Madoka Magica - Spoilers & Speculation

[cat_monster]

Interesting.
So far, Sayaka doesn't get along with Homura.
However, if the Homura as Madoka's cat(the little black cat) theory is right, in the OP(the last picture), Sayaka holds Homura in her arms with a smile
I wonder if they will become friendly like this.

[Kaijo]

There are two possible reasons why Kuyube wouldn't know about Homura:

1. His memory of it was erased
2. Homura contracted with Kyube in the future, and came back in time somehow

It's interesting to note that Kyube seems pretty confident that Homura did contract with him, leading to a few other possible conclusions:

1. There is only one Kyube making Magical Girls
2. Kyube recognize his magical signature on Homura
3. There's some magical version of an employee roster, and Homura's name is on it

So any theories need to follow these constraints.

[Tenjo_Utena]

Originally Posted by cat_monster

Interesting.
So far, Sayaka doesn't get along with Homura.
However, if the Homura as Madoka's cat(the little black cat) theory is right, in the OP(the last picture), Sayaka holds Homura in her arms with a smile
I wonder if they will become friendly like this.

After watching episode 3, its pretty obvious that the opening is full of red herrings. I personally wouldn't base any of my speculation on anything in it.

[Arkeus]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

There are two possible reasons why Kuyube wouldn't know about Homura:

1. His memory of it was erased
2. Homura contracted with Kyube in the future, and came back in time somehow

3. Homura predates him, as in, she was a magical girl before he became the one to do contracts.

That of course contradicts homura's interesting in madoka being because she knows her. unless it's reincarnation.

It's interesting to note that Kyube seems pretty confident that Homura did contract with him.

No he doesn't, he use cryptic answer that can be taken in many different ways.

[Hmm....]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

It's interesting to note that Kyube seems pretty confident that Homura did contract with him, leading to a few other possible conclusions:

You forgot one possiblity.
4. Kyube actually know about Homura but feign ignorant.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Hmm....

You forgot one possiblity.
4. Kyube actually know about Homura but feign ignorant.

If you believe this, than all bets are off. we are working on the assumption that people are telling the truth (unless clear bias would give them reason to lie). If you assume people aren't telling the truth, then you really can't count on anything anyone has said, which means you really can't speculate at all since everything is fair game.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

If you believe this, than all bets are off. we are working on the assumption that people are telling the truth (unless clear bias would give them reason to lie). If you assume people aren't telling the truth, then you really can't count on anything anyone has said, which means you really can't speculate at all since everything is fair game.

Well, having unreliable characters is not uncommon on fiction. It's the subtext, the hints, what leads the audience to sense when they should trust and when they shouldn't. A good story is not made of facts only; it's a pretty subjective experience, which is actually what makes it more engrossing and griping. That's also why you can never be 100% certain until the very end, and sometimes not even then.

[Slick_rick]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

If you believe this, than all bets are off. we are working on the assumption that people are telling the truth (unless clear bias would give them reason to lie). If you assume people aren't telling the truth, then you really can't count on anything anyone has said, which means you really can't speculate at all since everything is fair game.

Well QB is not one for telling absolute truths so I think it fairly prudent to doubt he told the absolute truth here either. Basically to her was something noncommittal about whether she contracted him or not. It could be possible he knows or figured it out but gave a roundabout answer.

[Hmm....]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

If you believe this, than all bets are off. we are working on the assumption that people are telling the truth (unless clear bias would give them reason to lie). If you assume people aren't telling the truth, then you really can't count on anything anyone has said, which means you really can't speculate at all since everything is fair game.

having read quite a few of your arguments with other poster, I am sure that I won't be able to convince you to share the same view with what should we see as "clear". That is all, in the end, just our opinion. But to me the sign is clear enough that Kyube is trying to dodge this question and give only vague answer like "I don't really know myself" or "It may be so, it may be not"

My assumption is also working based on your "assumption" that Kyube is "confident" that Homura made contract with him (He never give definite answer, is he?), and Kyube have no idea who Homura is (He never reject it outright either). How can Kyube can be confident that Homura is his contractee while, at the same time, have no idea who she is ? Without a help from your #1-3 tools, He must be a liar.

[Kawakanai]

Sorry for the topic change, but I had question about the soul gems.

Anyone notice Soul gems look a lot like Fabergé eggs? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fabergé_egg

First, was it clear what happened to Mami's soul gem after she died? Yes, we see a broken cup and saucer which is Mami's signature, but what of her soul gem?

The Grief Seed that Homura walks away with after the battle is Charlotte's. When a witch is killed, she leaves behind a grief seed. Which may be a tainted/blackened soul.

Since Magical Girls and Witches seem to have some connection with each other, maybe even yin and yang sides of the same thing, shouldn't it stand to reason that defeated Magical Girls leave behind soul gems? If witches leave behind Grief Seeds after death why wouldn't Soul Gems persist after MG death? (Maybe for Kyuube to have as a yummy snack ).

I would assume that in the normal course of a battle if a MG lost to a witch, the witch would consume the left over Soul Gem much like witches seek out human souls. Homura killed the witch Charlotte right after Mami died. So was Mami's Soul Gem devoured in that short span of time by the evil jack-in-the-box with bitey teeth? Certainly Mami's physical body was, but what of her Soul Gem?

Do you think that the soul gem just dissipates along with the wish the girl had made? If you subscribe to the idea a MG-QB contract is a Faustian bargain, is the soul gem/soul dragged to hell? Or if the MG to witch connection holds, is Mami's soul gem becoming a witch's grief seed somewhere?

Souls seem too important a theme in Madoka (and important to Kyuube I suspect) for Soul Gems to just vaporize when a MG is killed.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Slick_rick

Well QB is not one for telling absolute truths so I think it fairly prudent to doubt he told the absolute truth here either. Basically to her was something noncommittal about whether she contracted him or not. It could be possible he knows or figured it out but gave a roundabout answer.

How do you know that? The real answer is: we don't. We do know that he has told the truth with regards to several things so far. He was being truthful about granting wishes and making magical girls. Thus far, we haven't had any evidence he is lying or hiding something. He could, but we don't know that.

Originally Posted by Hmm....

having read quite a few of your arguments with other poster, I am sure that I won't be able to convince you to share the same view with what should we see as "clear". That is all, in the end, just our opinion. But to me the sign is clear enough that Kyube is trying to dodge this question and give only vague answer like "I don't really know myself" or "It may be so, it may be not"

The only way you would know that for sure, is to have more information that we currently know. My opinion is: I don't know for sure. And I suppose I couldn't convince you to see that one should hold an open mind, and not rush to judgment. Once a person picks a position, they are less likely to want to consider others. Indeed, even if the face of contradictory evidence, they will hold to their belief ever strongly. Personally, I feel that's a bad habit to get into. After all, I'm sure you wouldn't want people to jump to conclusions about you, yes?^^

My assumption is also working based on your "assumption" that Kyube is "confident" that Homura made contract with him (He never give definite answer, is he?), and Kyube have no idea who Homura is (He never reject it outright either). How can Kyube can be confident that Homura is his contractee while, at the same time, have no idea who she is ? Without a help from your #1-3 tools, He must be a liar.

I watched the scene again, and I realized he didn't seem confident. So I'll retract that portion (see? I can change my mind based on seeing evidence ^_~). I get the sense he is more confused. Could he be hiding the truth? Possible. I don't see any logical reason why he would, when he outright volunteered the information that Homura was a magical girl and in the area in the first place.

Originally Posted by Kawakanai

Souls seem too important a theme in Madoka (and important to Kyuube I suspect) for Soul Gems to just vaporize when a MG is killed.

Interesting thoughts. if a Soul Gem is made from the soul, then using magic "darkens" the soul itself, and the gem is merely representative of that. A grief seed would be a witch's soul, and act like a magnet, pulling the darkness out of an MG's soul.

[Slick_rick]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

How do you know that? The real answer is: we don't. We do know that he has told the truth with regards to several things so far. He was being truthful about granting wishes and making magical girls. Thus far, we haven't had any evidence he is lying or hiding something. He could, but we don't know that.

Once again you're asking for absolute proof that he must be lying but you were willing to go with the belief that we must believe he's telling the truth before. I'm merely pointing out that you have to consider that he might in fact be not completely honest or lying and that his statement to her was open enough to be taken many different ways.

The only way you would know that for sure, is to have more information that we currently know. My opinion is: I don't know for sure. And I suppose I couldn't convince you to see that one should hold an open mind, and not rush to judgment. Once a person picks a position, they are less likely to want to consider others. Indeed, even if the face of contradictory evidence, they will hold to their belief ever strongly. Personally, I feel that's a bad habit to get into. After all, I'm sure you wouldn't want people to jump to conclusions about you, yes?^^

But, it is a habit you clearly demonstrate no matter how you try to deny it. Don't try to be condescending with me, its clear you're are as locked in your position, if not more, than anyone else on this board.

I watched the scene again, and I realized he didn't seem confident. So I'll retract that portion (see? I can change my mind based on seeing evidence ^_~). I get the sense he is more confused. Could he be hiding the truth? Possible. I don't see any logical reason why he would, when he outright volunteered the information that Homura was a magical girl and in the area in the first place.

You consed a point but don't seem to have changed your mind in the least only slightly more opened it to him actually being deceptive. Though you only barely entertain the possibility.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Slick_rick

Once again you're asking for absolute proof that he must be lying but you were willing to go with the belief that we must believe he's telling the truth before. I'm merely pointing out that you have to consider that he might in fact be not completely honest or lying and that his statement to her was open enough to be taken many different ways.

Because we have no evidence for it. And as I said, if you open the possibility that he is lying (without any proof), then we have to open the possibility of everyone else lying. When you do that, you can't take any words for granted, and thus you destroy any chance you have at speculating. Why? Because anyone can tell you, "You don't know that because they could be lying!"

Such as, "You can't know that Madoka was actually broken up about Mami's death; she could be faking it and lying!"

See how ridiculous that sounds? Unless you have good reason to suspect someone is bending the truth, you only make things more complex for yourself if you automatically assuming lying without cause.

But, it is a habit you clearly demonstrate no matter how you try to deny it. Don't try to be condescending with me, its clear you're aren't as locked in your position, if not more, than anyone else on this board.

You're right, I'm not as locked into my position. Or rather, what you meant to say was that I am locked into my position... which is my position of "I don't know, and thus I'm waiting for evidence."

Yeah, that's a pretty crappy position to be locked into... No one else else should wait for evidence, and instead be willing to knee jerk a moment's notice!

You consed a point but don't seem to have changed your mind in the least only slightly more opened it to him actually being deceptive. Though you only barely entertain the possibility.

Regardless of whether I did or not, what I did was more than a few here would do. But what can I do? I give a little, and get nothin' in return. =(

[Slick_rick]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Because we have no evidence for it. And as I said, if you open the possibility that he is lying (without any proof), then we have to open the possibility of everyone else lying. When you do that, you can't take any words for granted, and thus you destroy any chance you have at speculating. Why? Because anyone can tell you, "You don't know that because they could be lying!"

Such as, "You can't know that Madoka was actually broken up about Mami's death; she could be faking it and lying!"

See how ridiculous that sounds? Unless you have good reason to suspect someone is bending the truth, you only make things more complex for yourself if you automatically assuming lying without cause.

Seriously if you don't see why QB would be bending the situation for his benefit here I'm losing hope for you. You, yourself, even in your previous statement even conceded the point he might be lying so now why are you backtracking? I never assumed he was lying, we were pointing out the fact that in your statement said that we must only consider he's telling the truth. I think we have clearly shown that is not the only possibility. You agree for one post at least...

You're right, I'm not as locked into my position. Or rather, what you meant to say was that I am locked into my position... which is my position of "I don't know, and thus I'm waiting for evidence."

Yeah, that's a pretty crappy position to be locked into... No one else else should wait for evidence, and instead be willing to knee jerk a moment's notice!

My mistake, though its obvious what I meant to say. Yes, that the position is a facade you're in only because it allows you try to suppress anyone who would dare assert that QB might be lying or deceiving these girls. No matter what evidence to the contrary you can all rely on the fact that we haven't been shown proof positive yet. It is a really silly position to be in a speculation thread if not any thread.

Regardless of whether I did or not, what I did was more than a few here would do. But what can I do? I give a little, and get nothin' in return. =(

I'm not buying what you're selling. All the BS removed it clear you only said it to try to appear open but have already started to backtrack to your original opinion.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Slick_rick

Seriously if you don't see why QB would be bending the situation for his benefit here I'm losing hope for you. You, yourself, even in your previous statement even conceded the point he might be lying so now why are you backtracking? I never assumed he was lying, we were pointing out the fact that in your statement said that we must only consider he's telling the truth. I think we have clearly shown that is not the only possibility. You agree for one post at least...

I don't think you quite understand. My point has always been "I don't know" so how could I backtrack? I conceded the possibility that he might be lying long ago. It's the nature of a scientist to consider all possibilities to be on the table, until evidence removes them. Thus far, there hasn't been any to confirm nor deny either side.

Even people who disagree with me, at least know my stance by now.

My mistake, though its obvious what I meant to say. Yes, that the position is a facade you're in only because it allows you try to suppress anyone who would dare assert that QB might be lying or deceiving these girls. No matter what evidence to the contrary you can all rely on the fact that we haven't been shown proof positive yet. It is a really silly position to be in a speculation thread if not any thread.

If you really believe I'm trying to suppress anyone, you should take a second look. I don't know how many times I can say, "We have no evidence either way" before you'd believe me, but I suppose you're locked into your position. Hell, if someone were arguing "It's obviously Kyube is truthful and honest and good" I'd still say, "We have no evidence of that, either."

Really, dude, I'm in the middle. If you wanna hang out on one side, that's fine. But I'm not taking any side at the moment.

I'm not buying what you're selling. All the BS removed it clear you only said it to try to appear open but have already started to backtrack to your original opinion.

Well, I'm very sorry you feel that way. But it appears your mind is made up and will not be swayed no matter what. They do say, that thieves believe everyone else steals. And the corruptible always believe others can be corrupted, and refuse the idea that any might be immune. You might want to keep that in mind before you level any more accusations, because they tend to speak a lot about your own viewpoint.

[Slick_rick]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

I don't think you quite understand. My point has always been "I don't know" so how could I backtrack? I conceded the possibility that he might be lying long ago. It's the nature of a scientist to consider all possibilities to be on the table, until evidence removes them. Thus far, there hasn't been any to confirm nor deny either side.

Even people who disagree with me, at least know my stance by now.

And that why we speculate based on the information we have. Why then do we constantly needed to be remind that we don't know for sure? We all know this. It isn't really a position it's a fact. No, is arguing against the fact that we don't know for sure we arguing the position that with the evidence we are presented opens the possibility that he might be lying because of motives to contract girls.

If you really believe I'm trying to suppress anyone, you should take a second look. I don't know how many times I can say, "We have no evidence either way" before you'd believe me, but I suppose you're locked into your position. Hell, if someone were arguing "It's obviously Kyube is truthful and honest and good" I'd still say, "We have no evidence of that, either."

Really, dude, I'm in the middle. If you wanna hang out on one side, that's fine. But I'm not taking any side at the moment.

I always believed that we have no conclusive evidence either way. That doesn't mean I don't believe we have evidence towards a position. I can back up on opinion so far about how I see QB.

What position am I locked in? That QB is evil? I think I've said numerous times also I'm not certain of that either but I've also assert my disgust with actions I found disagreeable in the past from him and how it makes me view him. Could it change? Sure, but I'm not confidant of that.

Well, I'm very sorry you feel that way. But it appears your mind is made up and will not be swayed no matter what. They do say, that thieves believe everyone else steals. And the corruptible always believe others can be corrupted, and refuse the idea that any might be immune. You might want to keep that in mind before you level any more accusations, because they tend to speak a lot about your own viewpoint.

Yes, I know my own viewpoint and believe in it so I tend to defend it and speak about it. I don't need to be roundabout or BS what my position is. I don't like QB. I don't particularly trust him on a number of issues. I don't know if he's evil but he certainly isn't someone I'd associate with or trust. Do I know all the facts yet? No, but I can form an opinion on what is given so far and speculate on what goings to happen without being constantly remind of something I already know.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Slick_rick

And that why we speculate based on the information we have. Why then do we constantly needed to be remind that we don't know for sure? We all know this. It isn't really a position it's a fact. No, is arguing against the fact that we don't know for sure we arguing the position that with the evidence we are presented opens the possibility that he might be lying because of motives to contract girls.

Then you really shouldn't have had a need to argue with me in the first place. Take a look at what you said that started this:

Originally Posted by Slick_rick

Well QB is not one for telling absolute truths

That didn't sound like it was stated as an opinion, but a fact. And that was in response to me saying that we basically have to take people at what they say until we know otherwise that they are lying. I was merely taking that line of thought to it's logical conclusion.

Seriously, dude, you're arguing with me over nothing. If you really believe we don't know for sure, then you can stop, because I'm not arguing with you over that. We all know it. It's like someone says something, and then you jump all over them because it doesn't fit your viewpoint. In my case, I repeat that I'm merely stating that because we don't know which I presume you will agree with (and your latest post indicates you do). If that's the case, you don't need to appear so defensive.

[totoum]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

That didn't sound like it was stated as an opinion, but a fact.

Here we go again,since it's a speculation thread people just assume that you will know that what they're posting is their opinion and don't make the effort to state that it is,because again,they'll assume you'll know that without them having to tell you.

[Kaijo]

If that were truly the case, then you'd take my words the same and thus wouldn't feel the need to argue.

[Slick_rick]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Then you really shouldn't have had a need to argue with me in the first place. Take a look at what you said that started this:



That didn't sound like it was stated as an opinion, but a fact. And that was in response to me saying that we basically have to take people at what they say until we know otherwise that they are lying. I was merely taking that line of thought to it's logical conclusion.

Seriously, dude, you're arguing with me over nothing. If you really believe we don't know for sure, then you can stop, because I'm not arguing with you over that. We all know it. It's like someone says something, and then you jump all over them because it doesn't fit your viewpoint. In my case, I repeat that I'm merely stating that because we don't know which I presume you will agree with (and your latest post indicates you do). If that's the case, you don't need to appear so defensive.

Yes I say that was my opinion based on what I've seen so far about QB. Just like yours "There are two possible reasons why Kuyube wouldn't know about Homura" is just an opinion and as Arkeus and Hmm came up with other alternatives reasons. I don't think I was trying to make it out as an fact but I was certainly think I have seen enough to justify believing he's not one for telling the "absolute truth" meaning not that he outright lies but he doesn't give all the information he has.

I'm fine with the belief that we don't know yet but I'm generally not fine with that being used to challenge speculation with that. We should only argue what we seen so far while keeping open the possibility that there might be more to the story.

While you might not yet have come to the conclusion that QB is being deceitful I don't see how you can say that the show doesn't at least leave it open enough for the viewer to consider it. That allows all the speculation about the truthfulness of what he says.

I'm not really being defensive but I will admit I have a problem with your way of attacking arguments with "we don't know" more so than I have any problem with your believing QB is lying or not. Playing as if in middle while obvious already a side is just silly. I don't like underhanded stuff and am the type to point it out without about ruffling some feathers.