Ecchi, fanservice, and current shows

[False Dawn]

Originally Posted by Radiosity

Sorry, but I have to ask if you've actually watched Utawarerumono? Cuz that was from an eroge and there is basically zero ecchiness, but lots of awesome story + blood and fighting. If you want something serious with a touch of comedy and no major fanservice, go watch it, seriously.

Kanon and Air were both H-games and neither of them have the slightest bit of ecchi (well, unless you count the bit with Kanna in the Summer Special, but that's only like a minute's worth).

I think there is a general trend that studios stick in fanservice when they can't think what else to put in the story - look at Tonagura for instance, which was a steaming pile of horse manure, but possibly had the most ecchi ever in one anime. But then, is it true of all series? FMP has some very fanservicey moments (Tessa, Chidori in the shower, etc) and yet that's a pretty good anime. Elfen Lied's renowned for its nakedness but that's probably one of the best violent anime series in recent years.

I think that it just becomes harder to be able to pull off fanservice when the storyline actually revolves around it. Although I quite liked He Is My Master (mm Mitsuki), it's never going to win a greatest storyline award because it literally revolved around the girls being made to wear skimpy outfits and being filmed in the bath. I think only older series managed to get it right - Ranma 1/2 and Love Hina springing to mind... since then, though, the quality of fanservice within anime hasn't really been all that great.

But maybe that's also because we're noticing it more now? After all, so many anime series now have fanservice in (even Nana when it was almost non-existent in the manga!) that when it isn't done well, we're more aware of it.

[Sorrow-K]

Originally Posted by False Dawn

Kanon and Air were both H-games and neither of them have the slightest bit of ecchi (well, unless you count the bit with Kanna in the Summer Special, but that's only like a minute's worth).

Then again, they were so completely nonchalant about it that it might be arguable whether that's fanservice at all.

I'd hardly call fanservice a new phenomenon, or that it's even risen in recent times (the number of anime being produced these days has increased, so unless I see numbers suggesting otherwise, my guess would be the percentage of fanservice in anime is about the same as it was a decade ago). But it's existence certainly doesn't determine the quality of an anime and its story... or even effect it I'd argue, unless it's extremely intrusive. Mai-HiME had fanservice, yet it was still more than capable of telling a really compelling story. Similarly, Futakoi was devoid of fanservice, and its story stunk.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Forbin

I thought Higurashi was a light novel that was picked up into an anime (Like Panic). I wouldn't consider a novel an amateur work.

Well, this is off-topic, but I think you're confusing terms a bit. It began as a series of doujin (non-pro/self-published) visual novel games (not light novels), whose popularity led to drama CDs, manga series, and eventually the anime. Amateur doesn't mean "bad" in this case, it just means they weren't getting paid to make the games (i.e. it wasn't their "job") and were just doing it on their own without a publisher.

[Radiosity]

Originally Posted by Forbin

I thought Higurashi was a light novel that was picked up into an anime (Like Panic). I wouldn't consider a novel an amateur work.

Taken from ANN's comments on this series:

Originally Posted by AnimeNewsNetwork

Based on a popular, amateur created murder-mystery computer game.

As relentlessflame also just pointed out.

Originally Posted by False Dawn

Kanon and Air were both H-games and neither of them have the slightest bit of ecchi (well, unless you count the bit with Kanna in the Summer Special, but that's only like a minute's worth).

Yeah, I know. There are plenty of eroge-anime conversions that aren't filled with ecchi, Uta was simply the first one that came to mind. It's kinda annoying when people tar all eroge with the same brush just because the original games themselves had hardcore content. Not aimed at anyone here, just a general observation of how a lot of people seem to perceive these animes.

Sorrow-K - that's the updated Kanon. Don't forget there is the older version which had no ecchi fanservice at all, which is likely the one False Dawn was talking about. But I'd also agree that ecchi in this particular context isn't an issue: She just happens to be getting ready for school, it's not an intentional panty shot while she's fully clothed or anything like that, so I don't personally count it as being ecchi in the slightest.

[False Dawn]

Originally Posted by Radiosity

Don't forget there is the older version which had no ecchi fanservice at all, which is likely the one False Dawn was talking about.

Yes, I'm old skool I don't actually think I've seen that bit with Nayuki getting changed in the new Kanon yet - or if I have, it completely passed me by, showing how nonchalant the scene is (it makes a good screenshot though...)

Similarly, Futakoi was devoid of fanservice, and its story stunk.

Whereas Futakoi Alternative had loads of it (and some kind of subtle twin incest) and was a much more interesting venture

It seems there are no real generalisations for it - it'd be like saying, those anime that have an evil character are immediately worse because it becomes a black and white version of good vs evil. And we've seen too many anti-heroes/flawed villains to think that's true.

[NoSanninWa]

Indeed. So far it seems to be the concensus of this thread that fanservice can be either good or bad. It can add to a show or detract from it. It can be part of a good show or part of a bad show.

In short, it is just one more element of an anime rather than the sole defining feature of any show that contains it. We need to judge the entire show, fanservice and all. As it is many people either avoid or flock to a show just because they have heard that there is a lot of fanservice. That is strange behavior to take based on such a thing.

Perhaps fanservice is something to whose existence we pay far too much attention.

[DaFool]

I don't even see the point of this issue.

I like ZnT and was turned off by Sumomomo immediately. It had nothing to do with the fanservice, or even by the supposed 'quality of writing'. ZnT just had themes that appealed to me, and Sumomomo didn't.

The primary thing is first, does the anime have elements that appeal to me (i.e. am I considered among its target audience). If so, then I watch it. At that point, then that's when the quality of writing or features (i.e. fanservice, blood / gore, etc.) make or break it.

[Lord Raiden]

There are only a couple anime, which I forgot to mention before, that do mix ecchi and a good story well. But they're like a handful among thousands. One of my favorites is Da Capo. Well done story and the ecchi is done as though it were natural. If they did ecchi like that, I'd have less of a problem. But when it's a patch for bad writing, and especially when it's done in a totally unnatural way, then I definately have a problem. And I understand that companies have to make money. But it's my experience that you should NEVER sacrifice ANY of your story for any reason whatsoever. Maybe it's just professionalism on my part, but copping out and throwing in something to distract the user from your lack of creativity or in some cases, pure lazyness, just isn't right. It's an insult and afront to the viewer/reader. It's one thing if you tried and failed. But fewer of these studio writers are even trying. They're just bailing out at the first sign of trouble.

[Skyfall]

IMO you are taking this far too extreme I have yet to see an anime that i would consider ruined because of ecchi/fanservice.

[uplinkhack]

Originally Posted by DaFool

I don't even see the point of this issue.

I like ZnT and was turned off by Sumomomo immediately. It had nothing to do with the fanservice, or even by the supposed 'quality of writing'. ZnT just had themes that appealed to me, and Sumomomo didn't.

The primary thing is first, does the anime have elements that appeal to me (i.e. am I considered among its target audience). If so, then I watch it. At that point, then that's when the quality of writing or features (i.e. fanservice, blood / gore, etc.) make or break it.

same here...ZnT had something that attracted me but obviously not its fan service...Sumomomomomomomo is just simply strange and i didn't like it....

i agree with Skyfall too as i haven't seen an anime that was ruined cos of fanservice...i guess the most extreme i've seen was Amaenaideyo? but it wasn't really that bad anyway~

[Forbin]

Originally Posted by uplinkhack

same here...ZnT had something that attracted me but obviously not its fan service...Sumomomomomomomo is just simply strange and i didn't like it....

i agree with Skyfall too as i haven't seen an anime that was ruined cos of fanservice...i guess the most extreme i've seen was Amaenaideyo? but it wasn't really that bad anyway~

Too bad uplink, Sumomomomomo episode 4 is as funny as a good episode of Girls Bravo. Truly the use of nudity is wayoverboard, but the 4th episode made me laugh for quite a long time.

Amaenaideyo was a POS. Amaenaideyo Katsu was a very funny show. But then Katsu was Ichigo100 with Monks. The original was Futakoi with panties.

[Zappster]

Originally Posted by False Dawn

I think there is a general trend that studios stick in fanservice when they can't think what else to put in the story - look at Tonagura for instance, which was a steaming pile of horse manure, but possibly had the most ecchi ever in one anime. But then, is it true of all series? FMP has some very fanservicey moments (Tessa, Chidori in the shower, etc) and yet that's a pretty good anime. Elfen Lied's renowned for its nakedness but that's probably one of the best violent anime series in recent years.
.

Well, Tonagura was based off a manga(correct me if I'm wrong) so I'm not sure it is an example of a show in which a studio sticks in fanservice when they can't think of anything else. I'd imagine( I haven't read the manga) that they stuck reasonably close to it, again correct me if I'm wrong.

[False Dawn]

Perhaps blaming it on the studios was the wrong thing to do - maybe it's a case of more manga creators relying more heavily on fanservice to sell their product. I don't think it's necessarily a point of who to blame though. It's just a fact that there are lots of series that substitute fanservice for actual decent plots and characters.

I'd say that generally, fanservice characters can be quite bland and uninteresting - they probably look quite good (or loli ^_^) but haven't any real personality to speak of. Notable exceptions would be characters like Karin and Mikuru Asahina, etc...

[Kikaifan]

I think I've got a pretty wide strike zone for anime and so the degree is much lessened, but I basically agree with the sentiments of the OP. Fanservice in shows that aren't meant to be fanservicey from the start, or the plots and tones of which don't warrant it, it a major blight.

To me it's all about suspension of disbelief I guess. Random contrived nudity or pantsu during serious scenes just scream 'lol it's anime don't take it seriously.' I enjoy taking it seriously, so I resent that stuff.

[Cal-Reflector]

Have decided to check out Popotan after the comments in this thread; after two episodes, I'd say its pretty good. Feels a little bit like a cross between... Ichigo Mashimaro and Kamichu but with Oppai.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Lord Raiden

But it's my experience that you should NEVER sacrifice ANY of your story for any reason whatsoever. Maybe it's just professionalism on my part, but copping out and throwing in something to distract the user from your lack of creativity or in some cases, pure lazyness, just isn't right. It's an insult and afront to the viewer/reader. It's one thing if you tried and failed. But fewer of these studio writers are even trying. They're just bailing out at the first sign of trouble.

I danced around trying to say this in my first post (on the first page), but I guess I'll be even more blunt the second time around. Is it truly "professionalism", or is it really just (misguided?) idealism on your part? You're basically saying "solid storytelling should not be sacrificed at the alter of salability". You are positioning yourself as the arbitrator of what constitutes a "lack of creativity" or "pure laziness" because, after all, you're a "writer" and (ostensively) a "professional". I'm not necessarily doubting the truth of those statements (for all I know, you could be an immensely successful writer, and I truly mean that without either cynicism or doubt), but I am questioning why you feel they give your opinion weight. (In other words, as the old saying goes, "who died and made you King?" (username pun not really intended, but pitiful anyway))

The customer is indeed not "always right", but they are the customer. The customer buys what it buys, and writers work to meet that demand. For every anime production, I'm sure there are "circumstances" -- things like requests from the financiers, orders from the director, limitations by the TV networks, expectations of the customers -- and the job of a professional writer is to balance them all. There are many potential measures of success and failure here (and truly, only so many can be applied objectively without knowing all of the circumstances involved), and yet you haven't provided any objective evidence that anime series would be more successful (by any objective measure) if they didn't "sacrifice their story", other than your own sense of "professionalism" (read: idealism?).

If you feel "insulted" or "affronted" when watching a certain show, then you at least have the same privilege as everyone else: turn the stuff you don't like off. Beyond that, if you're going to go from the "anime would be better if" angle, it's really up to you to make the case. So far, you might as well have said "anime would be better if they aired more shows I like". That's, of course, a perfectly fine discussion-starter for these forums - people will certainly agree, disagree, and discuss. Maybe that's all your goals was too -- only you can know that. But so long you sit above on your "professional writer" perch, looking down on the "dumbed-down" shows and, at least by extension, those who like them, you're very unlikely to learn much from the continued discussion, which, at least in my opinion, isn't doing your "professionalism" any favours.

My two cents, your mileage may vary, food for thought, and all that good stuff. I'm not trying to attack you at all; just trying to get you to think things through.

[Lord Raiden]

relentlessflame: I'm not trying to say I'm the all around authority on what's good and what isn't. I'm simply trying to say that in the vast majority of cases, ecchi ends up being the fallback for bad writing. Ecchi can exist side by side with a good story, but it should never be used to patch up a bad one. Da Capo was a good anime with excellent writing. The ecchi that was included was done properly and only stood to accent and improve the anime. Problem is, too many others don't go that way. The writers start flubbing things and immediately go for the quick fix instead of solving the real problem.

Skyfall: I'm not trying to claim that ecchi ruined the show. Sure, it's done that with a few shows, but in the vast majority of cases it's used to try to detract from a poorly written script. As I said to relentlessflame, if the script is good and the ecchi is done properly, it makes a good anime. But to use it as a patch for bad writing is deplorable. And it seems to happen a lot more these days. That's my biggest gripe. It's kind of like the same system hollywood has used for years. They're like "my gawds, this script sucks! We gotta do something! Hey, lets add a love interest and some sex scenes! Yeah, that'll save the movie!" Uh, wrong.

Hope that cleared up what I was saying. If not, I can try again. ^_^;;

[uplinkhack]

Originally Posted by Forbin

Too bad uplink, Sumomomomomo episode 4 is as funny as a good episode of Girls Bravo. Truly the use of nudity is wayoverboard, but the 4th episode made me laugh for quite a long time.

Amaenaideyo was a POS. Amaenaideyo Katsu was a very funny show. But then Katsu was Ichigo100 with Monks. The original was Futakoi with panties.

lol ok time to get back to sumomomomomo and review my thoughts anime is for enjoyment~

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Lord Raiden

relentlessflame: I'm not trying to say I'm the all around authority on what's good and what isn't. I'm simply trying to say that in the vast majority of cases, ecchi ends up being the fallback for bad writing.

Hahaha... no, it's fine; you're not budging at all in your opinion. Your statements once again reinforce that you think you know what bad writing is, and that you think bad writing is "the real problem" that ecchi is covering up. That's fine; it's an opinion like any other. All that's left now is for people to question your tastes on which shows have "good writing" and which shows have "bad writing", and argue back and forth on whether ecchi in a given show is a "quick fix" or "done properly". That arguing could go on forever, no matter how "right" you are.

You mentioned Da Capo; I happen to like that series a lot, including the Second Season, which a lot of people decry for having "bad writing" (which, granted, doesn't have much to do with "ecchi" in this case). I've tried to convince people that the writing is (for the most part, at least) actually logical, cumulative, consistent, and symbolic, but some people simply didn't like the way it turned out so to them it was "bad writing", "wasted potential", and so on. My point is, as soon as you start attributing your opinion/point of view to "objective" qualities, people will resist because it implies that their opinion is being devalued. After all, who would admit to liking a show that "everyone knows" has bad writing? Not everyone shares your values about what is and isn't important in the writing of a show, and certainly not all will share your opinions about "good" and "bad" on a case-by-case basis. So, what I'm asking is: are you willing to concede that what you call "bad writing" may actually be "good writing" to someone else, and vice-versa? Otherwise, there'll never be any common ground here. You don't really have to respond, but it's just something to think about.

[Bloodseeker]

I haven't read the entire thread, but from the little that I have read, I agree with its direction. Ecchi shows (as in shows where "ZOMG HAWT ANIME GRLS!" is the main attraction) generally tend to suck pretty bad, with soulless, forgetable casts and the same cheap jokes and plot twists that we've seen a thousand times before it. Even when they have interesting concepts (Ikkitousen), the end result is usually the same. (there are exceptions though... I liked Labyrinth of Flames and Najica wasn't terrible)

Also, while attractive girls may have a positive effect on my opinion of said girls and the show itself as a result, both in the short term and in the long run (good character designs are important... would your favorite anime character still be your favorite anime character if they looked like generic shounen anime character #5059333849572649572086? Would Kaede have such a strong following here if she looked like a Gungrave chick? Would Onizuka still be one of the biggest badasses in anime if he looked like Mr. Kimura from Azumanga Daioh? Of course, a good character design doesn't do much if the character is forgetable outside of their appearance. You need both.), but whether they show off those attractive girl's assets probably won't have much of an effect outside of fapping. Case in point: Tessa's cuteness adds a lot to the character and to parts of the show, but I don't remember either for the scenes with showing her showing up in a bikini or taking a bath. Rider's sexy figure made her cooler and brought up sympathy where there probably would have been none when *inevitable spoiler event*, but the effect still would have been there without the ass shots. Or in reverse: despite being in a show filled with attractive characters and ecchi, Hakufu's stupidity and resulting cuteness made her the only Ikkitousen character that I actually liked.

However, there are times when some degree of ecchi is necessary. Love Hina is a perfect example... Naru getting abusive over Keitaro seeing her tightly and securely wrapped in a towel or coming up through the hole in the floor and seeing nothing but her stockings was just awkward and made her seem like even more of a prude than she was in the manga. Without the ecchi factor, it doesn't work.