Character Discussion - Kallen

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Mahakala

I saw it as a list of people he geassed and never really sought for the details (guess that's what the BK should of done)

The text is small, but you can make it out. The Black Knights quite literally took it at face value ("I recognize that guy," more or less).

Originally Posted by Mahakala

Yes Lelouch is human but he himself knew he couldn't get out of this situation regardless. "Could of" mind you but wasn't (not like Tamaki's opinion matters anyway). Ohgi's human too and if a lover is caught in the conflict you'll stick up for him/her regardless and it's pretty much a given that Villeta wouldn't lie to Ohgi given all she's been through plus Diethard scheming to keep them quiet didn't win him over as well.

Apparently only Ohgi's opinion matters, since Diethard points out several reasons why it's good that their leader has such a power. Now we're just getting into human nature here. Ohgi never asks the circumstances in which Villetta was Geassed (massacring Elevens) that we know of, and he's all the more of an ass if he did know. Diethard did what he did to keep the army together when those two alone could have torn it apart. A reasonable, if somewhat extreme, course of action.

Originally Posted by Mahakala

Yes Yes it's agreed that the Black Knights are full of fail and the only basis I can defend them by is that they panicked and really wasn't thinking it through (which they should of done) and dug a hole so deep even Kaguya couldn't get them out of it.

Here we can agree at least, though I don't let Ohgi off as easily because the man had time to think about it and convinced the others.

[incorrupts]

Originally Posted by Mahakala

Hence, WHATEVER FLOATS YOUR BOAT (or gets you off......)
If you sleep better at night then good for you

Whether it was right or wrong of them is an open shut case. Would it of made a difference is another story.

You lame remarks-jokes do not work. Fiction has nothing to do with me sleeping well or not.
I will admit though that i am content that one of my favorite characters of the show, got her character-development-resolve confirmed by the staff. If this "confirmation" puts off some people, it is not my issue.

And? I do not think that BK would let Lelouch free even if he did explain to them but this has no relevance with the other. They still had to go with the rights-guidelines. You give them the benefit of the doubt.

[Haku-Men]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

Apparently only Ohgi's opinion matters, since Diethard points out several reasons why it's good that their leader has such a power. Now we're just getting into human nature here. Ohgi never asks the circumstances in which Villetta was Geassed (massacring Elevens) that we know of, and he's all the more of an ass if he did know. Diethard did what he did to keep the army together when those two alone could have torn it apart. A reasonable, if somewhat extreme, course of action.

I'll give this to you too, but it's not like Diethard was thinking of the groups as whole since Zero was the focus of his career and if Zero falls he's left with egg on his face. Ohgi for the lack or better of it was thinking of the group at least when he asked for Japan and I think it's been discussed that Ougi knew Villeta's role in Britannia from the look of her right down to her get up when he found her. As for her alibi well she pretty much spilled the beans that Lelouch blackmailed her and as for Shinjuku well......in order for a marriage to work out lovers must revealed everything about their pasts

[Frostfire]

Originally Posted by incorrupts

You lame remarks-jokes do not work. Fiction has nothing to do with me sleeping well or not.
I will admit though that i am content that one of my favorite characters of the show, got her character-development-resolve confirmed by the staff. If this "confirmation" puts off some people, it is not my issue.

And? I do not think that BK would let Lelouch free even if he did explain to them but this has no relevance with the other. They still had to go with the rights-guidelines. You give them the benefit of the doubt.

I'm going to have to agree with incorrupts, here.

The BK were like idiots on a witch hunt. They did not care about what was right or wrong, they just wanted his blood for "using them" based on circumstancial evidence at best. They were not in the right to just shoot him, and Kallen's actions in defending him are appropriate. He is the one who brought them that far in the first place.

[Haku-Men]

Originally Posted by incorrupts

You lame remarks-jokes do not work. Fiction has nothing to do with me sleeping well or not.
I will admit though that i am content that one of my favorite characters of the show, got her character-development-resolve confirmed by the staff. If this "confirmation" puts off some people, it is not my issue.

If you keep referring back to it I have nothing better but to assume it bothers you for me to think differently than you since you've yet to prove anything but your ignorance over the matter, so you could read all you want for what I care.

Originally Posted by incorrupts

And? I do not think that BK would let Lelouch free even if he did explain to them but this has no relevance with the other. They still had to go with the rights-guidelines. You give them the benefit of the doubt.

Good! Just be like every other fan and ignore the steaming pile of evidence against him and believe that the BK are competent then you'll have a solid argument, but for now not so much.....

Originally Posted by dec4rhapsody

LOL, actually, half of the rankings were todally crack (esp if you consider the descriptions.)

Hmm, IIRC the boohoo rankings

1. Turn 25 Lelouch's death
2. Turn 19 Rolo's death
3. Stage 23 Euphie's death
4. Turn 13 Shirley's death
5. Stage 14 Shirley and Leluch

------crack begins-------------------
6. Turn 18 the Freya Massacre
7. Turn 17 stamp stamp stamp
8. Turn 9 Loli empress' "Xingke!!"
9. Turn 24 Nunnally confrontation

------I call this miracle--------------
10. Turn 22 the onesided yet unforgettable Kalulu chuu

I stopped reading when Rolo's death was above Euphie and Shirley's but LOL at onesided

[Lie]

Originally Posted by dec4rhapsody

LOL, actually, half of the rankings were todally crack (esp if you consider the descriptions.)

Hmm, IIRC the boohoo rankings

1. Turn 25 Lelouch's death
2. Turn 19 Rolo's death
3. Stage 23 Euphie's death
4. Turn 13 Shirley's death
5. Stage 14 Shirley and Leluch

------crack begins-------------------
6. Turn 18 the Freya Massacre
7. Turn 17 stamp stamp stamp
8. Turn 9 Loli empress' "Xingke!!"
9. Turn 24 Nunnally confrontation

------I call this miracle--------------
10. Turn 22 the onesided yet unforgettable Kalulu chuu

I remember when I saw that. I went "LOL!"
But the rankings are such junk LOL. They do it so randomly too.
I honestly think they just make up rankings.

[incorrupts]

Originally Posted by Mahakala

If you keep referring back to it I have nothing better but to assume it bothers you for me to think differently than you since you've yet to prove anything but your ignorance over the matter, so you could read all you want for what I care.

Good! Just be like every other fan and ignore the steaming pile of evidence against him and believe that the BK are competent then you'll have a solid argument, but for now not so much.....

I stopped reading when Rolo's death was above Euphie and Shirley's

You are dismissing facts that came from the staff. I fail to see how this "bothers" me or anything. It does not. I am not the one ignorant here, you are. Go and check some side-materials from time to time.

And i agree with Frost, he said it well. BK just did not care about what was right or wrong. They were ready to assault Kallen as well. They were being blind fools at that point.

[Frostfire]

Originally Posted by dec4rhapsody

Lol, I added the one-sided thing...because the description was focused on Kallen's feelings.

I don't see why they put that there and not her feelings when he died in front of her eyes.

[Haku-Men]

Originally Posted by incorrupts

You are dismissing facts that came from the staff. I fail to see how this "bothers" me or anything. It does not. I am not the one ignorant here, you are. Go and check some side-materials from time to time.

And i agree with Frost, he said it well. BK just did not care about what was right or wrong. They were ready to assault Kallen as well. They were being blind fools at that point.

How am I being ignorant?! I already told you I don't care. I never dismissed anything from the staff. Your the one who seems insistent on that alone to support your arguments. Like I said before dying in vain is pitiful.

[lovecakecookies]

Originally Posted by dec4rhapsody

Lol, I added the one-sided thing...because the description was focused on Kallen's feelings.

what it say?
so it made it number 10 being the 10 most hated/sad scene form the magazine?

Euhpie/Lulu death were about the same for me as far as sadness goes, then Shirelys

[Lie]

Originally Posted by lovecakecookies

what it say?
so it made it number 10 being the 10 most hated/sad scene form the magazine?

Euhpie/Lulu death were about the same for me as far as sadness goes, then Shirelys

Most sad.
Not hated.
Scenes that make you want to cry.

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Mahakala

I'll give this to you too, but it's not like Diethard was thinking of the groups as whole since Zero was the focus of his career and if Zero falls he's left with egg on his face. Ohgi for the lack or better of it was thinking of the group at least when he asked for Japan and I think it's been discussed that Ougi knew Villeta's role in Britannia from the look of her right down to her get up when he found her. As for her alibi well she pretty much spilled the beans that Lelouch blackmailed her and as for Shinjuku well......in order for a marriage to work out lovers must revealed everything about their pasts

We've kinda fallen off-topic. Damn. I'll try to steer it back.

Everyone keeps secrets, and while Villetta certainly wasn't shy about her racism, I doubt she incriminated herself while convincing Ohgi to dump his leader. Sure he knew she was a Knightmare pilot, but this is like saying someone is a soldier. It really doesn't lend much insight.

Diethard's focus, narrow though it may be, still had the bigger picture in mind. Zero needs a way to defeat Britannia, and that's the Black Knights, hence keeping them in line is in his best interests. That's why he ditched the fools after Zero was ousted. They were nothing without Zero.

As for Ohgi bartering for Japan, this is not looking out for the group, at least not in the sense of the UFN. This is looking out for the interest of his specific group, with no regard to the effect throwing out the only competent strategist they have will do to their army if the Britannians decide they want their colony back. It's not like they've proven themselves honorable in this regard. Taking Japan back would have inspired confidence. Getting a bone thrown to them after they got their asses handed to them, not so much.

But, to swing it back to Kallen, let's focus on the meeting. We've both agreed that they panicked and want Zero dead. He's a mind-controlling genocidal maniac for all they know. Ohgi using Kallen as bait to drag him to the firing line and then threatening to kill her when she doesn't play ball? This stretches the limits of the "panic" excuse.

[lovecakecookies]

Originally Posted by Lie

Most sad.
Not hated.
Scenes that make you want to cry.

ah, ok...that makes more sense
yeah it was pretty sad.. sigh.. but I would think that seeing Lulu DIE in front of her would be more sad like you said Lie..lol

[Lie]

Originally Posted by lovecakecookies

ah, ok...that makes more sense
yeah it was pretty sad.. sigh.. but I would think that seeing Lulu DIE in front of her would be more sad like you said Lie..lol

I did not say that.
But I agree.
But this is Newtype.
And they make poll junk up alot.

[lovecakecookies]

Originally Posted by Lie

I did not say that.
But I agree.
But this is Newtype.
And they make poll junk up alot.

whoops.. someone else did sorry.. hehe i wonder how I got confused?!
yeah they prob did make it up...oh well.. what did the description say for the Kallen scene say though?

[incorrupts]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

But, to swing it back to Kallen, let's focus on the meeting. We've both agreed that they panicked and want Zero dead. He's a mind-controlling genocidal maniac for all they know. Ohgi using Kallen as bait to drag him to the firing line and then threatening to kill her when she doesn't play ball? This stretches the limits of the "panic" excuse.

Exactly. They were all gathered with guns in front of two un-armed people yelling and shouting. And you would expect more from someone that is supposed to be the closest to family [after her mom of course] to Kallen. Certainly not be "Kallen, get out of the way, you want to get shot too?" Classy.

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by incorrupts

Exactly. They were all gathered with guns in front of two un-armed people yelling and shouting. And you would expect more from someone that is supposed to be the closest to family [after her mom of course] to Kallen. Certainly not be "Kallen, get out of the way, you want to get shot too?" Classy.

I'm not terribly good with voices, but technically the whole "former terrorists" roster is guilty in this instance. Tamaki says the first part of your quoted line, the blue-haired dude says the second, and then Ohgi (I'm fairly sure) is the one accusing her of being Lelouch's puppet. Not exactly much better, and Ohgi goes along with it anyway.

[incorrupts]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

I'm not terribly good with voices, but technically the whole "former terrorists" roster is guilty in this instance. Tamaki says the first part of your quoted line, the blue-haired dude says the second, and then Ohgi (I'm fairly sure) is the one accusing her of being Lelouch's puppet. Not exactly much better, and Ohgi goes along with it anyway.

Well that was the point. I did not say he said the line but the fact that he was there and letting it happen. And like you stated, also the fact that he used her as a bait.
It is really amusing actually, that they are all gathered there with guns and stuff, they must think that Lelouch is Jesus and whatever he thinks happens in the blink of an eye.
Proves how much of crazy-code-mode they all were there.
I mean, God forbid Kallen for actually doing the right thing, saying the man has a chance to breathe before he gets the 198979 bullets they had ready for him.

[Haku-Men]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

We've kinda fallen off-topic. Damn. I'll try to steer it back.

Everyone keeps secrets, and while Villetta certainly wasn't shy about her racism, I doubt she incriminated herself while convincing Ohgi to dump his leader. Sure he knew she was a Knightmare pilot, but this is like saying someone is a soldier. It really doesn't lend much insight.

Agreed, wouldn't make sense to add in that she slaughtered masses of Japanese to that as well but at that same token we can't necessary say that she didn't mention it to him or he's too stupid to not figure out who she was before (considering she shot him and made it clear what kind of person she was in the season one finale)

Originally Posted by morbosfist

Diethard's focus, narrow though it may be, still had the bigger picture in mind. Zero needs a way to defeat Britannia, and that's the Black Knights, hence keeping them in line is in his best interests. That's why he ditched the fools after Zero was ousted. They were nothing without Zero.

Guess I'll agree with this as well, no matter how much of a scumbag Diethard is he knew how to play his cards. As it was demonstrated the in Turn 23-25 the BK only defense was the Guren SEITEN which too wasn't a match for Lelouch's intellect in the end. Just makes it more frustrating that they all lived happy lives afterwards.

Originally Posted by morbosfist

As for Ohgi bartering for Japan, this is not looking out for the group, at least not in the sense of the UFN. This is looking out for the interest of his specific group, with no regard to the effect throwing out the only competent strategist they have will do to their army if the Britannians decide they want their colony back. It's not like they've proven themselves honorable in this regard. Taking Japan back would have inspired confidence. Getting a bone thrown to them after they got their asses handed to them, not so much.

I was referring to the BK not the UFN as a whole. Although if you go back to Turn 16 they were given approval by representatives to get Japan back from the Britainians by force if necessary, so in the end I can see that going through his mind and since Scheinzel himself saw no interest in the matter of keeping it I doubt he'll want it back in the end (but this is Schenzel so this alone doesn't make a solid response)

Originally Posted by morbosfist

But, to swing it back to Kallen, let's focus on the meeting. We've both agreed that they panicked and want Zero dead. He's a mind-controlling genocidal maniac for all they know. Ohgi using Kallen as bait to drag him to the firing line and then threatening to kill her when she doesn't play ball? This stretches the limits of the "panic" excuse.

Despite his faults I seriously doubt that was Ougi's intention to do with Kallen, he was probably expecting her to move out the way but knew if she supports such a tyrant (which Lelouch blatantly stated) that she herself might be under his geass so to just put her out of her misery. But Kallen was still fighting a losing battle and the fact she knew (or should of) known the consequences of keeping quiet this is unsurprising.

Originally Posted by incorrupts

Well that was the point. I did not say he said the line but the fact that he was there and letting it happen. And like you stated, also the fact that he used her as a bait.
It is really amusing actually, that they are all gathered there with guns and stuff, they must think that Lelouch is Jesus and whatever he thinks happens in the blink of an eye.
Proves how much of crazy-code-mode they all were there.
I mean, God forbid Kallen for actually doing the right thing, saying the man has a chance to breathe before he gets the 198979 bullets they had ready for him.

Uh....what "right" thing?

[incorrupts]

Originally Posted by Mahakala

Despite his faults I seriously doubt that was Ougi's intention to do with Kallen, he was probably expecting her to move out the way but knew if she supports such a tyrant (which Lelouch blatantly stated) that she herself might be under his geass so to just put her out of her misery. But Kallen was still fighting a losing battle and the fact she knew (or should of) known the consequences of keeping quiet this is unsurprising.

Uh....what "right" thing?

My bad here. I guess it applies more to the "rational" word.

Also, lawl. Put her out of her misery if they suspected she was under Geass? K.