AnimeSuki Forums

felix · 2011-10-17, 05:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

Because starting from a low point gives more room for development.

I find it really boring development. Also "starting from a low point" and being "psychologically tormented" aren't mutually dependent, so I don't know why so many shows have to pull on it. I understand the way japanese culture works there's a lot of focus on the inner self rather then the outside world but still there's just so many subtle way of simply having the character start of as relatively normal (ie. not in need of damn group counseling)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

It's one way to prevent overpowered characters from being Mary Sues and Gary Stus, however awesome it is to see them in action.

The reverse of the Mary Sue isn't all that great either; if anything it's worse. Also, I personally don't really see this connection, as far as I'm concerned plot turns a character into a Mary Sue (hence why fanfiction is most famous for them) not the actual character design itself. But whatever...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

It worked with Evangelion, and it worked with Madoka Magica. When the core of characters are portrayed as fragile, you come to understand that characters like Shinji and Homura worked their asses off to get to where they are now and sympathize with them.

Wait what? You serious?

Homura is the complete opposite for god sake!!

She's a really strong overpowered character for which we get a weak point. I don't care for the chronological order is, it's the story order that really matters; what we got was strong => weak not the other way around. Besides all her weakness is plot driven. We didn't get any focus on some inner emo-tweet list, it's all about her and her Magical Girl issues. I'm not against characters having slumps. There's nothing wrong with having issues, or inner monolog. But when those slumps are just self imposed torture which they start with, it's just lame.

As for Shinji, that's a whole different can of worms. Fear not I didn't like that character too much either, if at all; though the recent incarnations do make it a lot better. In Shinji's case though he doesn't become "tougher" at all. Even in his first battle, yeah he's in a giagantic mech, but other then that he's still scared shitless and it just happens that any sort of fighting back works a little bit. As I recall it was more of a mutual defeat though; they barely pull togheter thoughout the series too. And the whole idea with the mechs (as cool as they are) is to force all the tention on the kids, from a plot perspective. It could have been some kind of kid boxing match or something, the way Eva did it was just more classy. Note that at no point does he get the Ichigo style of troll-brave.

Overall with Eva it's more about the struggle then the power and the same for Madoka. In this one, like with Bleach and others, it seems to be just all about the power. More specifically DBZ style plot-power.

blue_sora · 2011-10-17, 06:29

My thoughts on ep 1:

1. Looks like my new resistance focused anime after Code Geass. What seems the same are there seems developed and underdeveloped area, stealing of secret government weapon, the terrorist aspect and the killing of a whole area. Other than that it seems different enough.

2. Shu Ouma confused me. At the beginning I thought he was a loner, cool guy then suddenly he becomes a coward and timid boy. It also makes me have mixed feelings towards Yuki Kaji; I felt he was great at first and this is a break from his ordinary roles but at the end he used that No. 6 Shion voice again. I blamed Shu's wimpiness on him because Yuki Kaji just voiced wimpy characters too well.

3. Why the resistance group send a useless girl to steal that vial? If Gai so amazing he should steal that thing himself. Of course Inori has that advantage of the invisible cloak but why design the meeting place so far? I just don't get it.

4. I never appreciate any songstress characters before so I am indifferent towards Inori.

5. The idea of pulling powers from a girl's body is common but for the life of me I can't remember any story that I watched about it, only a certain Korean manhwa. So I'm interested to see how this story will play out.

6. Inori's song is lovely, but the BGM feels out of place and unfitted at certain scenes. Especially the BGM when Shu pulls out the sword; I went 'huh?' at that.

Triple_R · 2011-10-17, 08:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyfall

I merely took beef with the suggestion that the situation was less dangerous and more prone to success the second time around.

From Shu's perspective, it might have been less dangerous and more prone to success. He might be believing in that "Hollywood myth" that you referred to, and hence thinking that he had a better chance of saving her in the 2nd case than he did in the 1st case.

And if that is what he thought, then that helps to explain why he approached the 2nd case a lot differently than he did in the 1st case.

I'm not going to say that Shu was smart. I can definitely see where his actions can be viewed as reckless, or even crazy. But I don't think his Episode 1 characterization is necessarily inconsistent. He may have viewed the likelihood of success in the two cases as different, even if in actuality they weren't.

felix · 2011-10-17, 08:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Triple_R

From Shu's perspective, it might have been less dangerous and more prone to success. He might be believing in that "Hollywood myth" that you referred to, and hence thinking that he had a better chance of saving her in the 2nd case than he did in the 1st case.

And if that is what he thought, then that helps to explain why he approached the 2nd case a lot differently than he did in the 1st case.

Did he really care much about her though?

It seems to me from the first scene his main quest is this inner inferiority-complex and the girl is merely a side-quest that gains him some points to feed his inferiority complex. It could have been a stray dog for all it's worth, judging by his "determination" there. It's like he's tacking revenge against the blow earlier to his ego; and it's pretty damn explicitly portrayed as such from my POV—I guess others would see it as OMG-heroic or "selfless" act, but I don't. Still, he obviously likes the girl, but aside from sex appeal I don't know if there's really anything else there. He doesn't even seem to have a clue what the resistance is doing much less sympathize with them. We probably understand better then he does at this point. The fact he acted after Gai's words just raises more flags of him being a prideful selfish emo-kid that only cares about his ego and inferiority complex.

Triple_R · 2011-10-17, 08:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by felix

Did he really care much about her though?

It seems to me from the first scene his main quest is this inner inferiority-complex and the girl is merely a side-quest that gains him some points to feed his inferiority complex. It could have been a stray dog for all it's worth, judging by his "determination" there. It's like he's tacking revenge against the blow earlier to his ego; and it's pretty damn explicitly portrayed as such from my POV—I guess others would see it as OMG-heroic or "selfless" act, but I don't. Still, he obviously likes the girl, but aside from sex appeal I don't know if there's really anything else there. He doesn't even seem to have a clue what the resistance is doing much less sympathize with them. We probably understand better then he does at this point. The fact he acted after Gai's words just raises more flags of him being a prideful selfish emo-kid that only cares about his ego and inferiority complex.

I don't doubt that 'wounded pride' may have played a role in his decision in the 2nd case, yes.

But even if it did, I think that you're framing it in an overly negatively light.

A guy trying to 'prove his worth', and succeeding at it, can be inspirational. There's nothing inherently wrong with a person wanting to have good self-esteem (in fact, many psychologists would say that it's healthy to want that).

I think of Simon in Gurren Lagann here, who responded to Kamina's challenges to him by becoming more courageous and strong.

serpiente · 2011-10-17, 09:07

Maybe Shu is affraid of people, but not mecha

?

His design is also not appealing and generic like any low budget emo male lead. Mecha leads always had some unique traits to them (with the exception of Shinji)

Quote:

Originally Posted by blue_sora

3. Why the resistance group send a useless girl to steal that vial? If Gai so amazing he should steal that thing himself. Of course Inori has that advantage of the invisible cloak but why design the meeting place so far? I just don't get it.

I was asking myself the same. Why send her?

And why do they have a tsundere lolita as their nerd/communication guy? I can see her hanging the phone in the middle of an important operation just becuse she s upset.

Aurelia aurita · 2011-10-17, 09:18

I saw it yesterday too. Some pics first:

Spoiler for Synopsis of episode 2 and Q&A:

Iby · 2011-10-17, 10:12

Aurelia aurita, I won't insist but as far as I know it's Fyu-Neru & End Rave/Endrave.
Anyway, thanks for the info ^_^

Kanon · 2011-10-17, 10:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reckoner

The reason I took issue with Shu is two fold (Stating it again).

1. His motivations for his actions are quite lacking or even nonexistent. He complains about social awkwardness at the start, but the plot moves so fast we hardly have time to experience what he even meant or why he is socially awkward in the first place. He complains about being a coward since he didn't decide to become Rambo when the soldiers took away Inori. Frankly he's a bit out of his mind if he tries anything without having any sort of power or weapons. He precedes to listen to Inori to take the object to Gai for no good reason other than perhaps having the hots for her. He then charges in like Rambo into a situation he probably should have died in if it weren't for plot features to save Inori, again simply because he has the hots for her?

Makes you wonder what he would have done if Inori had been butt-ugly...

His motivations certainly seem to be shallow. We can't even argue he was compelled to help Inori because of his traumatic past since he doesn't even seem to remember it. He either helped her to feel better about himself or because Inori is mighty hot. Not exactly what I'd call heroic motivations although I can get behind the latter, fufu.

For my part, his self-loathing inner speeches are the main reason I dislike him at the moment (him being voiced by Kaji doesn't help either), he kept complaining throughout most of the episode. Except for him going Rambo at the end, I had no issues with his actions. It was natural, no, smart of him not to stand up to several armed soldiers. What could he have done, other than getting himself killed? That's certainly not something to be proud of but it's not a cowardly action either.

hoarfrost · 2011-10-17, 10:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kanon

Makes you wonder what he would have done if Inori had been butt-ugly...

This is the standard by which I judge male shounen/seinen protags. If you wouldn't do it for a male or an ugly girl, it isn't really praiseworthy.

A second brain is something all us men are born with. It isn't really impressive!

Shadow5YA · 2011-10-17, 11:37

I looked up some info and it looks like Egoist songs are sung by supercell's guest singer Chelly... so Ai Kayano really isn't voicing Inori when she's singing?

LoweGear · 2011-10-17, 11:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

I looked up some info and it looks like Egoist songs are sung by supercell's guest singer Chelly... so Ai Kayano really isn't voicing Inori when she's singing?

Many anime have dual voices for a single character, one to provide the actual speaking voice, and one for singing. A recent example off the top of my head is Sheryl Nome from Macross Frontier, who was voiced by Aya Endo, yet whose songs are sung by May'n. Another example I know is Athena Glory, voiced by Tomoko Kawakami with singing voice provided by Eri Kawai (may they both rest in peace ;_; ).

tsunade666 · 2011-10-17, 11:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aurelia aurita

I saw it yesterday too. Some pics first:

Spoiler for Synopsis of episode 2 and Q&A:

The way the void genome works really is like the same as persona. The closer you are with the owner of the weapon the stronger the weapon will get. It's like social links powering up your persona.

lolz on the armpits. What is she Reimu!?

Xion Valkyrie · 2011-10-17, 11:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I don't doubt that 'wounded pride' may have played a role in his decision in the 2nd case, yes.

But even if it did, I think that you're framing it in an overly negatively light.

A guy trying to 'prove his worth', and succeeding at it, can be inspirational. There's nothing inherently wrong with a person wanting to have good self-esteem (in fact, many psychologists would say that it's healthy to want that).

I think of Simon in Gurren Lagann here, who responded to Kamina's challenges to him by becoming more courageous and strong.

With those series, it takes a good portion of the story before those characters come to become the heroic mains we love them for. For Gurren Lagann, it takes both Kamina's death for Simon to come into his own. For Madoka, it takes pretty much the ENTIRE series for Madoka to make her decision.

Would any of those series be nearly as good if the main characters had their big character growth in the first episode?

Triple_R · 2011-10-17, 12:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xion Valkyrie

With those series, it takes a good portion of the story before those characters come to become the heroic mains we love them for. For Gurren Lagann, it takes both Kamina's death for Simon to come into his own. For Madoka, it takes pretty much the ENTIRE series for Madoka to make her decision.

Would any of those series be nearly as good if the main characters had their big character growth in the first episode?

I don't think that Shu has had his big character growth yet.

In Shu's case, I think that becoming "strong" will include becoming smarter about the choices he makes (much like Simon in Gurren Lagann, and to some extent, Madoka as well). I think that we all agree that the level of risk-taking he engaged in during Episode 1 probably isn't what he should be doing regularly.

Simon, like Shu, showed guts very early on in his anime. But real growth for him had to do with overcoming adversity, time and time again. That's what I hope to see for Shu.

In Madoka's case, one of the main aspects of Madoka's decision wasn't just the courage that went into it, but also how smart (at least on some levels) her decision was. I hope that, similarly, we'll see Shu grow smarter over time.

Aurelia aurita · 2011-10-17, 12:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iby

Aurelia aurita, I won't insist but as far as I know it's Fyu-Neru & End Rave/Endrave.
Anyway, thanks for the info ^_^

It's definitely "Funell" in Funimation's subs. I don't trust my memory 100%, but I'm pretty sure it was spelled "Endlave" too.

Kaioshin Sama · 2011-10-17, 12:58

I wonder if I should be mentioning this cause it may break some hearts, but Red Juice doesn't do the anime designs, he did the original designs which you can seee in some of the promo art and what not. The designs used in the show are by Hiromi Kato. Just want that out there for the record.

By the way are all the vocal songs from this Supercell band? None of them sound like anything I've heard from Sawano to date.

Lastly reading that Q&A thing I think trying to be the next GiTS is an ambitious goal, but I don't think they're going to get that sort of maturity and realistic sci-fi bent out of this staff. Frankly the first episode isn't even close to capturing that sort of feel unless having a Tachikoma and birds in your show is what they think they need. What you almost need is Mamoru Ooshi to even have a prayer of pulling of that sort of goal but we'll see.

Triple_R · 2011-10-17, 13:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

Lastly reading that Q&A thing I think trying to be the next GiTS is an ambitious goal, but I don't think they're going to get that sort of maturity and realistic sci-fi bent out of this staff.

One thing I'll admit is that, no, this isn't the next GiTS. It's not quite gritty and realistic enough for that.

That being said, they probably threw that out there to try to cut down on the inevitable and numerous Code Geass comparisons.

Kaoru Chujo · 2011-10-17, 13:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kanon

...His motivations certainly seem to be shallow....

Patriotism and guilt? Those don't seem shallow to me. It's true, as Reckoner says, that we don't get a very full experience of his motivations, but those are the ones we are given. And we are still trying to interpret his visions.

Would he have tried to save her if she wasn't so gorgeous? Not sure. He might not even have done it if she wasn't already someone whose songs he loved. But he might have, since his guilt and doubt over his and his country's situation were gnawing away at him. That, at least, was made abundantly clear to us.

Someone said he wanted a hero who was gar. I don't, necessarily, so maybe that's the difference: preferences and expectations, as opposed to the actual quality of the piece. I've been turned off by Kaji Yuuki's weak voice before, but for some reason it doesn't do that to me here. He has reason for his angst. And he deals with it.

When Shu ran to save Inori, he was planning to grab her and run, not fight. So he didn't need weapons and abilities, just determination and speed. The machines were not moving that quickly to get her. He was putting himself in danger, but it wasn't totally stupid, just very dangerous. And the option was leaving her there to die, as he had before, and as he was ashamed to hear Gai say.

Not being a huge fan of GiTS, I don't see the task of emulating it as being impossible. It doesn't have to be the same, it can have a different tone. But it ain't there yet, anyway.

Xander · 2011-10-17, 14:05

I believe the comparison to Ghost in the Shell does make a certain amount of sense, at least in terms of Guilty Crown's setting and technological design. If we are going to talk about those specific aspects instead of the show in general, because any opinions about that are certainly premature, then I don't think they are particularly wrong. This isn't true about storytelling or tone, of course, but there are some similar visual elements.

Even going by the first episode but also taking information from the Q&A into account, it appears that the story will place more of an emphasis on science fiction and genetics in order to explain away any unrealistic powers or abilities, as opposed to introducing a purely fantastical element like the Death Note or the Geass. That's something else entirely. It may not be truly "hard sci-fi" but even "soft sci-fi" is very different from fantasy (or, say, "science-fantasy," which also remains as another possibility, depending on how events in Guilty Crown develop).

At the same time, I will note that the producers aren't completely denying the influence of Code Geass, which is evident but perhaps exaggerated, beyond a few superficial references and common plot devices. Keep in mind that we should also logically expect Production I.G. to stress comparisons to its own works, first and foremost, instead of promoting those of a different company. This is business, after all.

2011-10-17, 09:18	Link #767
Aurelia aurita ??? Join Date: Jan 2007	I saw it yesterday too. Some pics first: Spoiler for Synopsis of episode 2 and Q&A: - More interesting animation and stuff, CG for all the mecha still - OP is supposed to be Inori singing, but not really that interesting - Pilots are connected mentally in their coffin things to the Endlaves but feel pain when robot are hit - Shuu uses the sword to defeat a couple robots and the battle ends. Sword goes back into Inori. Gai directs Shuu to take her back to Funeral Parlor HQ. Gai is disappoint b/c she screwed up big time. The Void Genom was originally meant to be used on him. - Tsugumi relays intel and disconnects Ayase before her Endlave is defeated by GHQ's Daryl (aka "The Kaleidoscope"). - Void Genom can summon weapons called Voids from other people (apparently based on the provider's introns) - In the lull, GHQ captures several citizens taking refuge in a parking lot. Gai concocts a plan to publicly announce their presence and rescue the citizens. - Shuu and Inori sneak over to a place near the GHQ unit's mobile base. While soldiers are distracted by FP's missiles, FP trains a bunch of lasers on GHQ's compound. Gai and the GHQ commander do some public speechifying. - FP calls themselves "Funeral Parlor" because they sing for all of the deceased, not just . - Shuu summons Inori's Void again. - Commander gives them 10s before he blows a can of gas on the parking lot, during which Shuu runs out and punctures Daryl's coffin to summon his kaleidoscope gun. - GHQ tries to launch missiles but Shuu shoots the kaleidoscope gun and the missiles reflect back on them. - Gai asks Shuu to join them, Shuu declines. - Obviously Inori transfers into Shuu's class. - Endcard by Yuupon. Interviews/Q&A w/ producers from FujiTV, Production IG and Aniplex - Inori's main drawing point is her armpits. - Suits are reminiscent of Eva, they asked redjuice to make sexy characters. - Supercell's doing Egoist's music throughout, OST's coming out next year. - Main inspirations were GiTS and the Eden of the East. Has similarities to Code Geass b/c of some of same staff, but GC is trying to be more like GiTS+Eden. Director is trying to make this his personal GiTS. - Been in development for 2 years. - The reason for Daryl's nickname and why they knew what his Void was beforehand will be revealed in episode 3. - It's called "guilty" because it draws upon how you feel guilty for using your friends as weapons. - The weapons get stronger if the drawer has a strong relationship with the provider. - Daryl and Shuu have no relationship, but Shuu could get his Void b/c they made eye contact. Eye contact is the only basic requirement. - Nitroplus is doing a game, so end cards will be by N+ artists. - Will focus on both school life and battles. - Both sides will fight for control of a certain tower (see pic above) throughout series. - Funell is a "he", could be the hero of the story.

2011-10-17, 14:05	Link #780
Xander Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2008	I believe the comparison to Ghost in the Shell does make a certain amount of sense, at least in terms of Guilty Crown's setting and technological design. If we are going to talk about those specific aspects instead of the show in general, because any opinions about that are certainly premature, then I don't think they are particularly wrong. This isn't true about storytelling or tone, of course, but there are some similar visual elements. Even going by the first episode but also taking information from the Q&A into account, it appears that the story will place more of an emphasis on science fiction and genetics in order to explain away any unrealistic powers or abilities, as opposed to introducing a purely fantastical element like the Death Note or the Geass. That's something else entirely. It may not be truly "hard sci-fi" but even "soft sci-fi" is very different from fantasy (or, say, "science-fantasy," which also remains as another possibility, depending on how events in Guilty Crown develop). At the same time, I will note that the producers aren't completely denying the influence of Code Geass, which is evident but perhaps exaggerated, beyond a few superficial references and common plot devices. Keep in mind that we should also logically expect Production I.G. to stress comparisons to its own works, first and foremost, instead of promoting those of a different company. This is business, after all. Last edited by Xander; 2011-10-17 at 14:21.

2011-10-17, 06:29	Link #762
blue_sora Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2011	My thoughts on ep 1: 1. Looks like my new resistance focused anime after Code Geass. What seems the same are there seems developed and underdeveloped area, stealing of secret government weapon, the terrorist aspect and the killing of a whole area. Other than that it seems different enough. 2. Shu Ouma confused me. At the beginning I thought he was a loner, cool guy then suddenly he becomes a coward and timid boy. It also makes me have mixed feelings towards Yuki Kaji; I felt he was great at first and this is a break from his ordinary roles but at the end he used that No. 6 Shion voice again. I blamed Shu's wimpiness on him because Yuki Kaji just voiced wimpy characters too well. 3. Why the resistance group send a useless girl to steal that vial? If Gai so amazing he should steal that thing himself. Of course Inori has that advantage of the invisible cloak but why design the meeting place so far? I just don't get it. 4. I never appreciate any songstress characters before so I am indifferent towards Inori. 5. The idea of pulling powers from a girl's body is common but for the life of me I can't remember any story that I watched about it, only a certain Korean manhwa. So I'm interested to see how this story will play out. 6. Inori's song is lovely, but the BGM feels out of place and unfitted at certain scenes. Especially the BGM when Shu pulls out the sword; I went 'huh?' at that.

2011-10-17, 10:12	Link #768
Iby minority spirit(?) Fansubber Join Date: May 2011 Location: Hyakka Ryoran Age: 33	Aurelia aurita, I won't insist but as far as I know it's Fyu-Neru & End Rave/Endrave. Anyway, thanks for the info ^_^

2011-10-17, 11:37	Link #771
Shadow5YA Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2010	I looked up some info and it looks like Egoist songs are sung by supercell's guest singer Chelly... so Ai Kayano really isn't voicing Inori when she's singing?

2011-10-17, 12:58	Link #777
Kaioshin Sama Banned Join Date: May 2004 Location: Neither Here nor There Age: 39	I wonder if I should be mentioning this cause it may break some hearts, but Red Juice doesn't do the anime designs, he did the original designs which you can seee in some of the promo art and what not. The designs used in the show are by Hiromi Kato. Just want that out there for the record. By the way are all the vocal songs from this Supercell band? None of them sound like anything I've heard from Sawano to date. Lastly reading that Q&A thing I think trying to be the next GiTS is an ambitious goal, but I don't think they're going to get that sort of maturity and realistic sci-fi bent out of this staff. Frankly the first episode isn't even close to capturing that sort of feel unless having a Tachikoma and birds in your show is what they think they need. What you almost need is Mamoru Ooshi to even have a prayer of pulling of that sort of goal but we'll see.