Why is Gundam Seed Destiny so controversial?

[Eidolon Sniper]

Originally Posted by Demongod86

However, you have to realize that Lacus's influence is just that...INFLUENCE...if you want an example of a Lacus type of person, loved by all, beautiful, influential, pristine, kind, etc... then here is one: princess Diana. Sadly, tunnel+car+paparazzi+bad driver>princess Diana. But Kira doesn't suck at driving, and if Lacus ever died in a car accident like that...also, Mia's influence was complimenting Durandaru Gichou. Think of Durandall as a sort of Bill Clinton-like guy, minus playing all the wrong holes. He was a politician that was basically loved by the commonwealth people. Lacus was ALSO held in high esteem. Up to this point, she was the daughter of the leader, and a songstress that was NOT oversexed and didn't sing corny songs. (Gee...the concept is almost impossible to conceive in our day and age here in the US of A). Her reputation as a moderate young politician was well-earned, as was her influence.

No way. Princess Diana is NOT Lacus. Princess Diana >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>...(stretch to infinity) Lacus. She made it on her own not just because she had a title of the Princess of Wales. Princess Diana actually did something too, not just sit around in a deserted island with a zombiefied person and uttering one-line sentences while at it...

Lacus didn't earn any reputation as a young politician, if ever, she earned a reputation as the leader of a rebel alliance, which is not the way for one to be trying to earn his way into the political big league, isn't it? She never showed any political magic, just some of her Lacus dust spiels. Lacus dust spiels NOT political magic. It takes more than pixy dust to make entire political systems go crashing down just for the hell of it. Unfortunately, most of the so- called "politicians" in the CE universe are just as dumb as the populace who elected them.

Kira being unrealistic? I think he was being an ideal big brother, gentle guy and all, that doesn't really want to hurt people, but wants to help his friends and family out, and is an all-around genuinely good guy. In fact, if I ha to pick any anime character to relate my best friend to, it actually WOULD be Kira. Kira is perhaps somewhat exaggerated in some of his traits, like the rapid pace at which he can learn a mobile suit, but that's what makes him exemplary. His brain, and gentle heart. I'd say Kira has very realistic traits, but perhaps some of them are taken to an unrealistic extent. But in order to be willing to believe a story, we must give some leeway for the writers to do something extraordinary with the characters.

Which became a tad bit exaggerated now, didn't it...

I'd rather be with psychotic, angsty types. They're much more interesting to be friends with. And besides, it's boring to be with the same friend who always stared at the sea for 2 long years...

Overall, it was the reused scenes and actually Shinn that ruined it for me, the reason being the utter FAILURE of a character he was. Fukuda had MULTIPLE opportunities to write Shinn's scenes out better, and to have Shinn think about Athrun's words more. Shinn NEVER did until the VERY end when it finally penetrated Fukuda's thick skull to actually have Shinn just STOP for a second, detach himself from the situation, from his angst-on-two-legs self, and think about things in the bigger picture. In fact, I think that in episode 34, if Shinn actually felt he LOST that fight, that he could have become a much bigger character. Because the way GSD went, Shinn won a battle nobody else possibly could have--and lost the war for his character to become anything decent.

And you seem to keep missing the instances wherein Athrun could've said something to Shinn, but always come out like he needs a respirator everytime he sees his friends on the other side get blown off or whatever.

Athrun had a million chances to try to get some sense into Shinn, but he failed miserably at it.

I don't think I want to see Final Plus...

Overall, I think the writing for Kira and Lacus was bang on. They stayed consistent to their idealistic characters with the power to change the world (and went and did it). It's just that Fukuda screwed up with everyone else. Durandall went from being a well-meaning guy to "Athrun isn't being my pawn, let's kill him. DIE, LACUS CLYNE!!!" in episode 36, which was a real "WTF?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" for me, and then he's somehow magically behind EVERYTHING, from the Junius 7 drop, to sending out terrorists against Lacus Clyne, to staging the armory 1 heist, to knowing Jibril has Requiem and letting him fire that shit on the PLANTs for more public support.

No. They weren't consistent. What they did was no different than what was Dullindal was planning to DO, but since they're the "good guys", they're entitled to being "right" all the time, no questions asked.

How could you seriously change the world when you try to correct every single person you meet on the street for doing the "wrong" thing to do something?! And contradicting yourself at that, saying they were fighting for freedom, but actually they're fighting so that they could get a hold on the entire universe themselves? A universe that actually kowtows to their every whim? And when they find someone who was doing something "wrong" against what their views as "right", they instantly proclaim him as an evil parasite/beast/whatever that deserves to be cleansed and punished for going against their Infinite God and Goddesshood?!

Dullindal's descent to the Dark Side was very badly done, and all those you stated were only revealed to be the truth in magazine interviews and never were shown explicitly in the series.

Overall, I just think that the writers of GSD wrote themselves into a hole. Because they failed to have Shinn change and tempted people with Kira, they split the fandom, had people wanting Kira Kira Kira, so they just said "screw the new cast" and essentially trashed them. A FAR more INTERESTING ending would have been for Lacus and Durandall not to actually come to all of these huge blows and have Durandall turn to Darth Gichou with his two deathstars, but to invite Lacus Clyne to a conference and talk out a plan that has compromises from both of the idealists--Durandall's belief that humanity would be much happier with a system that would organize them, and Lacus's belief that humans should just be free to do whatever the hell they want.

But they can't really go against Lacus sama now, can they, because they'll get Strike Freedomed.

Besides, how could Lacus agree to such a conference when in ep 13 they already labeled him as EVIL?!

I mean considering that Durandall's system had in mind to structure all of humanity, perhaps a Destiny+Lacus plan would have people be free to do what they wished to do, but strongly suggested based on their genetics what to do. The funny thing is that both of my grandfathers were engineers, and my dad was also an engineer in Russia. And now guess what? I'm majoring in Information and Systems ENGINEERING. So if I had to look at myself, I could say that I'm proof that Durandall's Destiny Plan CAN work to a slight extent.

So Dullindal wasn't entirely wrong after all. See, you're contradicting yourself here.

I just think that the writers had great ideas, but COMPLETELY fucked up in the presentation. I really wouldn't put the blame on Kira and Lacus. They stayed true to their characters, and though a bit godly, I happened to appreciate them far more than the unthinking Shinn or Darth Gichou.

You say you're a writer, right? Shinn and Dullindal's complexity far outweighs the unbelievable goodness of Kira Yamato and Lacus Clyne. Think about it. If you were to create a story wherein all the cast members are a bunch of Mary Sues, where would that take you to?

And Shinn isn't unthinking. Shinn had shown several instances wherein he was acting confused, doubtful, ACTUALLY thinking. Too bad "Darth" Dully beat Athrun to him.

I'm not a fan of flat characters. Why do you think I liked Mia so much?

Meer for me >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lacus.

[Headspace]

Originally Posted by neodrag38

I thought a thread on this subject was already made.

It was but since I never said anything in it I would like to make a short list of what happened that made GSD plopped and why it sucked so badly


-Poor writing (blame director's wify for that)

-The constant one-sidedness made for poor quality battles. Such as the Windam/Shinn engagments and the Three ships alliance victory

-So much time wasted on clip shows and flashbacks

-Main charecter switch halveway in the series was quite stupid and unproffesional and even halve-assed. I couldn't even tell if Shinn was the main charecter or not

-Usage of recycled animation

-The way overpowered gundams


There are others but those are some of the main reasons

[tetsuo69]

-Poor writing (blame director's wify for that)

-The constant one-sidedness made for poor quality battles. Such as the Windam/Shinn engagments and the Three ships alliance victory

-So much time wasted on clip shows and flashbacks

-Main charecter switch halveway in the series was quite stupid and unproffesional and even halve-assed. I couldn't even tell if Shinn was the main charecter or not

-Usage of recycled animation

-The way overpowered gundams


There are others but those are some of the main reasons

i agreed with you ^^ nicely put

[Psylocke]

IMHO, GSD failed as a Gundam series because it is basically 12 phase of actual story telling and 30 over phases of fan service.
If Fukuda actually had the guts to kill off a member of the old cast from GS, it might stir things up a little and things might actually have gotten more interesting.
But rather, the new cast was tossed aside as named grunts and somebody who seemingly died in GS was brought back from the dead. Yuck!
But I still think the 1st 12 phases of GSD was good. If things had gone down another direction from there, it might have turned out to be a better series than GS.

[demon_god04]

GSD pretty much lacked direction, it seemed like the writer had a great idea at the start then suddenly changed it, but didnt work so threw together something to make the deadline......

besides the points that Headspace mentioned another thing that really killed it for me was the fact that there was no meaningful character interaction. Not just between the new caste and old but also among the new caste. the caste was so loosely linked that even if one of them died he/she can be replaced by some no name face and life will go on.

Not to mention that some character interactions seem to disappear in the next ep, like when Athrun was talking to Shinn up on the deck of the Minerva after he decked Shinn for disobeying orders.

[Demongod86]

@ Eidolon sniper: A LOT of people earn reputations from changing things from when they were rebels. How about this name: Menachem Begin...

Prime minister of Israel, former rebel against the instated British government there, and to pay hommage to WD's arguments, former selective terrorist, responsible for the bombing on the king david hotel.

Still not convinced? George Washington.

People liked Lacus Clyne because of her father's reputation. She rode that and built upon that.

Psychotic friends are not interesting. They are scary and I would rather distance myself from them. And no, just because I said there are some people that I would relate to Kira doesn't mean they stare at the sea for two years, but moreso, have that gentle demeanor about them that makes you want to be friends with them.

Athrun talked to Shinn quite a few times. Episode 16 he tried. Nothing happened really...then after Athrun was shot down, what position did he have to talk to Shinn from? When in Justice, Athrun DID a lot of talking with Shinn. Shinn didn't believe ANY of it until Athrun stopped him from killing the one last living person he cared about. And in the end, guess what? Athrun was right, because if Athrun was wrong, and Luna would have died...well...that'd really suck, wouldn't it?

Lacus and Kira trying to get a hold on the entire universe? Hence why Lacus went back to the orphanage and tried to live a completely no-profile lifestyle. Yeah..................right. That's why Kira was sitting on a rocking chair instead of flying around in the Freedom.

How can they go against Lacus if she takes no power to begin with? Lacus has always been a more passive type, just providing the tools to the people that will use the tools. She built Kira and Athrun the gundams and let them use the gundams to their hearts' content. Tell me one instance that Lacus gave a direct order to ANYONE she was close with. In fact, when has Lacus EVER said "I am right."? When Patrick Zala wanted to annihilate all naturals? Stir the people up, make them think, okay. Saying "this is the way I do things, and if you don't do it my way, I will bury you?" When has she said that?

Oh, and about Durandall...Kira just said "let's not jump headfirst into his alliance, remember that they sent coordinators to kill Lacus" though later, even Kira was doubting his own thoughts, thinking "what if Durandall really is a swell guy and it was just some assholes that wanted to kill Lacus?"

A story with all characters being Mary Sues? I had to rewrite it the first go-around due to one of my female leads (my leads are two females) being essentially flawless. Not that I mind someone like Lacus as a main character. She's much better to me than Relena "come kill me Heero" and "the inept princess that surrenders ten minutes before her brother arrives in the wing zero" Peacecraft ever was.

Shinn acting doubtful? Great...then he believes complete and utter nonsense. "Athrun and Meyrin escaped to try and defect to LOGOS and blow Operation Ragnarok by giving them Destiny and Legend's specifications and the strategy of Operation Ragnarok!"

"Oh."

And then when Shinn finally DOES see Athrun above Orb, in THE JUSTICE, NO LESS, he's STILL saying that Athrun betrayed them even though if he had any knowledge of the previous war, he'd know that Athrun was one of the key players in bringing the war to an END. Yep, he's sure thinking there. He was ready to run Lunamaria through with Destiny's palm cannon. Yep, real thinking going on there. The first time Shinn REALLY thought about things while seeing the ENTIRE picture is after Athrun finally figuratively smacked him in the head with the biggest stop sign he can find. By junking Shinn's Destiny Gundam. It was then and only then, when Shinn came off of his power trip of having a powerful gundam at his fingertips was he finally able to just cool off, look at the big picture, both from being that little kid on the ground, to being the nightmare of the most powerful men in existence, to once again, being that one guy on the ground, looking at the world objectively again.

In fact, it's ironic, because when Shinn finally actually took the time to think without Darth Gichou controlling his mind, he was able to prove Athrun right when Athrun said that Shinn was worth believing in, and that the guy was fighting for the same dream as the rest of the Clyne Faction. Sure, perhaps the ending WAS a bit of a putdown to Shinn's character throughout the series that he simply takes Kira's hand and says "yes sir, yes sir, three bags full, sir", (I would have written it as Shinn taking Kira's hand, but just saying that while they may be fighting for the same thing, there is still some issues that he still has not settled). but on the plus side, Shinn finally gets to see EVERYTHING. Not just "Freedom is bad, kill it! Justice is bad, kill it!" "Durandall is right! Big Brother Gichou is the only way!" that Rey O'Brien was just filling his head with.

And as for Diana >>> Lacus thing, Diana was popular for the same reasons Lacus is: her beauty and charisma. In fact, somehow, I think it was Destiny that Diana had to go X_X. Because she indeed WAS a living Mary Sue.

And no, Gil wasn't really evil (I was waiting to reserve that judgment until ep 36) until Fukuda just trashed his character along with the rest of the new cast.

[TrueKnight]

Originally Posted by Demongod86

@ Eidolon sniper: A LOT of people earn reputations from changing things from when they were rebels. How about this name: Menachem Begin...

Prime minister of Israel, former rebel against the instated British government there, and to pay hommage to WD's arguments, former selective terrorist, responsible for the bombing on the king david hotel.

Still not convinced? George Washington.

Don't ever bring real life situations in to GSD. Because I could state a 100 reasons why Fuckuda don't know a single crap about politics and real life situations, and besides those who say that Lady Diana was an influence? Hardly, for appease the paparazzis yes, but the major players of the world during the crap load advertisings that Lady Diana made were the White House, the Pentagon, the Kremlin, the British Parliament, the Balkans, and the soon to be born Al Qaida.

So dude, don't ever compare GSD to real life politics, because it pales.

[Kurama no Miko2003]

GSD tanked for any of the reasons stated here. It had a lot of potential going in; new cast, new situation, how that all connected with the old cast. I even thought the changes they'd made to the old cast, specifically Cagalli and Athrun, weren't so bad, writing it all off as, "Oh, they just survived a war and now they just want to go back to their everyday lives." Or something to that extent.

I questioned the reintroduction of Kira, though, if, for nothing else, his position as the "Ultimate Coordinator" (aka "Uber 1337 pilot") would've thrown off the balance of the whole series. Ultimate = best = no way Shinn could outdo him, or at least, Shinn couldn't, initially. But this whole series tanked for me the moment they shifted the focus from Shinn to Kira. I'd gotten used to the idea that, while Shinn was a bit of an arrogant little prick, he was the main character and that he'd evolve into someone worth respecting. (I actually disliked Kira at first because he struck me as an angsty wimp for the first, oh, 20 or so episodes of GS. But he changed, grew a backbone, and became more respectable in my eyes.) Shinn never got that. The writers seemed to have just scrapped his importance in GSD halfway through the series, at which point, he became an afterthought. Apparently, the writer thought it'd be easier to leave him as Durindal's pawn. But even that paled to them bringing back Mwu. That was just . . . no. It made his "death scene" in GS seem really cheap now.

And what about the EA? With the ability to make a ship like the Phantom Pain in the beginning, you'd imagine there'd be more possibilities with that; more opportunities for combat, and of course, to let Shinn shine as the main character. But the only time he really "shines" is in his 1v1 against Kira, and his "signature move" (his charge attack with the sword with Destiny) strikes me as rather bland. That said, couldn't the EA have put up a tougher fight? At the very least, they would've been capable of some very nasty sneak attacks . . . but no, they just wag their tails and lap up Dulindal's little speech about LOGOS being at fault.

And the ending . . . my goodness. A friend of mine asked me about the ending of GSD when I'd told him I'd finished watching it. I told him, "If you've seen the end of GS, you've seen the end of GSD." That ending rather lackluster. I was expecting, at the very least, a nice casualty list at the end of that, especially in the "lead cast" area. But their hesitance to kill off cast members bothers me, especially considering how willing they were to do it in GS.

And don't get me started on the mecha designs. Strike Freedom and Infinite Justice is really not all that different from their slightly less beefy counterparts, and SF really struck me as an exercise in, "How many guns can we fit on this mecha design?". Legend was basically a rebuild of Providence, at least, externally the two are (more or less) identical. Destiny is effectively a mash of the Impulse equipment sets with increased speed and damage output. And the Akatsuki? While the enemy beam reflection idea is a new gimmick they threw in, as is the protective shield it can create, it's really no different than the Aile Strike, or the Strike Rouge, for that matter. (And besides, it's Cagalli's mech . . . what the heck were they thinking when they decided that Mwu should end up with it?!)

I could go on, but I think this means I oughtta rewatch GSD and come up with a fanfic rewrite of it . . . starting with Shinn staying as the main character.

~ Kurama no Miko2003

[dom33]

Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper

So Dullindal wasn't entirely wrong after all. See, you're contradicting yourself here.

you won't belive how many times he has done that like he says he dosen't like flat charecters but characters like kira and lacus are so flat you'd think their the freakin floor!.
@psylocke and kurama no miko 2003 i agree.
and demongod86 i have the majority on my side!

[Eidolon Sniper]

Originally Posted by Demongod86

@ Eidolon sniper: A LOT of people earn reputations from changing things from when they were rebels. How about this name: Menachem Begin...

Prime minister of Israel, former rebel against the instated British government there, and to pay hommage to WD's arguments, former selective terrorist, responsible for the bombing on the king david hotel.

Still not convinced? George Washington.

Well, some gain popularity from doing that sort of thing, and some gain notoriety. And just not because you're a rebel instantly makes you a cult hero or something. The people also has to take into account the things that you've actually done for them, whether directly or indirectly. And what did Lacus actually do? Nothing, zilch, NADA. Unless you count allowing and bringing chaos into the battlefield that is...

People liked Lacus Clyne because of her father's reputation. She rode that and built upon that.

The question here is that did Lacus ever made it all on her own? So you're saying that without the Clyne name she'd be totally useless, just as Kira would be without Freedom or Strike Freedom? So without the Clyne name, she'll never get to be the leader of the Three Ships Alliance, be the dispenser of the holy Lacus dust, and wouldn't snatch Kira from the arms of his one true love?

Then that'd make her really useless then. Thanks for proving my point.

Psychotic friends are not interesting. They are scary and I would rather distance myself from them. And no, just because I said there are some people that I would relate to Kira doesn't mean they stare at the sea for two years, but moreso, have that gentle demeanor about them that makes you want to be friends with them.

They could be interesting, in some way. These people are like that maybe because they have problems, loads of problems, that they couldn't really relate to anyone else because mayber they're scared, traumatized, or what have you. I am not saying that you diss really good friends will all the right traits that make them really good friends, but if you actually have a friend like that, you would want to do all for them so that they could start believing in humanity again, right? And when they start to really trust you, it's a feeling that you can't really compare with anything else at the moment.

And if you're someone who'd rather not try talking to a person with such problems and attitudes when underneath all that arrogant, WTF behavior is an actual person crying out for help and isn't asking for more hell than what he's actually experiencing right now...then I can't do anything about it.

Athrun talked to Shinn quite a few times. Episode 16 he tried. Nothing happened really...then after Athrun was shot down, what position did he have to talk to Shinn from? When in Justice, Athrun DID a lot of talking with Shinn. Shinn didn't believe ANY of it until Athrun stopped him from killing the one last living person he cared about. And in the end, guess what? Athrun was right, because if Athrun was wrong, and Luna would have died...well...that'd really suck, wouldn't it?

That's the problem, that episode was the only instance that he actually tried to talk some sense into Shinn, and after that, there was none. I had high hopes for Athrun as mentor to Shinn, but for some strange reason, Fukuda suddenly decided to screw it.

Shinn actually wanted to hear something from Athrun because he actually respected Athrun. Shinn was the one who brought Athrun back to his old self again (well, the start of it anyway) when he talked to Athrun after the Savioring incident. And if you say a couple of sentences is long enough for Shinn to actually understand what Athrun was trying to say in the last 49 episodes...yeah right. Remember the long silence, one liners, and Dully and Rey's poisoning. There's not much a couple of sentences could actually do against this. Which is why Kira's mind raping of Rey is also .

Lacus and Kira trying to get a hold on the entire universe? Hence why Lacus went back to the orphanage and tried to live a completely no-profile lifestyle. Yeah..................right. That's why Kira was sitting on a rocking chair instead of flying around in the Freedom.

More like running away from responsibilities, more like it. The war she took part in is a war in which she must also help to bring an end to, and it didn't end after the Jachin Due war. Do you really honestly think that war is over just because the guns already stopped firing? The part after the war is where real war begins. You have to deal with a lot of people, people who suffered because of this war, people who are dicontent why the war ended up that way, people who lost everything in this war, countries affected by this war...geez, did you honestly also think that a treaty is the only solution in order to curb all these?

There's nothing that a mere piece of paper or a talk with all the leaders of the universe could do about what has happened. People are scarred from this war, and the people who caused this war, or took part in this war, should try their best, work for what they had actually tried to accomplish in the last war, and not take some time off in a deserted island saying that she only wanted a no-profile lifestyle, or deserve a break to be with a zombiefied person, or because she just wants to live a completely normal life. The reason why GSD happened is because Lacus ALLOWED it to happen. And that, my friend, is such a big to your belief that Lacus is an actual politician who, above all things personal and whatever, should KNOW that she is needed because the war wasn't really resolved at all.

And in she goes back to her full Goddesshood glory like she never really was the cause of all the shit that has happened in GSD, then fights off an "evil" madman, then declares herself Empress and Goddess of the entire universe. She didn't want to take the power? She didn't want to take power with 2 demigods at her side and a powerful country to which she allied herself with at her beck and call?

Lacus never wanted any power?



That's about the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard in my entire life.

How can they go against Lacus if she takes no power to begin with? Lacus has always been a more passive type, just providing the tools to the people that will use the tools. She built Kira and Athrun the gundams and let them use the gundams to their hearts' content. Tell me one instance that Lacus gave a direct order to ANYONE she was close with. In fact, when has Lacus EVER said "I am right."? When Patrick Zala wanted to annihilate all naturals? Stir the people up, make them think, okay. Saying "this is the way I do things, and if you don't do it my way, I will bury you?" When has she said that?

Actions speak louder than words, my friend. She didn't need to order them around, she already had them wrapped around her little finger. She provides these people with unnecessary tools that give them unnecessary power, and as which Cagalli stated so early on in the series about gaining too much power creates conflict, and so she violates her ideal that she wants to bring peace and protect freedom, because she lent them tools in which only created more tension and conflict in the battlefield, and her supposed claim of fighting for peace is just total bull.

Lacus never actually has to say that she is right, because she is already right, and if Fukuda says Lacus is right, then she is right, ditto with all her rabid fanatical supporters, and to the rest of the dumb populace of the CE universe. And besides, her demigods are so intoxicated with her Lacus dust that is why they strike down whoever is in her way of achieving total universal domination. Think about it.

Oh, and about Durandall...Kira just said "let's not jump headfirst into his alliance, remember that they sent coordinators to kill Lacus" though later, even Kira was doubting his own thoughts, thinking "what if Durandall really is a swell guy and it was just some assholes that wanted to kill Lacus?"

NO. He actually told Athrun when they met on that beach that "after those Coordinators were sent to kill Lacus, I don't trust that Dullindal guy anymore". He only questioned about trying to do the right thing when he and Murrue had a talk in the hallways of the Archangel. And it was nothing about saying Dullindal was an actual nice guy. He was more concerned about them bringing chaos into the battlefield, nothing more and nothing less. And Lacus' belief of Dullindal's evil after making that wild claim AFTER READING A LITTLE NOTEBOOK was the last nail that drove straight home and strengthened Kira's resolve of Dullindal as a genuinely evil guy. That, and reading Meer's diary (which, is also pretty , considering Meer only talked about Dullindal in a really nice way, and she wasn't saying anything bad about him).

A story with all characters being Mary Sues? I had to rewrite it the first go-around due to one of my female leads (my leads are two females) being essentially flawless. Not that I mind someone like Lacus as a main character. She's much better to me than Relena "come kill me Heero" and "the inept princess that surrenders ten minutes before her brother arrives in the wing zero" Peacecraft ever was.

Relena >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lacus. Remember that. Lacus is way below Relena in terms of political mettle, strength of character, and consistency in her beliefs about peace and war, and the strength and resolve to try to carry on with it through it all. She knew what her limitations were, she knew what she was actually putting herself into, and she actually knew that the G Boys were people who didn't need no shit from anybody just to get their own job done. And besides, she actually tried to do something about it too, unlike Lacus who retired to La La Land after the Jachin Due war. At least when you do try to make comparisons with your Goddess, Demongod, I suggest make it actually real?

Spoiler:

fftopic: That story with Mary Sues as leads sure is interesting, though. It'd probably come out as something utterly hilarious because all the Mary Sues are trying to outdo each other with their own Mary Sue-ness. Maybe I'll try creating a story like that sometime... Any volunteers as lucky candidates for this crazy project? I mean, it's like Super Robot Wars on steroids, if it ever comes into fruition, that is... PM me if you do so wish...

Shinn acting doubtful? Great...then he believes complete and utter nonsense. "Athrun and Meyrin escaped to try and defect to LOGOS and blow Operation Ragnarok by giving them Destiny and Legend's specifications and the strategy of Operation Ragnarok!"

Shinn was like "No WAY!" "Athrun?! Meyrin?!" "WHY?!?!?!". He wasn't like, "Oh, OK, all I have to do is kill them off, right?" after he flew off from Carpentaria Base on his spanking new Destiny Gundam. That was just a very retarded thing Dully did, and so adds to my disbelief that Dully's descent to the Dark Side is so badly done. He was questioning Rey, Rey wasn't saying anything, Athrun was trying to talk to Shinn, but Dully and Rey's poisoning already took full effect, and so Shinn decides to stab the blue Gouf or Zaku right through the middle to end Athrun's mindless blabbering.

Remember that Athrun was acting so suspicious lately, Shinn was so let down by his performance against the invincible Freedom (which is invincible no more) and he so respected Athrun that is why he was so let down, and Athrun decides to make a run for it without even giving any explanation whatsoever to his other comrades aboard the Minerva (most especially Shinn since I actually felt that Athrun was very worried about him because he knew Shinn was just a misguided soul) which is actual treachery to ZAFT, because Athrun re-enlisted into ZAFT to begin with.

And then when Shinn finally DOES see Athrun above Orb, in THE JUSTICE, NO LESS, he's STILL saying that Athrun betrayed them even though if he had any knowledge of the previous war, he'd know that Athrun was one of the key players in bringing the war to an END. Yep, he's sure thinking there. He was ready to run Lunamaria through with Destiny's palm cannon. Yep, real thinking going on there. The first time Shinn REALLY thought about things while seeing the ENTIRE picture is after Athrun finally figuratively smacked him in the head with the biggest stop sign he can find. By junking Shinn's Destiny Gundam. It was then and only then, when Shinn came off of his power trip of having a powerful gundam at his fingertips was he finally able to just cool off, look at the big picture, both from being that little kid on the ground, to being the nightmare of the most powerful men in existence, to once again, being that one guy on the ground, looking at the world objectively again.

In fact, it's ironic, because when Shinn finally actually took the time to think without Darth Gichou controlling his mind, he was able to prove Athrun right when Athrun said that Shinn was worth believing in, and that the guy was fighting for the same dream as the rest of the Clyne Faction. Sure, perhaps the ending WAS a bit of a putdown to Shinn's character throughout the series that he simply takes Kira's hand and says "yes sir, yes sir, three bags full, sir", (I would have written it as Shinn taking Kira's hand, but just saying that while they may be fighting for the same thing, there is still some issues that he still has not settled). but on the plus side, Shinn finally gets to see EVERYTHING. Not just "Freedom is bad, kill it! Justice is bad, kill it!" "Durandall is right! Big Brother Gichou is the only way!" that Rey O'Brien was just filling his head with.

Do not underestimate the powers of the Sith, my friend. Nothing Obi Wan Zala could do about that in those crazy moments. Once a person totally poisons another person's mind towards you, it would take more than just a handshake just to clear your head up like you've just taken a whiff of fresh air straight from the country or wherever there's fresh air. So Kira and Shinn's moment in the Final Plus is utterly revolting.

Shinn's belief that Athrun betrayed them is explained in the reply above this one.

And as for Diana >>> Lacus thing, Diana was popular for the same reasons Lacus is: her beauty and charisma. In fact, somehow, I think it was Destiny that Diana had to go X_X. Because she indeed WAS a living Mary Sue.

Diana never WAS a Mary Sue, she had her own faults, and because of course she was part of the Royal Family these faults/problems had to be kept hidden from the public eye, because she's part of that family, and I guess this is where you get your idea that Diana was an actual Mary Sue. The people all loved her because she was Diana, and not because she was the Princess of Wales. She wasn't just loved for her beauty and charisma, in fact, she was more loved for her intelligence, the inner strength she possesses, and the warmth that she seems to exude from her being, bringing a sense of humanity to the Royal Family of Britain which the common people knew were just a bunch of people who are leagues away from themselves and would have nothing to do with the commoners.

Lacus, sadly, doesn't have any of that sort, because you so admitted yourself that she only had her father's name as her passport to being well loved by the people. But she has Lacus dust, which is far more potent than any expert PR man out there on the face if the entire universe, because it intsantly makes the people who ingest it think that Lacus is actually God's gift to humanity and that all the things she does is unbelievably but perfectly right all the time.

And no, Gil wasn't really evil (I was waiting to reserve that judgment until ep 36) until Fukuda just trashed his character along with the rest of the new cast.

Is it just me or are you actually contradicting yourself about the things you try to point out all the time?


And to get back on topic....


I always thought the Destiny Gundam looked like Deathscythe Hell/Custom...

[Headspace]

Originally Posted by Psylocke

IMHO, GSD failed as a Gundam series because it is basically 12 phase of actual story telling and 30 over phases of fan service.
If Fukuda actually had the guts to kill off a member of the old cast from GS, it might stir things up a little and things might actually have gotten more interesting.
But rather, the new cast was tossed aside as named grunts and somebody who seemingly died in GS was brought back from the dead. Yuck!
But I still think the 1st 12 phases of GSD was good. If things had gone down another direction from there, it might have turned out to be a better series than GS.

Exactly the first few phases were very good and actually quite addictive. But from there the story just seemed to plop worse and worse and worse

[Demongod86]

@ Eidolon: Diana was part of the royal family, as was Lacus. Lacus was loved for her voice and ideals, Diana for her intelligence. That and Lacus had her father's name. I mean honestly, who the hell likes Britney Spears? She has more in common with an old computer than anything else (cheap, white, and plastic!). It was Lacus with her father's name (her father was the gichou) that got people listening to her, and she capitalized. And I really don't think the gundams were unnecessary tools. They were quite necessary or Orb would have gone X_________________________________________________ ____________X.

Also, I'm not talking about before shooting Athrun down, I'm talking about after Shinn Shinn-stabbed the gouf and went back to Darth Gichou that Durandall said "you did the right thing, they were traitors, going to reveal operation ragnarok" and Shinn just stands there and basically says "Oh."

Which is why I'm wondering why Shinn didn't just call BULL on Durandall when he saw Athrun in the Justice. I was in a way EXTREMELY surprised that he didn't say "WTF? You went back to Orb?! You have the Justice now? You're not part of LOGOS?" to which Athrun woulda said "no."

And about Athrun getting whacked by Freedom, well, that's why ep 34 killed Shinn's character, didn't it? Wasn't until Athrun had to pwn Shinn himself that Shinn finally got his respect back. HOPEFULLY.

About Lacus not finishing what she started: she entrusted Eileen Canaver to do that, who later entrusted Darth Gichou to continue the peace. Darth Gichou screwed it all up in his idealistic vision of a humanity without desire.

Relena was not stronger than Lacus by any sense of the imagination. Even if she was stupid enough to stick around and meddle with politics in the face of people with far more power than she, Relena always got tossed around, be it by Romefellers, or Treize, or Mariameia or whoever the hell...Heero also nearly died trying to save her ass (oh wait, I forgot, Heero's the most invincible gundam pilot to ever have been created), but either way, he lost his Wing Zero for her. The least Relena could do is have that thing rebuilt as a symbol, but noooooo.

The thing with Relena is that Relena might try to stick around personally, but never has any kill-switch ready to pull if anything ever gets screwed up. Lacus has those gundams built SPECIFICALLY to maintain control without ever having to meddle in politics herself (up until now when she DID what you were talking about and goes to be a foreign representative between Orb and PLANT...I guess now she's a people's elected empress...)

The difference between Lacus and Relena is that Lacus speaks softly and carries a big stick. Relena speaks loudly and always winds up in trouble for being a loudmouth. Then Heero has to come in with his stick to end all sticks and do a lot of beating (even if he breaks his stick in the process )

A story of complete Mary Sues would undoubtedly be a satire. I had to change my mains around and give them, or focus more on their flaws just to make sure it gets through to readers.

Also, for the record, Lacus does not dispense Lacus Dust. It's FREEDOM and STRIKE FREEDOM that dispense Lacus Dust whenever Lacus is around. And ONLY when Lacus is around.

[Eclipze]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Saying Squall of FF8 suck is one thing. Saying FF8 suck because of Squall is another.

Actually, my personal reason FF8 suck is the battle system. Oh my god...drawing magic from monsters? are FF characters so pathetic that they dont have inate magic spells?

And using magic as "equipments" seemed interesting, but it gets stupid seeing how the powerful magic shouldnt be used since they are already equiped as stats boosters, which using them in battle would weaken your stats. That is plain stupidity.

Also, when you are fighting an important boss, and you realise it has new/important magic that you need to draw, you spend 30 minutes trying to get 3 sets of that magic, and only 10minutes of actual fighting. Where the heck is the strategy?

Heh, I didnt even go past disc 1 before I stopped playing. I had more fun playing FF2 than FF8. PERIOD.

[wingdarkness]

Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper

Shinn actually wanted to hear something from Athrun because he actually respected Athrun. Shinn was the one who brought Athrun back to his old self again (well, the start of it anyway) when he talked to Athrun after the Savioring incident. And if you say a couple of sentences is long enough for Shinn to actually understand what Athrun was trying to say in the last 49 episodes...yeah right. Remember the long silence, one liners, and Dully and Rey's poisoning. There's not much a couple of sentences could actually do against this. Which is why Kira's mind raping of Rey is also .

Actually your right and wrong...the reason Rey and Dully's so-called poison got to Shinn was because there was nothing else to occupy his mind or balance his thoughts...Do you know why? Because Athrun can't talk...People, especially certain Lacus loving people ....They seem to forget that Shinn gave Athrun countless and I mean countless times to talk to him man-to-man...So many times Shinn looked at Athrun as if to say "Spit it out already...What do you have to tell me?", but Athrun, as the wounded fawn he was made out to be could only say, "Shinn" or walk away with his head down, moping about...

Shinn is someone who can only respect and understand power(It's the basis of his character based on his family's death)...Athrun being handled by FREEDOM while Shinn not only killed Auel, killed like a 100 Windams and gutted like 5 ORB sea-vessels all with the Minerva under ungodly attack (rightly or wrongly) made Shinn lose respect for Universal-ACE Athrun Zala...Instead of being that strong role model that Athrun had seemed in ep 16, he came back to the ship like a wimp in Shinn's eyes...and upon confrontation by Shinn sounded and acted like one...Shinn being the classic alpha-male type put the responsibility of protecting the Minerva on his shoulders because he had lost faith in the fate of this FAITH-member...Athrun's subsequent actions only made it worse as he still behaved like an apologetic wimp and not a leader...So when everybody freaks out at the fact Shinn didn't listen to Athrun, remember Athrun didn't have the backbone to even talk to the kid...but once he's an established traitor who kidnapped Meyrin NOW he wants to preach to Shinn and talk to him like a man ...As if Shinn should listen now...

Athrun has as much fault to bear as Shinn in this relationship...and that goes to the way he was written in GSD as a devolved, wishy-washy character who in the end as usual was totally wrong vs. Kira's ideals eventhough he's the only character that has a shred of realism to him in-terms of his motivations for wanting to fight for ZAFT again...Just another page amoungst countless others in the manual for why GSD fails...

Furthermore during "Final Plus" I would have never gotten into I.J.'s hand...Leave me on the asteroid surface and fly away with the rest of your untarnished GUNDAMs...take your win and let me take my lost like a man...and if Luna wanted to hop into his hands let her silly-a$$ go...That's how I think the real Shinn would have acted (angst and pride to the end)...Not the "Pollyanna Asuka" we witnessed that forsaked his entire character and nearly everyone of his fans...The only people you hear being happy or satisfied with Shinn's sudden 360 to the nth power character change are Kira//pro "old cast" fans...I haven't read the comments of one true Shinn-fan being satisfied with that sickening ending...

[Moon Eclipse]

Originally Posted by wingdarkness

Actually your right and wrong...the reason Rey and Dully's so-called poison got to Shinn was because there was nothing else to occupy his mind or balance his thoughts...Do you know why? Because Athrun can't talk...People, especially certain Lacus loving people ....They seem to forget that Shinn gave Athrun countless and I mean countless times to talk to him man-to-man...So many times Shinn looked at Athrun as if to say "Spit it out already...What do you have to tell me?", but Athrun, as the wounded fawn he was made out to be could only say, "Shinn" or walk away with his head down, moping about...

Shinn is someone who can only respect and understand power(It's the basis of his character based on his family's death)...Athrun being handled by FREEDOM while Shinn not only killed Auel, killed like a 100 Windams and gutted like 5 ORB sea-vessels all with the Minerva under ungodly attack (rightly or wrongly) made Shinn lose respect for Universal-ACE Athrun Zala...Instead of being that strong role model that Athrun had seemed in ep 16, he came back to the ship like a wimp in Shinn's eyes...and upon confrontation by Shinn sounded and acted like one...Shinn being the classic alpha-male type put the responsibility of protecting the Minerva on his shoulders because he had lost faith in the fate of this FAITH-member...Athrun's subsequent actions only made it worse as he still behaved like an apologetic wimp and not a leader...So when everybody freaks out at the fact Shinn didn't listen to Athrun, remember Athrun didn't have the backbone to even talk to the kid...but once he's an established traitor who kidnapped Meyrin NOW he wants to preach to Shinn and talk to him like a man ...As if Shinn should listen now...

Athrun has as much fault to bear as Shinn in this relationship...and that goes to the way he was written in GSD as a devolved, wishy-washy character who in the end as usual was totally wrong vs. Kira's ideals eventhough he's the only character that has a shred of realism to him in-terms of his motivations for wanting to fight for ZAFT again...Just another page amoungst countless others in the manual for why GSD fails...

Furthermore during "Final Plus" I would have never gotten into I.J.'s hand...Leave me on the asteroid surface and fly away with the rest of your untarnished GUNDAMs...take your win and let me take my lost like a man...and if Luna wanted to hop into his hands let her silly-a$$ go...That's how I think the real Shinn would have acted (angst and pride to the end)...Not the "Pollyanna Asuka" we witnessed that forsaked his entire character and nearly everyone of his fans...The only people you hear being happy or satisfied with Shinn's sudden 360 to the nth power character change are Kira//pro "old cast" fans...I haven't read the comments of one true Shinn-fan being satisfied with that sickening ending...

I like you assement of Shinn, though to come to Athrun's "defense" he never really wanted that position to begin with. After all this turmoil, even he himself didn't have it straightened out. He didn't have an answer for Shinn or himself so he couldn't guide Shinn to higher understanding that he himself had not obtained. The only thing that Athrun knew was that Shinn was confused and misled. He couldn't put Shinn on the "right" path. All he knew was that Shinn was on the wrong one. Unfortunately as the reoccuring theme goes. The "white knight and princess" had to set everyone straight cause they had all the answers. Kira fixed Athrun up, who later fixed Shinn up, but by that time Shinn was too far gone and he just opted to kick his... instead

What's wrong with GSD is what's wrong is embodied by the finale plus episode. High expectations (this time we expected it to fix what was wrong with GSD... last time we expected GSD to meet up to GS's standards), poor character development, plot holes, vices that are used to protect and shield the characters that have the strongest fan base (Kira/ Athrun/ Mwu God Mode). The fact that instead of focusing on one or two main characters they switch between everyone and make others take a back seat while trying to redevelop characters that have been developed in the previous series. (Kira, Athrun, Cagalli). General Inconsistencies within the characters, storyline, fight scenes. Crappy gundams that take the old popular models and just add flashy decorations (no new concepts). They leave a vast pool of potential untapped and by the end of it you see the potential but because it never takes shape you're left feeling empty and ripped off by an anime you got to see for free.

That said I must say that the writers were gutsey. They tried something new and daring (however misplanned it was). Were it maybe 100 episodes (or at least longer than it was with their "time contrants")? I think it actually might have turned out

Okay can someone explain to me why it's not stupid that Rey shot Gil in the end quoting "I'm sorry Gil, but he wanted to live"

[Demongod86]

The thing is, WD, I think that Athrun fully understood Shinn only understands and respects power. That's why I think he couldn't say anything to Shinn. What was he going to do? Tell his life story? Have Shinn get him a tissue? Odds are, he needed some time to think, which was why he went out to the deck. Of course Shinn wasn't impressed with Athrun getting shot down. Which is why it was such a shame that Shinn himself didn't get his ass handed to him in episode 34...it would have at least put him in the same boat as Athrun. And yes, Athrun could only talk to Shinn FROM a position of power. Athrun really CANNOT talk to Shinn man to man, since Shinn really doesn't respect that. Heck, even in episode 16, Shinn just seems to forget about all that shit. He talked to Shinn after the Stella incident as well. What came of it? Nothing much. Sure, Athrun's fault is the fact that he got savioured. At the same time, it's Shinn's fault for not listening.

The truth is, WD, that Shinn only really listens when he KNOWS that the guy talking to him is not just his peer, but flat out BETTER than him. Odds are, that's why he got on the Justice's hand. What was he going to do on the surface of the moon with Luna? Wait there until his oxygen ran out? Until he starved or died of the cold? Or gone back to ZAFT looking like a complete loser that got put down by the Justice without a fight?

The thing is, at the very end, after Shinn got shot down, I guess that's when it finally hit him how Athrun felt when Athrun got savioured. In fact, it was basically the SAME EXACT CASE. Just as Athrun did a lot of thinking after getting Savioured, so too did Shinn do some thinking in the timeskip after getting Destinied. (Is that what we can coin the term now?)

Even Kira did some thinking after getting shot down...though clearly, it wasn't too much. Just the fact that Impulse's pilot was a straightforward, competitive guy. Then he got back to Orb, and had to save Lacus, and then got a new Freedom Gundam, so that's that.

Yes, perhaps the writers DID rub it in too much that Shinn sort of came around (he could have taken the hand, but did he have to blubber like a baby? Well...Kira blubbered like a baby at the end of SEED, so...)

@ Moon Eclipse: Rey shot Gil because Kira basically showed Rey the light/mindraped Rey, whichever way you want to see it. Or maybe Kira had Rey under a Jedi Mind Trick the whole time when he was in Darth Gichou's throne room...my only explanation is that Kira is really a Jedi in disguise. A Jedi knight under Lacus Clyne, Jedi Master!

[Moon Eclipse]

Originally Posted by Demongod86

The thing is, WD, I think that Athrun fully understood Shinn only understands and respects power....

In the case of Shinn, so you using the fact that he is inately short sighted and hot headed as a defense to his not listening to reason? And that because Athrun was more open minded, trying to figure things out and got savioured for it infront of Shinn that Shinn was justified in not listening to reason? If Shinn's so pigheaded that he believe "might makes right" then like Athrun there's nothing more I can say...

I would like to point out that Shinn got savioured by Athrun because he tried to kill Lunamaria. Kira savioured Athrun, because Athrun made Cagalli cry. I think the big difference is that Athrun himself wasn't even the aggressor in either scenerio. Both time he defended what he believe in, but Kira once again suaded him to see thing in the "Kira" light. At that time Athrun did agree with him somewhat, he actually took a moment to think about stuff and got saviored. Shinn just kept trying to defend why he was right and started running out of excuses. Lunamaria, got it and tried to get in the way. It was at that point that Shinn went crazy, tried to kill her and Athrun savioured his @$$ for being an idiot. It was not until he completely lost (ie. lost all hope of ever destroying ORB, had that encounter with Stella that he finally began to see the light).

Shinn blubber cause he loses, Kira blubbers because the world bleeds and because he hurts people and/or isn't able to protect them.

As for Rey, so not even you can give me a reasonable explanation? I knew it was totally messed.

[wingdarkness]

Originally Posted by Demongod86

The thing is, at the very end, after Shinn got shot down, I guess that's when it finally hit him how Athrun felt when Athrun got savioured. In fact, it was basically the SAME EXACT CASE.

I changed "SAME EXACT CASE" to lower-case cause i know you didn't mean to enhance that...Remember my friend Shinn didn't just feel like Athrun after he got SAVIORED...Athrun loss a Mobile Suit and maybe the respect of some peers...Shinn loss his best friend, his leader, his comrades, his fight, and essentially his DESTINY...He watched everything that mattered to him destroyed and vaporized right before his eyes...then had to stomach watching FREEDOM and the rest of super-clean GUNDAMs all face him in amazing vivid technicolor...So I'd say tying his loss in with Athrun's loss sounds good but is more or less not applicable here...As for what happened to Shinn, "DESTINed" sounds better...

As for Rey, don't even get me started on that traitorous sheep-minded cur...his mindraping actually makes Shinn's brain-washing look like it was done by a 2$ dollar hypnotist swinging a pocket-watch...

When Dully found out it was Rey that shot him I wish he would have said, "Why you worthless defective clone..." *dies* XD That would have been great...Oh and great job Athrun and Kira...such noble fellows just walk off wearing the WTF?-face as Talia and Rey die...Athrun could have easily shot that gun outta Talia's hand and grabbed her silly-a$$..."Oh I guess we have to go, see you later Rey..." To hell with extending their hand to him when he's 3 inches away from the door..." What compassion Mr. Yamato... Does that WTF?-Face come with a patent??

[Shinji103]

Originally Posted by Kurama no Miko2003

I questioned the reintroduction of Kira, though, if, for nothing else, his position as the "Ultimate Coordinator" (aka "Uber 1337 pilot") would've thrown off the balance of the whole series. Ultimate = best = no way Shinn could outdo him, or at least, Shinn couldn't, initially. But this whole series tanked for me the moment they shifted the focus from Shinn to Kira. I'd gotten used to the idea that, while Shinn was a bit of an arrogant little prick, he was the main character and that he'd evolve into someone worth respecting. (I actually disliked Kira at first because he struck me as an angsty wimp for the first, oh, 20 or so episodes of GS. But he changed, grew a backbone, and became more respectable in my eyes.) Shinn never got that. The writers seemed to have just scrapped his importance in GSD halfway through the series, at which point, he became an afterthought. Apparently, the writer thought it'd be easier to leave him as Durindal's pawn. But even that paled to them bringing back Mwu. That was just . . . no. It made his "death scene" in GS seem really cheap now.

I could go on, but I think this means I oughtta rewatch GSD and come up with a fanfic rewrite of it . . . starting with Shinn staying as the main character.

~ Kurama no Miko2003

That's the most beautiful description of Shinn's nerfing in GSD that I have EVER READ. By far the most beautiful post I have seen in this thread so far. (sorry everyone else, but... )

[wingdarkness]

Damn Shinji that hurts ...