(CR) H2O ~footprints In The Sand~

[holyman282]

Well i've watched 9 eps of this anime and i still don't see any reason that Hayami would disassociate herself from her family.

Sure her family was cruel to the villagers, but needless to say I feel they were really nice to Hayami herself, compared to say Hotarou's grandfather.

I don't see why Hayami would choose to stay in this village and be abused by them rather then going with her parents who loves her, albeit they weren't nice to the villagers.

People have all been saying that Hayami's parents aren't dead and that she chose not to live with them. It still doesn't make logical sense that she would choose not to go with her parents...

[KholdStare]

I'll say there's something we don't know here...something that greatly affects the plot, because there no possible reason for Hayami to stay. If there's not, then well, that's one of the major flaws (in my opinion) of this series, the lack of character background.

[Sinestra]

Originally Posted by Shinji103

You seem to have straying from the topic. I'm not talking about the people who realized there must be a reason for the non-surprise. I'm one of those people.

I'm talking about the viewers who complained and whined about how the lack of surprise in Takuma's "recovery." They bashed the show for it, rather than agreeing that the staff must be thinking of something.

Hum I see where your coming from about the bashing although im not as upset as you are about it. But i asked that question way back when it perceived that he got his vision back, how no one said anything how it was so accepted and so i concluded that it was plot device and a damn good one it seems. Well a lot of the people who bashed the show for his eyesight have dropped the show. Its been a long time since iv seen any hate towards H2O in here. Not everyone is smarter than the average bear its shame isnt it? But this also bring up another interesting point

Spoiler for Spoler for Takuma Ep 11:

If Takuma is still blind how in the hell did he stop the old bastard from shooting Hayami

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Spoiler for Episode 11:

After giving it some more thought, what they did in this episode is actually a very interesting way to tie this whole story together. The idea that Takuma was trying to save Hayami as a post-traumatic reflection of his need to save his suiciding mother is weird but interesting on a lot of levels. It ties in perfectly to his blindness, his feeling like he can't do anything, and Otoha's encouragement to do something about it rather than just wallow if self-pity. What he has to come to terms with now is whether the love he feels for Hayami was really just displaced love for his dead mother -- that's pretty messy! So basically, on the whole, the purpose of Otoha's intervention was to eventually force Takuma to face the inner demons that were preventing him from being able to see. I always figured that was the case, but I didn't realize how intricately connected all that had happened thus far had been. Certainly, a lot of the plot points being covered here are over-the-top, but the way the ideas are connected to each other and the message they're trying to send is quite coherent. So, though the show continues to be... what it is (I'm not even sure how to describe it exactly -- "A.D.D." almost comes to mind. It's like a rollercoaster, really.), I'm glad that there's still a logic that's tieing things together.

And on reflection, I wouldn't say that this episode would have strained my disbelief any more than any of the other episodes did. Takuma's descent into trauma-enduced temporary insanity isn't unheard of by any means. The villagers taking a shotgun to Hayami in a desperate move to wipe her out before she does more damage fits the profile of the village we've seen so far. (Remember, they don't see her as a human being. They literally consider her a bug that needs to be squashed.) Hayami's behaviour is consistent with her personality as well. So, it's all exaggerated a lot, of course (like I said, "A.D.D."), but it's within the story's framework.

Spoiler for follow up to relentlessflame's post:

You have touched on several points that i made a few pages back and i asked Deathkillz to tell me what he thought. He said he didnt see the circle i was talking but now with this episode it just confirms what i was saying. Im sure one of Takuma's problems is he feels he could not protect his mother, those feelings of wanting to protect a precious person is still with him hes just imprinting the mother aspect on Hayami. The truth is he cares for Hayami and wants to protect her but due to that image he saw of Hayami pushing his mother he need to escape reality once more. I feel in order to help Hayami and not freak out again he is thinking of his mother when trying to protect Hayami. Though its not stable it is a sign he might be getting better. Also, the outburst from him about Hayami leaving the village is a clear sign he truly cares for her.

I agree everything has been consistent just exaggerated into one mega drama, thats obviously doing its job because many including myself have gotten very emotional over this episode. Otoha's role was very important and my prediction about Takuma's story being the most F&*!ed up was right and rightfully so. I cant blame Takuma's post-traumatic disorder it could have to anyone of us. Im hoping the whole point of the story was to break the cycle of hate and help Takuma deal with his demons and learn that others do care about him its ok to move on and for Hayami to learn that its ok to be loved and its ok to stand up for yourself. I still hate the fact that they tried to shoot her but again this goes right along with the story its self so its not out of the ordinary just really emotional. I fairly confident we will get a happy ending but it may take something like Takuma getting hurt protecting Hayami and the Hirose blaming ol bastard for it.

I would like to see the cycle of sadness and hate broken to me thats the reason im watching a sad ending would be all for not if the cycle continued i would ask myself what did i take away from this series. Plus Takuma and Hayami after everything they have been through deserve happiness and a chance at a normal life

[Deathkillz]

Originally Posted by Zippicus

Spoiler for Somewhat agree, but regarding believability...:

The thing with me is that I initially had a problem with the reaction of virtually the whole town to Hayami. I mean I can understand them having some issues with her family and that's a "normal" human thing, but the degree of that reaction was a bit too much for me. Then when they built on that overreaction to move the story along it made it harder for me to buy into. It started getting really strained for me when Takuma started apparently buying into that crap contrary to his previous beliefs and actions. But honestly at this point the house of cards was already in danger of collapse to me. The attempted murder was just the final straw so to speak.

I know everything can be somewhat rationalized, I just think they tried to give the story too much bang. Had they toned it down a bit I think I would have enjoyed it a lot more. Believability in regards to the story isn't as important to me as it is to character reactions. For example a show like Da Capo isn't exactly believable, but since the characters acted in a believable manner it worked out fine for me.

Spoiler:

This is quite interesting to hear as I did have a hot debate with klash yesterday about the shotgun subject. He believed that it was over the top and unthinkable whereas I still think that it is rather logical as to what the village has done up til now. Now your view reflect his whereas mine reflect Relentless' ~ pretty interesting to say the least

Well I still say that what has happened up til now is within the series' consistancy rather than stuff that has happened which is just totally out of scope. If they got away with neglect and arson the next step for them would be murder

Takuma is whacked off his head so his reaction to hayami leaving is rather understandable. Even the scene where he beat up hayami was the work of the devil as his true intentions definitely didn't want to harm Hayami.

But it's cool to share opinions ^^

[relentlessflame]

Spoiler for More regarding believability in Episode 11:

I think the main reason people sometimes struggle with understanding the way Hayami is treated is because they don't understand this concept of not just being an "outcast" but seen as not even human. Modern society in general has sone away with most concepts of "caste" and the way you treat someone is typically based on individual responsibility/behaviour. For example, really the only time you hear someone non-criminal wish someone seriously dead would be when they're talking about some vile criminal whose crimes are beyond forgiveness. So if you take that view of people/humanity, it'll be very hard to understand how the grandfather's actions (or even those of the bullies) could seem anywhere near reasonable.

The important thing to keep in mind is that that's not the way the whole world looks at other people.

As you well know I'm sure, there are parts of the world where someone simply born into a different religion is viewed as being as worthy of the hate you or I might have for someone who slaughtered our entire family in cold blood or something. Just being from a certain country or tribe or region really can inspire that kind of hate. This is the same sort of hatred that the village had for Hayami. It was not because of anything she did at all, but simply because she was born into that family. That alone was enough for the village to treat her as less than human -- as a bug who had no human rights. If you apply the traditional Western view to that, you'd say "surely Hayami must have herself done something horrible to deserve that kind of treatment", but that's the whole point! She did nothing wrong, she was just born into a family who did. That's the crime they find worthy of death.

The whole show is putting those two viewpoints in conflict with one another. The usual Takuma represented what we think of as the more "modern" viewpoint -- that every human deserves to be treated with dignity and respect no matter their race, background, family, colour, etc. That it's actions that determine the way one should get treated. But the village elder, the villagers, and the temporarily-insane Takuma for a small time, represent what we think of as the more "close-minded" viewpoint -- that Hayami deserves to pay for the sins of her parents, and deserves every ounce of hate that her parents rightfully deserved. "The apple doesn't fall far from the tree", so to speak. One of the larger purposes of the show is to illustrate how diametrically opposed those two viewpoints are, but how even "reasonable people", in certain circumstances, can be tempted to "cross over".

Back to the shotgun. The reason it's not unreasonable is, again, because the villagers are projecting onto her all the hate they feel for what her parents did. See Yui's story as an example, and now we get the further example of Takuma. That's the pattern. They were content to treat her as lower than dirt for a while -- they were in a position of great power over her, and that can feel gratifying. But when she started resisting and posing a serious threat to the status quo, it was time to eliminate her once and for all. Again, remembering that they already don't consider her to be human -- they see her as swine; as a cockroach. Something you'd step on without an ounce of regret.

So basically, I think that's the key thing you need to remember when watching this show. Expand your cultural horizons a bit and realize that even in the world today, there are people who really do demonstrate this level of what we might consider "irrational hatred" for people for the most "petty" of reasons. That's the sort of social commentary this show is engaging in. Just because you can't relate to it in your own personal culture doesn't mean that it's "unbelievable". Just look at the rest of the world at large. In the end, though, I think it's pretty safe to say that the show itself is trying to say that normal-Takuma's viewpoint (and the one that most of us obviously share) is certainly the more enlightened one.

[Tatiana Razajev]

In terms of episode 11 what I found interesting was this.

Spoiler for 11:

In some ways the gun scene made it even clearer the most evil or if you prefer the one with the highest level of hatred is Grandfather Kagura. Since after all the other two at least hesitated at the last moment. Where as he gave it not even a second thought. So I think if you look at it that way it gives another level to the idea of them trying to kill her. Since after all death is (usually) final. So one would have to be willing to go that far. Granted it also doesn't help that Grandfather Kagura treated Hotaru like crap and cares more about the power of the family then the people in it. So even if one disregards the Kohinata factor, there are definitely things that make the guy heartless or least come off as heartless.

[Keruri]

This episode.... seeing all of this played out in motion hit far harder than the game did for me. It's really shocking, even still.

Spoiler for Therefore....:

Now can you all see why I tried to refrain from commenting on earlier episodes? I knew Takuma was blind the entire time. It was difficult imagining some of these scenes being brought to life via the anime, but.... they managed to do it. There are quite a few minor differencs from the game, by the way.

There was a hint dropped in episode 10, and I'm really surprised that nobody picked up on it. Oh well~

Anyway, I'm really looking forward to the end. Don't give up on this series yet, everyone!

[Chiibi]

Wow....this episode was so intense!

Spoiler:

They do such a good job with making the emotions of the characters very realistic....Takuma snapping and laughing after Hotaru slapped him (to which I said "NICE" out loud) was so disturbing and creepy....I mean wow! I'm glad Yui helped or tried to help Hayami-it shows that her character has really matured and now I even like her. I like Hotaru too. And Takuma's uncle. He's a good guy when he's actually serious. Who'd have thought?


A couple notes:

*Hayami really does seem to resemble Takuma's dead mother. I thought so in episode 10 and now 11 has confirmed it.

*He's been blind the WHOLE time!? "An illusion....it was all an illusion.." DAMN. HARSH.

*I really hope Grandpa dies. I don't think even Hotaru would be sad if he did. That guy is just horrible.

*Anyone surprised we didn't get any development on Maki? Is that her name? You know, Hamaji's best friend. We barely know her!

*The eyecatch was very cute.

*PULLING A SHOTGUN ON A FOURTEEN(?)-YEAR-OLD GIRL IS TOO MUCH!! I said out loud to the screen(again) "Are you KIDDING me!?"


*I think the ending will be happy. Hayami states in the preview "I now have a place to go back to."

There was a hint dropped in episode 10, and I'm really surprised that nobody picked up on it. Oh well~

Do you mean

Spoiler for 10:

The part where he noticed his vision was getting blurry?

If that wasn't it, do share! I'm not the most perceptive sometimes....

[Gameboiye]

Originally Posted by Keruri

This episode.... seeing all of this played out in motion hit far harder than the game did for me. It's really shocking, even still.

Spoiler for Therefore....:

Now can you all see why I tried to refrain from commenting on earlier episodes? I knew Takuma was blind the entire time. It was difficult imagining some of these scenes being brought to life via the anime, but.... they managed to do it. There are quite a few minor differencs from the game, by the way.

There was a hint dropped in episode 10, and I'm really surprised that nobody picked up on it. Oh well~

Anyway, I'm really looking forward to the end. Don't give up on this series yet, everyone!

Spoiler for I want to know too...:

Yeah what hint are you talking about?

[Atheuz]

Spoiler:

This anime is just beyond dumb now, but I want to see the conclusion - I have too much time invested to reject it now, but the writers of it are beyond dumb and it's really just ridiculous to watch by now. The whole city having such intense hatred for a 14 year old girl is dumb, one person basically running the whole village that's doing morally questionable things constantly(which he condemns repeatedly throughout the whole anime). The adults not having an ounce on rational sense, besides the uncle who comes from a family who was directly hit by the Kohinatas' actions and he's opening his arms to her, the rest of the village however(at least the adults) are all completely batshit insane and don't seem to be anything more than mindless drones to the old guy, completely brainwashed and flushed of all their senses besides some shreds of moral which was shown in episode 11 with the gun scene - but besides that they don't appear to be very intelligent or can't be thinking for themselves, they're judging a 14 year old girl who was what? 7? When her family did some bad things, and all their hate has to be directed on that single girl who seems completely innocent, besides being born into an influential family with a lot of power over a single village. Another thing is, you can't go blind from experiencing a trauma(Medically irrational and dumb) and you most definitely can't catch up to a girl whose been running for 10 minutes, when you're walking and have no idea where she went and then come to her rescue with pin-point accuracy and stopping the old man.

Had to vent, dumb anime is dumb.

[Gameboiye]

Originally Posted by Keruri

Spoiler for Therefore....:

There was a hint dropped in episode 10, and I'm really surprised that nobody picked up on it. Oh well~

Spoiler for Now that I think about it...:

Are you talking about the scene where they point directly to "Hirose's loser in love" (Yui) and he asks who they were talking about? OMG I didn't even notice that till now!!

[Gameboiye]

Originally Posted by Atheuz

Spoiler:

This anime is just beyond dumb now, but I want to see the conclusion - I have too much time invested to reject it now, but the writers of it are beyond dumb and it's really just ridiculous to watch by now. The whole city having such intense hatred for a 14 year old girl is dumb, one person basically running the whole village that's doing morally questionable things constantly(which he condemns repeatedly throughout the whole anime). The adults not having an ounce on rational sense, besides the uncle who comes from a family who was directly hit by the Kohinatas' actions and he's opening his arms to her, the rest of the village however(at least the adults) are all completely batshit insane and don't seem to be anything more than mindless drones to the old guy, completely brainwashed and flushed of all their senses besides some shreds of moral which was shown in episode 11 with the gun scene - but besides that they don't appear to be very intelligent or can't be thinking for themselves, they're judging a 14 year old girl who was what? 7? When her family did some bad things, and all their hate has to be directed on that single girl who seems completely innocent, besides being born into an influential family with a lot of power over a single village. Another thing is, you can't go blind from experiencing a trauma(Medically irrational and dumb) and you most definitely can't catch up to a girl whose been running for 10 minutes, when you're walking and have no idea where she went and then come to her rescue with pin-point accuracy and stopping the old man.

Had to vent, dumb anime is dumb.

LOL are you sure you watch any anime there? Pretty much every single anime ever created would be dumb according to you.

[Kefit]

Holy shit.

Takuma's gone completely off the deep end. I knew that he had some serious issues to work through regarding his mother's death, but I had no idea they were this severe. This, combined with the plot twist about his sight, casts the entire rest of the show in a different light. I'm going to have to watch this series again at some point and pay careful attention to his actions and the responses of others.

And Hayami...well, she was downright suicidal throughout the first half of this episode, which I think explains why she goaded the goon and Takuma into attacking her. She doesn't want to live anymore anyway, and what better way to end her life than in a way that will ease another's suffering? Of course, this is a very twisted way of thinking, but it fits in line perfectly with Hayami's intense, recurring guilt regarding the past actions of her family.

I'm glad to see that my prediction of Yui appearing to save Hayami from the goons was correct. Her character has grown very nicely since the start of the series, and she demonstrates that the villagers - most of them, at least - should be able to overcome their hatred for Hayami if they can just recognize the inherent humanity within her. Hopefully she and Hamaji will get a chance to help out in the final episode. They did overhear the elder coercing Hayami out of the town, afterall.

Then again, what can help out with Takuma's ravaged mind? I've really got no idea, but this series hasn't let me down with anything else, so I am expecting something very, very good. I want episode twelve now.

[Deathkillz]

Originally Posted by Atheuz

Spoiler:

This anime is just beyond dumb now, but I want to see the conclusion - I have too much time invested to reject it now, but the writers of it are beyond dumb and it's really just ridiculous to watch by now. The whole city having such intense hatred for a 14 year old girl is dumb, one person basically running the whole village that's doing morally questionable things constantly(which he condemns repeatedly throughout the whole anime). The adults not having an ounce on rational sense, besides the uncle who comes from a family who was directly hit by the Kohinatas' actions and he's opening his arms to her, the rest of the village however(at least the adults) are all completely batshit insane and don't seem to be anything more than mindless drones to the old guy, completely brainwashed and flushed of all their senses besides some shreds of moral which was shown in episode 11 with the gun scene - but besides that they don't appear to be very intelligent or can't be thinking for themselves, they're judging a 14 year old girl who was what? 7? When her family did some bad things, and all their hate has to be directed on that single girl who seems completely innocent, besides being born into an influential family with a lot of power over a single village. Another thing is, you can't go blind from experiencing a trauma(Medically irrational and dumb) and you most definitely can't catch up to a girl whose been running for 10 minutes, when you're walking and have no idea where she went and then come to her rescue with pin-point accuracy and stopping the old man.

Had to vent, dumb anime is dumb.

I'm not too sure about that...

Spoiler:

I feel that you are putting too much logic into the way the village are doing things. They have their reasons for hating the kohinatas but from an observer's point of view, they are being wrong by hating a girl. But they way they are treating the situation isn't as unrealistic as you think. Things such as exile do happen and things can get pretty nasty when they do, especially for a secluded village where their law is pretty much by what the elder says. So if they think that the girl is a demon then they will happily burn her at the stake. The power that the elders hold should not be underestimated, especially at rural areas (higurashi is another good example of this).

Their hate for hayami is unreasonable for the viewers but rationable for the adults of the village. Morals have nothing to do with it seen as the see hayami as nothing more than a pest.

As for the lost eye sige due to trauma, you are making a pretty bold statement by saying that it can never happen. A lot of things unexplainable happens in the real world, and this is just one of them. Trauma can lead to mental problems but also physical ones. It isn't uncommon for the body to want to reject memories or such then whos to say that going blind can't be an illness that came from the shock?

The final thing is just something you have to accept. If anything why didn't you moan about there being a spirit (otoha) floating around?

[therationalpi]

Spoiler for Ep 11:

This episode was certainly mindwarping. I want to know what really happened, if Hirose's been blind this whole time. Assuming we've been seeing his memory of the events, what actually happened? Did he have his stick the whole time? If so, where is it now? Usually for huge twists like this, if hints have been around the show, you will see a flashback to several of them. In this case, we only saw one such 'hint.' Not sure if it's worth going back to find them, but if anyone wants to list a few, I'd appreciate it.

As for the rest of the story. I'm worried that we will see a bad end. The ending of 11 leaves many possibilities. Perhaps Hirose wants to save Hayami as restitution for not being able to do anything for his mother, perhaps he thinks Hayami is his mother, or maybe he just wants to be the one to pull the trigger. The only options for a good end are that something happens to the old guy, Hirose and Hayami manage to get away from the village together, or everyone somehow comes to their collective senses. The last one seems unlikely, the preview seems to imply the second, and the old guy dying would be quite satisfying.

On the bad-end side, things would just need to stay on the same track. We'll see a body count and a list of new arrivals for the psychiatric ward.

H2O has been far too unpredictable so far for me to give a solid prediction as to what way the show will end.

[holyman282]

Originally Posted by Atheuz

<rant omitted...>

Well off course those anime weren't... If they were then i'm sure the writers of h20 would sue those shows for plagiarising their story.

Rationality and logic are all relative especially when it comes to movies, series or anime. As long as the writer establishes a environment that's self sustainable and doesn't contradict itself, then you really can't ask for anything more.

Like no one ever said, "hey robot assassins that go back into the past to kill a person doesn't exist" in the Terminator movie, why? Because it's been established that in that scenerio they do exist.

In terms of h20, it was established quite early on that

Spoiler for spoiler:

The whole village hates Hayami, to the point that thugs would actually punch a girl. If that's the case, if they'd go as far as that, i'm sure they can go even further.

In that sense the environment was established in the first ep and was consistently sustained throughout the series.

[siber222000]

Spoiler:

wow, ep 11 was good twist o_O... so during whole time, *real* hotaru gave dream of being fun to hirose or somethin and he was *imagining* stuff? dang~ can't wait for next and final episode... hopefully that old grandpa die and go to heyal~

[atividia]

Originally Posted by Atheuz

Spoiler:

The whole city having such intense hatred for a 14 year old girl is dumb, one person basically running the whole village that's doing morally questionable things constantly(which he condemns repeatedly throughout the whole anime).

This was fairly common throughout the late 19th century in the United States against African Americans, as well as during World War II against Japanese Americans within America. Dumb attitude to hold in real life at this time? Sure. Dumb attitude to hold in real life back then? People of that era would argue otherwise. Dumb in the story? Absolutely not. Why can't a common real life scenario be used in a story?

Originally Posted by Atheuz

Spoiler:

The adults not having an ounce on rational sense, besides the uncle who comes from a family who was directly hit by the Kohinatas' actions and he's opening his arms to her, the rest of the village however(at least the adults) are all completely batshit insane and don't seem to be anything more than mindless drones to the old guy, completely brainwashed and flushed of all their senses besides some shreds of moral which was shown in episode 11 with the gun scene

The Communist Revolution in Russia. Sound familiar?

Originally Posted by Atheuz

Spoiler:

Another thing is, you can't go blind from experiencing a trauma(Medically irrational and dumb)

Yes you can. Ever heard of a psychosomatic disorder? Another scenario similar to this is when, in Shion no Ou, Shion (the protagonist shougi player) can't speak at all after having witnessed the murder of her parents and being told by the murderer not to speak. It's totally possible for emotional trauma to disable a particular function, and if you need the science behind it, here it is:

Emotions operate mostly in the subconscious mind. You can't actively decide to be sad or happy without self-hypnosis (the closest thing you could do is to think of a happy, sad, angry memory and let your emotions kick in from there). Self-hypnosis, however, isn't just a matter of listening to a tape repeating certain things while you're falling asleep. Severe emotional trauma can also trigger a state where the subconscious mind is able to accept direct external or internal manipulation (basically what a hypnotic state is). It's analogous to operating from root within *nix; everything is open to change. Other things are also deeply rooted within subconscious processes, such as your five senses, movement, speech, memory associations, etc.

Now, if a person suffers from deep emotional trauma and decides that he/she doesn't want to have to see such an event ever again, just that thought could make the person go blind, and that's probably what happened in Takuma's case.

Sorry for picking your argument apart like this. Some of the points you make are totally valid in the context of modern western civilization, but things are much different in other parts of the world.

[Zippicus]

Originally Posted by atividia

Sorry for picking your argument apart like this. Some of the points you make are totally valid in the context of modern western civilization, but things are much different in other parts of the world.

I just wanted to comment on this part. It's true that things are different all over the world, but we're talking about modern Japan here, not some 3rd world nation. They have a modern legal system that frowns upon things like arson, assault, and murder. Even the most brain dead adult would have to realize that the "but she's a cockroach" defense isn't going to cut it if the long arm of the law comes knocking.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Zippicus

I just wanted to comment on this part. It's true that things are different all over the world, but we're talking about modern Japan here, not some 3rd world nation. They have a modern legal system that frowns upon things like arson, assault, and murder. Even the most brain dead adult would have to realize that the "but she's a cockroach" defense isn't going to cut it if the long arm of the law comes knocking.

This was discussed in this thread way back in the beginning of this thread. It was mentioned that, even today, this sort of behaviour isn't unheard of in some parts of rural Japan. It isn't as big of a stretch as you seem to think. That being said, who says this is "modern Japan" anyway? They never said that, did they? It's the world of H2O. The most important thing is that the characters behave in a way that's consistent with the world established in the story. Would it have been better if they had started the story with "In a distant galaxy far, far away..."?