what Rafaela did to Clare. It is one thing for her to give Clare her memory. It is another thing for her to give Clare her emotions like loves and hates. Clare is not going to wake up happy about the Power she has gained. Clare is going to wake up very confused, battling for her individuality, trying to separate what her own feelings are from what Rafaela's are. Clare will probably lose some of who she was, because you can't be the same person if you are infused with the feelings and viewpoints of another person. So of course, Clare is going to be pissed off at that.

[Shiek927]

Originally Posted by Gangsta Spanksta

I don't think that some of y'all get the seriousness of what Rafaela did to Clare. It is one thing for her to give Clare her memory. It is another thing for her to give Clare her emotions like loves and hates. Clare is not going to wake up happy about the Power she has gained. Clare is going to wake up very confused, battling for her individuality, trying to separate what her own feelings are from what Rafaela's are. Clare will probably lose some of who she was, because you can't be the same person if you are infused with the feelings and viewpoints of another person. So of course, Clare is going to be pissed off at that.

Can't argue with that. When she wakes up, she's going to be one very confused person; Her and Raciella won't be too different. Raciella will wake up confused on who she is, where she is, what's going etc, as if she was a baby or amnesiac person(assuming she has a measure of intellect). Claire however, shouldn't suffer anything permanent. Once she gets a hold of herself and focus, she should be able to sort out the memories that are obviously hers, and the others that obviously don't have her at all.

I doubt she's going to suffer anything long-lasting after this.

[irvinethearcher]

Originally Posted by Gangsta Spanksta

I don't think that some of y'all get the seriousness of what Rafaela did to Clare. It is one thing for her to give Clare her memory. It is another thing for her to give Clare her emotions like loves and hates. Clare is not going to wake up happy about the Power she has gained. Clare is going to wake up very confused, battling for her individuality, trying to separate what her own feelings are from what Rafaela's are. Clare will probably lose some of who she was, because you can't be the same person if you are infused with the feelings and viewpoints of another person. So of course, Clare is going to be pissed off at that.

But she will not even have time to think about all this because when she awakens she will be in this dungeon and near to hear will be some unknown entity and outside will be riful, dauff and perhaps some abyssal feeders who probably still trying to get to riful and perhaps make a little stop where she lives most of the time and her smell is all around.
You think rafaella gave her memories so that clare would be a good babysitter.
But perhaps she did it so that clare could learn from it. That it will be a painful experience should be clear by now but for me this is probably the only way she would give up on trying to go after priscilla.
Or perhaps rafaella wanted both? Who knows - we will have to play the waiting game

By the way, raf seemed to be very concerned about chibi teresa. After this(64) chapter i changed my mind about raf. From a certain point of view she did only what was necessary. Punishing traitors who betrayed the only hope of mankind so she thought. Probably doing it for her sister's sake only helped her to kill in cold blood. I don't think she knew about the mainland and the ongoing war, but who knows?