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BetoJR · 2021-11-01, 12:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tak

Well this escalated quickly...

It's... quite weird, really.

HirouKeimou · 2021-11-02, 03:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tak

Well this escalated quickly...

- Tak

It's because apparently my opinion of what Macross could theoretically change (is not canon) literally pisses him off so much that he goes on for hours about it even when I've given up caring.

After all, he keeps going back to merchandise and marketing, and I'm addressing the original point of the beginning of the discussion which was what the show could change/alter to help its narrative going forward. And ultimately it ends up in circles because apparently the show and merchandise have to be endlessly linked together for the show to be successful when it's been proven to not be true (especially if you count how many disliked Delta but still would buy merchandise).

Obelisk ze Tormentor · 2021-11-02, 04:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

It's because apparently my opinion of what Macross could theoretically change (is not canon) literally pisses him off so much that he goes on for hours about it even when I've given up caring.

Gee, I'm sorry for wanting mechas in my mecha franchise

.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

After all, he keeps going back to merchandise and marketing,

Because that's what keep big mecha franchises alive.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

and I'm addressing the original point of the beginning of the discussion which was what the show could change/alter to help its narrative going forward. And ultimately it ends up in circles because apparently the show and merchandise have to be endlessly linked together for the show to be successful when it's been proven to not be true (especially if you count how many disliked Delta but still would buy merchandise).

They still have the money to make Delta movie thanks to the merchandising. Now imagine if the Delta show had no mechs at all for merchandising? Yeah, no money for more Delta.

Also, if you're talking "financially succesful" then yeah, marketing & merchandising matters at the 3rd place after story & characters.

HirouKeimou · 2021-11-02, 05:13

Obelisk ze Tormentor: The problem is that you're so focused on the merchandise and sales. The original discussion was about plot, as in the story. We were discussing how to go forward with the plot of the show. The show's plot has nothing to do with all the merchandise in the grand scale. And hilariously, you think all of mecha in Macross should only be planes and ships when in reality the genre is quite broad and they could branch out which would make even newer toys to sell, and maybe even reach a newer audience. But Macross is stuck where it is because it's so hyper-focused on space travel specifically. It doesn't help that the alien species they've created has not been super interesting to newcomers. They can sell as many toys as they want, but that won't stop us from complaining about the show, which is the biggest advertisement, after all. And it salutes its older entries way too damn much, to the point where it feels like Frontier should be older than it is because Delta is like "let's salute it even though it's less barely over 10 years old at this point as of the last movie in the series."

Obelisk ze Tormentor · 2021-11-02, 06:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

Obelisk ze Tormentor: The problem is that you're so focused on the merchandise and sales. The original discussion was about plot, as in the story. We were discussing how to go forward with the plot of the show.

I already gave my 2-cents about future Macross shows which involves doing something more creative for the music other than using the boring idols again which are already overused in plenty of other anime in the last couple decades. I even support the "Macross racing" idea.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

The show's plot has nothing to do with all the merchandise in the grand scale.

When it comes to big mecha franchise, you need to incorporate the merchandise (mechas in this context) into the story. Whether the mechs get big roles or small roles depends on the story but they need to be present and relevant.

Also, in recent years, shows about idols are a dime a dozen. You know what's not common anymore? A good Top Gun-ish story with good dogfights using futuristic planes. Yeah, go figure.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

And hilariously, you think all of mecha in Macross should only be planes and ships when in reality the genre is quite broad and they could branch out which would make even newer toys to sell, and maybe even reach a newer audience.

The Valkyries have been Macross' best sellers for decades. They are what separate Macross from other franchises. It is part of its identity. Macross has other mechas in their shows like the Regults & Destroids but their sales pale in comparison. It's not even a stretch to say that the Valkyrie merchandise is what kept the franchise afloat.

Right now, the Macross franchise is in a rough state, generally-speaking. And they still have no hits since Frontier. So I don't think this is the right time for the decision-makers to ditch the one thing that people universally like about the franchise: the Valkyries. I'd be glad to be proven wrong in that aspect when a new Macross show hit us. But as of right now, Valkyries are their life-line merchandise.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

But Macross is stuck where it is because it's so hyper-focused on space travel specifically. It doesn't help that the alien species they've created has not been super interesting to newcomers. They can sell as many toys as they want, but that won't stop us from complaining about the show, which is the biggest advertisement, after all. And it salutes its older entries way too damn much, to the point where it feels like Frontier should be older than it is because Delta is like "let's salute it even though it's less barely over 10 years old at this point as of the last movie in the series."

One of my bold ideas I posted on past pages is to have an actual alien be the MC of the show and we follow his/her (well-written) alien life. At this point, we have too many human-MCs in this supposedly interstellar franchise (not counting side/obscure materials).

magnuskn · 2021-11-02, 07:15

Actually there a lot of non-human characters in Frontier and Delta, it's only that the alien species look very human themselves.

Obelisk ze Tormentor · 2021-11-02, 08:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Actually there a lot of non-human characters in Frontier and Delta, it's only that the alien species look very human themselves.

I said MC (main character), not just characters. So far (anime TV series/OVA series only) we have:

Hikaru Ichijyo
Hibiki Kanzaki
Isamu Alva Dyson
Basara Nekki
Shin Kudo
Alto Saotome
Hayate Immelmann

All of them were (male) humans.
And all of them are Japanese/mix Japanese-descent if we go by their names

.

We need more MC variety.

magnuskn · 2021-11-02, 08:23

I wouldn't mind a female full or half-Zentraedi protagonist myself. ^^

Obelisk ze Tormentor · 2021-11-02, 08:53

^ Yeah, my original idea was to follow Sivil's adventure post-M7 when she decided to traverse the universe. In the hand of a good writer, it could be dope.

Tak · 2021-11-02, 09:57

Hibiki Kanzaki does not exist.

- Tak

Obelisk ze Tormentor · 2021-11-02, 10:06

Canon is overrated

Alchemist007 · 2021-11-11, 21:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

A good Top Gun-ish story with good dogfights using futuristic planes. Yeah, go figure.

You might want to check out Yukikaze if you haven't. It's probably the best CG I've seen in anime so don't let the mention of that throw you off.

Obelisk ze Tormentor · 2021-11-11, 22:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alchemist007

You might want to check out Yukikaze if you haven't. It's probably the best CG I've seen in anime so don't let the mention of that throw you off.

Oh, I've seen that one a looong time ago (1 year after it finished airing IIRC). The moment I read my local anime magazine's article on it, I hunted the fansub like a hungry wolf

.

stray · 2022-09-30, 14:08

I still don't really like Walkure's music (honestly the enemy music was a lot more interesting) but this was a really well executed movie overall. Nice to see Max again, though Show Hayami is so prolific I know him more these days from stuff like Honzuki no Gekokujou and ShimoSeka. The enemies could have used more fleshing out but with the production value and the ending I think its a solid 8 or so for me.

Spoiler for Macross ships:

Ragashingo · 2022-10-01, 01:07

The Macross Delta anime had its good moments, like the training duel between Mirage and Hayate or Freyja singing as she jumped off the carrier, but there was too much of it that didn't stick. Too many filler episodes. The whole thing left me disappointed even though I generally liked the songs.

I guess I watched the 1st movie. Star Singer... blah blah blah? I basically don't remember it.

But this... Absolute Live!!!!! was actually... good!

Part of it, I think, was that it acknowledged the anime at various times but wasn't held back by it and in fact moved past it. This was a sequel, not a retelling, which is kinda what Delta needed. A new chance to tell a good story.

But most of the reason I liked it was because it did finally tell a compelling story using the Macross Delta characters. Hayate and Freyja's relationship troubles entangled with her short lifespan finally actually hit home. Mirage (and Max) both trying to fit into the wrong roles and hitting their true stride when they performed the roles they were actually good at. The tension of the Windermere knights, especially Bogue, in having to tolerate humanity because their king ordered them to. The reference to using a Sharon Apple-ish system to wage war. I don't know... it all just worked where I felt Delta never really, truly did before.

I thought Walkure's opening frozen-themed CG concert was actually pretty good and had some nice flourishes. I thought they made good use of the Walkure songs I recognized. Some of the new Walkure songs seemed decent, it's just hard to get a feel for them and their lyrics while watching the movie for the first time. And yeah, I liked the Yami_Q_Ray stuff, especially once the AI spawned the dark Walkure personas. Again, I couldn't pay much attention to the lyrics, but each of their main songs seemed nicely dark and menacing and a bit provocative. They were good enough I actually want to go back and just watch for their songs and lyrics.

It helps that the movie was very pretty. Art was on point and the combat was pretty decent. It's not my favorite style of Macross combat, which is more the intense and detailed and personal small scale dogfights in Zero and Plus, but it was a lot better than what we going in the base Delta anime.

I think my only real negative was the dumb Makina fan service moment.

There's a lot more to think about and say... my thoughts are pretty scattered right now so I'll have to write a proper review later... but my first impression was: Finally, a good version of Macross Delta!

Oh... and can we deduce yet who the heck Lady M is? We got a vague image of them. Full frame and a zoomed in close up. Is that two women? Can we tell anything from their clothes or body shape or hair?

charles883 · 2022-10-01, 19:00

The purpose show shadows to ensure mystery behind shadow in Megaroad-01.

Kazu-kun · 2022-10-03, 14:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ragashingo

Oh... and can we deduce yet who the heck Lady M is? We got a vague image of them. Full frame and a zoomed in close up. Is that two women? Can we tell anything from their clothes or body shape or hair?

I honestly don't see the point of keeping this a mystery. It's not like we'll get a new Macross show any time soon so it would have been better to reveal this now.

stray · 2022-10-03, 16:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

I honestly don't see the point of keeping this a mystery. It's not like we'll get a new Macross show any time soon so it would have been better to reveal this now.

But... Kawamori has a 40 year record of being a troll. Seeing what was on the table when Max and Arad were talking I'm kind of thankful he doesn't seem to know about pineapple pizza yet.

I'm cautiously hopeful we'll get new Macross sooner rather than later though. About a year after Delta there was an announcement of a new Macross series that nothing came of, so whatever is next has been simmering for a while. And Satelight is pretty free now with nothing announced and their ongoing series like Symphogear concluded. Plus with Harmony Gold in the rear view this can be the first international release for the series.

Anyway for all the shit I gave Delta over the years I'm still shocked how much I liked the movie but it wasn't without its flaws. Still a good end to the Delta saga overall, and I'm looking forward to something new... or more Frontier, either way.

Yu Ominae · 2022-10-10, 06:42

I've yet to watch the movie. Been busy in Singapore doing the requirements of the first trimester for Masters (eg Get the needed papers mostly done before next week, a presentation of crisis management and a Staff Ride. Just finished my presentation on Civil-Military Relations [in Japan]).

Melchizadek · 2022-10-10, 10:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ragashingo

Oh... and can we deduce yet who the heck Lady M is? We got a vague image of them. Full frame and a zoomed in close up. Is that two women? Can we tell anything from their clothes or body shape or hair?

The obvious guess is that the two women in the picture are Misa and Minmay, right?

2021-11-02, 07:15	Link #166
magnuskn Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Hamburg, Germany Age: 48	Actually there a lot of non-human characters in Frontier and Delta, it's only that the alien species look very human themselves. __________________

2021-11-02, 08:23	Link #168
magnuskn Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Hamburg, Germany Age: 48	I wouldn't mind a female full or half-Zentraedi protagonist myself. ^^ __________________

2021-11-02, 08:53	Link #169
Obelisk ze Tormentor Black Steel Knight Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Indonesia	^ Yeah, my original idea was to follow Sivil's adventure post-M7 when she decided to traverse the universe. In the hand of a good writer, it could be dope. __________________

2021-11-02, 09:57	Link #170
Tak Catholic = Cat addiction? Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: MURICA!!	Hibiki Kanzaki does not exist. - Tak __________________ BLESSED IS OUR GOD, THE LORD OF MIRACLES, FOR HE HAS SUPPLIED AN ENTIRE BATTALION WITH JUST FIVE ROUNDS OF AMMO AND TWO GRENADES!! Remember, the toes you step on today may be connected to the @ss you have to kiss tomorrow.

2021-11-02, 10:06	Link #171
Obelisk ze Tormentor Black Steel Knight Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Indonesia	Canon is overrated __________________

2021-11-02, 05:13	Link #164
HirouKeimou Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2016 Location: United States	Obelisk ze Tormentor: The problem is that you're so focused on the merchandise and sales. The original discussion was about plot, as in the story. We were discussing how to go forward with the plot of the show. The show's plot has nothing to do with all the merchandise in the grand scale. And hilariously, you think all of mecha in Macross should only be planes and ships when in reality the genre is quite broad and they could branch out which would make even newer toys to sell, and maybe even reach a newer audience. But Macross is stuck where it is because it's so hyper-focused on space travel specifically. It doesn't help that the alien species they've created has not been super interesting to newcomers. They can sell as many toys as they want, but that won't stop us from complaining about the show, which is the biggest advertisement, after all. And it salutes its older entries way too damn much, to the point where it feels like Frontier should be older than it is because Delta is like "let's salute it even though it's less barely over 10 years old at this point as of the last movie in the series."

2022-09-30, 14:08	Link #174
stray Speedy Sea Cucumber Join Date: Jun 2008	I still don't really like Walkure's music (honestly the enemy music was a lot more interesting) but this was a really well executed movie overall. Nice to see Max again, though Show Hayami is so prolific I know him more these days from stuff like Honzuki no Gekokujou and ShimoSeka. The enemies could have used more fleshing out but with the production value and the ending I think its a solid 8 or so for me. Spoiler for Macross ships: Things are just never going to go well between an idol and a pilot are they...

2022-10-01, 01:07	Link #175
Ragashingo Happy Sphere Join Date: Mar 2021 Location: Texas	The Macross Delta anime had its good moments, like the training duel between Mirage and Hayate or Freyja singing as she jumped off the carrier, but there was too much of it that didn't stick. Too many filler episodes. The whole thing left me disappointed even though I generally liked the songs. I guess I watched the 1st movie. Star Singer... blah blah blah? I basically don't remember it. But this... Absolute Live!!!!! was actually... good! Part of it, I think, was that it acknowledged the anime at various times but wasn't held back by it and in fact moved past it. This was a sequel, not a retelling, which is kinda what Delta needed. A new chance to tell a good story. But most of the reason I liked it was because it did finally tell a compelling story using the Macross Delta characters. Hayate and Freyja's relationship troubles entangled with her short lifespan finally actually hit home. Mirage (and Max) both trying to fit into the wrong roles and hitting their true stride when they performed the roles they were actually good at. The tension of the Windermere knights, especially Bogue, in having to tolerate humanity because their king ordered them to. The reference to using a Sharon Apple-ish system to wage war. I don't know... it all just worked where I felt Delta never really, truly did before. I thought Walkure's opening frozen-themed CG concert was actually pretty good and had some nice flourishes. I thought they made good use of the Walkure songs I recognized. Some of the new Walkure songs seemed decent, it's just hard to get a feel for them and their lyrics while watching the movie for the first time. And yeah, I liked the Yami_Q_Ray stuff, especially once the AI spawned the dark Walkure personas. Again, I couldn't pay much attention to the lyrics, but each of their main songs seemed nicely dark and menacing and a bit provocative. They were good enough I actually want to go back and just watch for their songs and lyrics. It helps that the movie was very pretty. Art was on point and the combat was pretty decent. It's not my favorite style of Macross combat, which is more the intense and detailed and personal small scale dogfights in Zero and Plus, but it was a lot better than what we going in the base Delta anime. I think my only real negative was the dumb Makina fan service moment. There's a lot more to think about and say... my thoughts are pretty scattered right now so I'll have to write a proper review later... but my first impression was: Finally, a good version of Macross Delta! Oh... and can we deduce yet who the heck Lady M is? We got a vague image of them. Full frame and a zoomed in close up. Is that two women? Can we tell anything from their clothes or body shape or hair? __________________ Macross Frontier Episode Guide Last edited by Ragashingo; 2022-10-10 at 01:25.

2022-10-01, 19:00	Link #176
charles883 Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2015	The purpose show shadows to ensure mystery behind shadow in Megaroad-01.

2022-10-10, 06:42	Link #179
Yu Ominae ARCAM Spriggan agent Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Coquitlam, BC, Canada/Quezon City, Philippines	I've yet to watch the movie. Been busy in Singapore doing the requirements of the first trimester for Masters (eg Get the needed papers mostly done before next week, a presentation of crisis management and a Staff Ride. Just finished my presentation on Civil-Military Relations [in Japan]). __________________ Even if we were at odds with each other, I still thank you for training me, Instructor Bowman - Yu Ominae, reflecting on Bowman's death after killing him in Phantom Island