Madoka Magica - Episodes 11 & 12 Discussion/Poll - Final Episodes!

[Akashin]

Originally Posted by brocko

True, but WN was bound to wreck shit up anyway. It was either make your last stand or die in the aftermath.

Sarcasm on the internet be a tricky mistress. =/

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

We can neither confirm nor disprove that Mami or Kyoko are of any help. There is no certainty when what Homura wants is certainty to find a solution.

However, Homura doesn't have much of a choice because more than likely, she has tried everything else. She tried asking Kyoko because she was running out of options, not because she had absolute faith.

We can't confirm with evidence, no, but there's nothing stopping us from evaluating what we know of them and making an educated guess on how it would end. It doesn't say anything definitive, no, but it does give us an idea.

And I'm not doubting her reasons for asking Kyoko; that much is obvious. I am wondering how much logical worth Kyoko would have; the "some help is better than no help" explanation seems the most sound, but in practice it might not hold up so well. I'm not really debating this; just pointing out that, from what we know of Kyoko, her usefulness against Walpurgis is uncertain at best. Mami, while equally uncertain, is conceptually more useful against a fast, airborne foe. Similar to how people said Mami was simply ill-suited to dealing with a Witch like Charlotte (not necessarily incorrect), Kyoko appears ill-suited to dealing with Walpurgis.

[brocko]

Originally Posted by Akashin

Sarcasm on the internet be a tricky mistress. =/

lol, everything else in the thread seemed so heated up and serious so I assumed that was too, my bad lol
But it's only Kyoko anyway, girl could barely keep a straight face while playing DDR whilst munching on pocky lol

[~Yami~]

Originally Posted by Demon Eyes

There is a very reasonable way to make a sequel, or whatever it can be called.

Some people already said it but this anime really shouldve been name Homura not Madoka.

Madoka died way back when. Her death brought upon Homura's awakening (so to speak) which is kind of like Kamina dying so Simon could grow up. In other words, either way you look at it, Madoka was a device to Homura's progress if we looked at this series like all the other ones.

And so I say a sequel or alternate story that follows Homura's route (The true route) would work.

Wouldn't that have been even more awesome than what they went for? Imagine going through all Homura went through with her. Now that would be true despair!

I want ma Homura story!

hmm, I agree that this story become Homura-centered since ep 10....
although I hope that there will be an OVA

but I think this is the best ending and conclusion... If we add more episode than that will ruin everything

Originally Posted by bigdeath

odd people complained about ep 11. I found it explained quite a bit. Episode 12, really.................REALLY?! They went with a crystal dragon Jesus ending. O.o

Overall, best anime this winter season. Its sure been one hell of a ride and while I should have guessed the ending......I didn't.

At least Mami and Kyouko are back alive. Hurray! Now I want a sequel that likely will never come.................

Jesus ending ??? I don't think so

best anime this winter season??? yeah! Of course

Mami and Kyoko are back alive?? Hurray! too... but unfortunately they don't appear in the last scene.... maybe they can't go against their fate (5 timeline and they always died, right?)

@Kaijo
maybe you should start a fanfic.... I'm curious to see what kind of ending you will offer..... (I can't think another better ending so this is pure curiousity)

I'm surprised to see that there are two people that disappointed with the ending..... I wonder why?

[MartianMage]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

What does irrationality mean to you, exactly? Since this is a word you're throwing around a lot, I'd like to know what exactly it means to you.

Hmmm? It doesn't have any special meaning to me. I simply go by the dictionary definition. Here's an example:

Irrationality is cognition, thinking, talking or acting without inclusion of rationality. It is more specifically described as an action or opinion given through inadequate reasoning, emotional distress, or cognitive deficiency. The term is used, usually pejoratively, to describe thinking and actions that are, or appear to be, less useful or more illogical than other more rational alternatives.

I'm not assuming any more than you are when it comes to Kyouko's father. And it's not like every murderer out there is irrational, either.

Oh but nowhere in Kyouko's narrative did she ever mention her father snapped. So no I'm not making any extra assumptions here.

No, it's not. It's obviously a lot easier to avoid hurting people you care about when the only person you care about is yourself.

We're not talking about the difficulty of the choices they have to make here, are we?

So do you think it's stupid for people to try to work cooperatively and to care about one another? Do you think it's irrational for we human beings to care and look out for one another?

If so, then what's wrong with Sayaka raging at Madoka?

Heck, if it's stupid and irrational to care about other people, then Sayaka was being smart and rational to break away from Madoka...

I'm pretty much on Sayaka's side during her first encounter with Kyouko. So yeah...

What's irrational about trying to save somebody you care about? What's irrational about wanting out of what by all accounts looks like a no-win scenario?

The irrational part on Kyouko is where she kamikazes on Sayaka. She has been living for quite a time using her harvesting tactics, no?

So, just to be clear, are you saying that Sayaka is of average or above intelligence?

I think she's of average intelligence. I don't think she ever comes off as a person with above average intelligence though...

Well, let's cut to the chase here. Can you provide some specific examples of this please? Specific examples that we can discuss.

When Homura offered to help her she knew that Homura wasn't doing it for her sake shows that she's a very perceptive person. But still... she should have accepted Homura's offer. She knows very well that she's almost at her limit but she still refused the offer for what reason? She talks about trying to help everyone but how could she if she doesn't even show any concerns for self preservation? Even if we argue that she doesn't know the fact that she will turn into a witch she still knows that without magic power she couldn't save anyone. Of course I'm fully aware that at that time Sayaka already lost the will to uphold her idealism and the will to live. "It is more specifically described as an action or opinion given through inadequate reasoning, emotional distress, or cognitive deficiency."

The same could be said when she raged at Madoka. Sure she was angry and was clearly regretting it later but it doesn't change the fact that she was being irrational.

Well, I think that you're wrong on this topic. I don't think that Sayaka is "more on the stupid side".

Well clearly we disagree at this point.

Generally speaking, going by my personal experience, people don't like to think of characters that they like as being irrational and/or stupid. Those are two pretty strong criticisms to level against a person, or a character, imo.

These aren't some minor realistic flaws. These are the sorts of things that many people, including myself, feel detract from a character considerably.

Hmmm... if we're to look at the shounen genre and it's fanbase I'm pretty sure many of the fans would agree that a lot of the fan favorites are irrational / stupid. I'm pretty much a fan of the shounen genre myself and I like characters like Naruto and I have no issues when I read Naruto is stupid because he is.

And personally I think it is a minor and a realistic flaw. Just last night I was playing DotA and we were losing and a friend of mine kept on blaming my other friends for the loss. Later that day he talked to me about it and he felt really bad because it was not like he was playing his best too anyway. He was being irrational and was stirring up a shit storm over a game but you know even after all that we are all still good friends and would play again later. If I can see it that way in real life then what more for fictional characters?

[Akashin]

I'm not about to jump in the middle of your guys' debate, but I just want to ask one thing:

When did we start judging Kyoko's father as though he were a murderer? He was a priest who had a bunch of people literally flocking to him for no reason, and when he learned that they only came to him because a wish messed with them, he killed his family. Given that he wasn't a murderer (in fact, Kyoko paints him as a wonderful man) prior to this, it isn't any stretch of logic to say he snapped. That it isn't directly said isn't damning, in this case.

[MartianMage]

Originally Posted by Akashin

I'm not about to jump in the middle of your guys' debate, but I just want to ask one thing:

When did we start judging Kyoko's father as though he were a murderer? He was a priest who had a bunch of people literally flocking to him for no reason, and when he learned that they only came to him because a wish messed with them, he killed his family. Given that he wasn't a murderer (in fact, Kyoko paints him as a wonderful man) prior to this, it isn't any stretch of logic to say he snapped. That it isn't directly said isn't damning, in this case.

A murderer has to start from somewhere, right?

[Akashin]

Yes, they do. But that starting point is in a mindset that lends itself to being willing to commit murder; for all I know I might wake up tomorrow entertaining the idea, but I definitely won't wake up tomorrow resolving to kill my family. That his mindset changed so quickly (presumably; I suppose we can't confirm this, though we can't confirm the opposite either) suggests completely snapping.

The point is, by killing his family he became a murderer--fine, this is true. But your argument relies upon him having been a murderer before this, which he most certainly wasn't.

[MartianMage]

Originally Posted by Akashin

Yes, they do. But that starting point is in a mindset that lends itself to being willing to commit murder; for all I know I might wake up tomorrow entertaining the idea, but I definitely won't wake up tomorrow resolving to kill my family. That his mindset changed so quickly (presumably; I suppose we can't confirm this, though we can't confirm the opposite either) suggests completely snapping.

The point is, by killing his family he became a murderer--fine, this is true. But your argument relies upon him having been a murderer before this, which he most certainly wasn't.

ummm... no my argument certainly doesn't rely on him being a murderer before. You ever watch the news? Sure this is not a common occurrence but it does happen.

I wouldn't know their mindsets at that time but it does happen in real life.

[Dr. Casey]

I was under the impression that Kyouko's father was a bit off to begin with. He was described as the sort that cries from reading sad stories in the newspaper, something that most people don't do (I've never known anyone to be that sensitive, to the point where they'd cry over such stories on a regular basis). I figure that he was kind of delicate and unstable long before Kyouko made any puella magi deals with Kyubey.

[Akashin]

Originally Posted by Kuroi Sabato

ummm... no my argument certainly doesn't rely on him being a murderer before. You ever watch the news? Sure this is not a common occurrence but it does happen.

I wouldn't know their mindsets at that time but it does happen in real life.

Poor choice of words on my part. What I meant to say was that this relies upon him having been in a state of mind where murder is a viable option prior to learning the truth; otherwise, saying that the truth caused him to snap is the far more likely explanation.

Originally Posted by Dr. Casey

I was under the impression that Kyouko's father was a bit off to begin with. He was described as the sort that cries from reading sad stories in the newspaper, something that most people don't do (I've never known anyone to be that sensitive, to the point where they'd cry over such stories on a regular basis). I figure that he was kind of delicate and unstable long before Kyouko made any puella magi deals with Kyubey.

This is a fair argument, and that he devoutly preached "new ideas" (I can't remember Kyoko's exact wording for what her father preached) might support this. I don't necessarily see it that way, and instead interpreted his sensitivity as a kind trait. While I've never cried over the news, I can understand somebody perhaps being sensitive enough to do so. Do I know anybody who does, though? No.

So while I don't fully agree, this sounds possible.

[MartianMage]

Originally Posted by Akashin

Poor choice of words on my part. What I meant to say was that this relies upon him having been in a state of mind where murder is a viable option prior to learning the truth; otherwise, saying that the truth caused him to snap is the far more likely explanation.

You suggesting that he wasn't would also be an extra assumption. There's no need to make extra assumptions for details if what we're presented is believable, no?

Kyouko presented a clear and believable story. Why are we adding these extra assumptions to make arguments work?

[FlavorOfLife]

Madoka's wish has a wisdom to it. All perfect solutions are never perfect. All permanent solutions are never permanent. She kept those 2 in mind

[Akashin]

Originally Posted by Kuroi Sabato

You suggesting that he wasn't would also be an extra assumption. There's no need to make extra assumptions for details if what we're presented is believable, no?

Kyouko presented a clear and believable story. Why are we adding these extra assumptions to make arguments work?

I... wait... what?

How, exactly, is saying Kyoko's dad didn't belong in the loony bin any more an assumption than saying he does? Kyoko says nothing that directly supports either; all she says is that she made a wish, her wish went wonky, and her dad killed her family. Unless I'm missing integral details of this story, none of that paints him either as a perfect saint (minus Kyoko's probably biased way of telling it painting him in a good light) or a potential murderer.

To follow your logic of her presenting a clear and believable story, though, her comment on her dad disliking her wish is immediately followed by her telling of him killing her family. In a clear and believable story, it's safe to call these two things related.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by hyperborealis

*questions about Walpurgis Night Witch*

I have asked that question to panzerfan, if Walpurgis Night Witch is either a Witch former Magical Girl so powerful that she is only outclassed by Madoka or the sum of ALL Witches. After some checking of german lore, it IS the latter. She is the Captain Planet of Witches, the sum of the overall despair of every fallen magical girls.

[ninryu]

You know, I'm glad people are interested and talking and staff, but calm down. Show's over, let's have some light-hearted fun. ^_^;

[MartianMage]

Originally Posted by Akashin

I... wait... what?

How, exactly, is saying Kyoko's dad didn't belong in the loony bin any more an assumption than saying he does? Kyoko says nothing that directly supports either; all she says is that she made a wish, her wish went wonky, and her dad killed her family. Unless I'm missing integral details of this story, none of that paints him either as a perfect saint (minus Kyoko's probably biased way of telling it painting him in a good light) or a potential murderer.

To follow your logic of her presenting a clear and believable story, though, her comment on her dad disliking her wish is immediately followed by her telling of him killing her family. In a clear and believable story, it's safe to call these two things related.

sigh... I'll repeat it again... nowhere in Kyouko's narrative was it stated that he snapped. As I've presented before a sane person could have easily done the same crime. Sure we don't know how exactly her father did it so you can't prove your case and I also can't prove mine but here's the catch. I'm taking the side of the story where no extra assumption is injected. Why should I bother trying to insert extra details to weave another possible outcome when Kyouko's original narrative works?

You know what? This is getting tiresome. I'm just dropping this argument. It doesn't belong in this thread anyway. =/

[erneiz_hyde]

Originally Posted by Kuroi Sabato

Hmmm? It doesn't have any special meaning to me. I simply go by the dictionary definition. Here's an example:

Irrationality is cognition, thinking, talking or acting without inclusion of rationality. It is more specifically described as an action or opinion given through inadequate reasoning, emotional distress, or cognitive deficiency. The term is used, usually pejoratively, to describe thinking and actions that are, or appear to be, less useful or more illogical than other more rational alternatives.

So the reason Einstein refused Quantum Physics was because he was irrational...?

Drop this already. Everyone is bound to get stupid when they are emotional.

[mistyken]

got a question...
i understand that with madoka's wish for eliminating any pass, current and future witch, the rule of the game has changed and witch can no longer exist.
as a result in the altered timeline, sayaka simply disappeared after she burnt the last of her power.
mami was "resurrected" due to the fact that she was killed by a witch b4 and since no witch can exist, she would be still alive.
same applies to kyoko; sayaka couldn't turn into a witch so she won't have to destroy her by self-destructing.

but what about homura? if no witch can exist, then madoka wouldn't be killed by the the witch from the witch night right? if that's the case, where's motive for her to become a MG in the first place? shouldn't homura remain an ordinary human being in the altered world?

[MartianMage]

Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde

So the reason Einstein refused Quantum Physics was because he was irrational...?

Drop this already. Everyone is bound to get stupid when they are emotional.

You know what? This is getting tiresome. I'm just dropping this argument. It doesn't belong in this thread anyway. =/

This is why debates like these get really long and silly.

got a question...
i understand that with madoka's wish for eliminating any pass, current and future witch, the rule of the game has changed and witch can no longer exist.
as a result in the altered timeline, sayaka simply disappeared after she burnt the last of her power.
mami was "resurrected" due to the fact that she was killed by a witch b4 and since no witch can exist, she would be still alive.
same applies to kyoko; sayaka couldn't turn into a witch so she won't have to destroy her by self-destructing.

but what about homura? if no witch can exist, then madoka wouldn't be killed by the the witch from the witch night right? if that's the case, where's motive for her to become a MG in the first place? shouldn't homura remain an ordinary human being in the altered world?

Unexplained(unless I missed something). Probably her wish got rewritten. It's an unimportant detail that doesn't need explaining anyway.

Her motive? Probably to protect Madoka's new world. At least that's what she's saying in the end during that badass last scene.

[erneiz_hyde]

Originally Posted by mistyken

got a question...
i understand that with madoka's wish for eliminating any pass, current and future witch, the rule of the game has changed and witch can no longer exist.
as a result in the altered timeline, sayaka simply disappeared after she burnt the last of her power.
mami was "resurrected" due to the fact that she was killed by a witch b4 and since no witch can exist, she would be still alive.
same applies to kyoko; sayaka couldn't turn into a witch so she won't have to destroy her by self-destructing.

but what about homura? if no witch can exist, then madoka wouldn't be killed by the the witch from the witch night right? if that's the case, where's motive for her to become a MG in the first place? shouldn't homura remain an ordinary human being in the altered world?

Assuming the Homura we see is a different Homura from Before Madoka(BM) is that Homura was attacked by Majuu and Mami-san helped her. Homura, seeing aspiration in her, eventually become MG.

If not, then that Homura is the same Homura we see from Before Madoka (which has already contracted).

Btw, following this...Is it possible that the After Madoka(AM) Homura and the epilogue Homura was actually different person? The epilogue Homura is the original one who, after Madoka became Jesus, continued to fight on until eventually she succumbs to witch-hood (which prompts Madoka's interverence). After she died in that timeline, then we see the AM Homura and the rest doing that conversation when Sayaka disappeared.

Just sayin'

Ninja:

This is why debates like these get really long and silly.

Huh, my bad then. It's just that your final post is on the next page when I see the ridiculous debate going on and I couldn't help myself.