Character Discussion - Kallen

[dec4rhapsody]

Originally Posted by incorrupts

roflpalm x 2839
I never liked it, and now there is another reason to dislike it more. |DD;;

Seriously though, we can't know for sure, but my bet would be something along the lines of "all of us there." The completed nostalgic pic of friends/important people, that Lelouch viewed and came to appreciate more, when he was talking to Shirley/Milly/Rivalz back in episode 7.

Though, the interesting part is that Lelouch always avoids Kallen's questions and replies with something seemingly "irrelevant."

Yepp, that man is always dodging her questions...


"all of us there" is plausible, or sth between "I think you should go back to school/go back to a normal life"
unromantic though




As for Kallen's impact on Lelouch...well, Turn 7 was a damn big foreshadowing of the ending, but this belongs to writing/planning category.

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

You guys never stop do you?

てめには関係ない
もう黙れ
返せ

[incorrupts]

Originally Posted by dec4rhapsody

Yepp, that man is always dodging her questions...
"all of us there" is plausible, or sth between "I think you should go back to school/go back to a normal life"
unromantic though

Might be the case. Unromantic line in a total romantic concept though. |DD {if that was the case though}

Originally Posted by dec4rhapsody

As for Kallen's impact on Lelouch...well, Turn 7 was a damn big foreshadowing of the ending, but this belongs to writing/planning category.

Well, a lot of characters had impact on Lelouch throughout the series and helped him made decisions. {like Shirley for example, in the phone-talk in epi 11, was it?}
But i think, one of the strongest impact-moments on him, was definitely Kallen back there in #7. She was the important factor that helped him to wake up, to snap out of it. She was the person that changed the pain and bitterness he had back then and "showed" him the step to kindness again. {she triggered the whole Lelouch going back on Ashford and has his moment of clarity}
Something that btw, Lelouch did for her pretty much within the whole span of the series as well {sometimes non-intentionally, in S1 mostly} but this is another big discussion. {kinda the point of Kallen's poem}

Also guys, lol chill.
@Nobody, it is not a matter of stop-non-stop, something was brought up and we discussed that something on the appropriate section btw {cause lately a lot of posts are getting deleted and frankly beats me why}
If you are to say we never stop, then someone can say, that other fans never stop to jump on our throats for "never stopping" or something. See, never-ending circle in the end, so yeah. D:

[Levy]

Beside the emotive bound, I think that Karen has also an ideologicall impact on Lelouch.

She was the truth inside of the big lie Zero is, a symbol of the potentiality that lies in people and that Lelouch, via his Zero persona, was able to awake and make bloom.

He surely learned to admire her strenght and determination, and she contributed to make him understand how freedom is such a basic value for human beings.

[SonOfHeaven]

I was having a discussion with a friend today. We were discussing ZR and what could have happened if Kallen found out.

We know Lelouch had a wish and wanted Kallen to live. Putting aside one aspect of the poem about Lelouch knowing that Kallen would follow him. What if for whatever reason Kallen sided with Lelouch and she found out ZR would end with Lelouch's death. We were thinking Kallen wouldn't want Lelouch to die(already discussed here). Now, taking an aspect of the poem in consideration about Kallen wanted to follow Lelouch to hell literally.

My question is if Kallen confronted Lelouch about him dying and told him she'll follow him. Though this would conflict with his wish for Kallen and he wouldn't want that. What would Lelouch do? If he dies, she dies and if he lives, she lives. It would have interesting if something like this would have happen.

[incorrupts]

Originally Posted by SonOfHeaven

My question is if Kallen confronted Lelouch about him dying and told him she'll follow him. Though this would conflict with his wish for Kallen and he wouldn't want that. What would Lelouch do? If he dies, she dies and if he lives, she lives. It would have interesting if something like this would have happen.

Well one thing we know, is that probably wanted to avoid that dilemma.

[yvj]

Originally Posted by SonOfHeaven

I was having a discussion with a friend today. We were discussing ZR and what could have happened if Kallen found out.

We know Lelouch had a wish and wanted Kallen to live. Putting aside one aspect of the poem about Lelouch knowing that Kallen would follow him. What if for whatever reason Kallen sided with Lelouch and she found out ZR would end with Lelouch's death. We were thinking Kallen wouldn't want Lelouch to die(already discussed here). Now, taking an aspect of the poem in consideration about Kallen wanted to follow Lelouch to hell literally.

My question is if Kallen confronted Lelouch about him dying and told him she'll follow him. Though this would conflict with his wish for Kallen and he wouldn't want that. What would Lelouch do? If he dies, she dies and if he lives, she lives. It would have interesting if something like this would have happen.

Well Lelouch has a few options

1) He'd trick her.

She'd probably have a self destruct button in her mech and Lelouch would have it switched into a eject button. She'd eject and there would be a message on her screen telling her to live on.


2) He'd convince/sweet talk her into living/ Lie to her like EP 19 and 24

At that point of the scenario this would be very very hard. He might have to mention her mom, but I'd give it only a 10% chance of working.


3) Have Suzaku betray her and disable her mech/knock her out before ZR is over.


4) Knock her up. "Kallen live on and raise Lelouch Jr in a world of peace."

[Lolipopo]

Originally Posted by SonOfHeaven

I was having a discussion with a friend today. We were discussing ZR and what could have happened if Kallen found out.

We know Lelouch had a wish and wanted Kallen to live. Putting aside one aspect of the poem about Lelouch knowing that Kallen would follow him. What if for whatever reason Kallen sided with Lelouch and she found out ZR would end with Lelouch's death. We were thinking Kallen wouldn't want Lelouch to die(already discussed here). Now, taking an aspect of the poem in consideration about Kallen wanted to follow Lelouch to hell literally.

My question is if Kallen confronted Lelouch about him dying and told him she'll follow him. Though this would conflict with his wish for Kallen and he wouldn't want that. What would Lelouch do? If he dies, she dies and if he lives, she lives. It would have interesting if something like this would have happen.

Had Kalen follow him and make him understand she wanted t die with him if he died ?
Well I think he would have come along with his ZR and found a way to make her live on (Like he did in a way...); Or talented like he is he could have convinced her through a talk (leading of course to a love making scene )...

I'm pretty sure that Kallen would hav let him to die eventually. She would have suffer from that but she would have carry along the plan.

Lol why do I have this feeling that had Kallen knew about that, I would have get my Luluko with blue eyes ?

...i'm bitter now -_-

[incorrupts]

I do not think it was necessarily the ZR plan itself that would be the most difficult part. It was more the 2 months time skip {as stated in the middle of R2-25} that was "required" for the final act of ZR.

Lelouch only wanted Suzaku and C.C there knowing the final act, it'd be easier for him to be like this.

I mean, what? Having Kallen there as well, her knowing that Lelouch is gonna die? And him knowing, that she loves him and put her through an agony with no turning back? This is why Lelouch kept her out. He did not want her to suffer.
{i mean hello, he could have used the best pilot of the series //yeah, i believe Kallen is the best pilot of the series// and get through the "technical details" without heartaches and stuff}

[morbosfist]

I'm not sure he could have gone through with it if Kallen had been by his side. He had already dug himself into a hole by the time Nunnally arrived, and she was being manipulated to fight him anyway, but he could have climbed out when he met with her before that happened. The whole plan was conceived because he had nothing to go back to (at least not without a pack of trouble). If he had even one thing left, he never would have taken such extreme measures.

[incorrupts]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

I'm not sure he could have gone through with it if Kallen had been by his side. He had already dug himself into a hole by the time Nunnally arrived, and she was being manipulated to fight him anyway, but he could have climbed out when he met with her before that happened. The whole plan was conceived because he had nothing to go back to (at least not without a pack of trouble). If he had even one thing left, he never would have taken such extreme measures.

The hypothetical scenario's question though, is when would that take place? In epi 22? If he would have told her to go with him? I mean, Lelouch had already his ZR resolve at that point.
I say, everything was screwed at episode 19. Like Kallen was mumbling to herself on the elevator, Lelouch had lost pretty much everyone at that point. Except her. And that was the finishing blow for Lelouch, losing Kallen.

[linkinstreet]

the problem was the writer HAD to do the ZR to end the series. I forsee if they had their own way, maybe ZR was not the end, and Kallen and Lelouch would have a better end than this

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by incorrupts

The hypothetical scenario's question though, is when would that take place? In epi 22? If he would have told her to go with him? I mean, Lelouch had already his ZR resolve at that point.

He had the resolve, but he wasn't truly committed yet. He had the power without having done any overtly evil acts to set him on the path. Turn 22 was like a test of that resolve, in that he had to alienate the one person that really mattered. I'd say he lucked out given that he couldn't even bring himself to talk.

Originally Posted by incorrupts

I say, everything was screwed at episode 19. Like Kallen was mumbling to herself on the elevator, Lelouch had lost pretty much everyone at that point. Except her. And that was the finishing blow for Lelouch, losing Kallen.[/FONT][/B]

Exactly. He just couldn't go back, not with an army of unreasonable people after his head.

[incorrupts]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

He had the resolve, but he wasn't truly committed yet. He had the power without having done any overtly evil acts to set him on the path. Turn 22 was like a test of that resolve, in that he had to alienate the one person that really mattered. I'd say he lucked out given that he couldn't even bring himself to talk.

I suppose you are right. I just have always thought, that after Betrayal Turn, Lelouch's world has to be in a certain way, even if he has to destroy himself and stand in the way of his own desires in order to do it. Like exactly what he did with ZR.
He would make Kallen's wishes and dreams for a better world come true, that was a part of his plan anyway. I guess, he just "buried" his own desire, if i can name it like this. And as always, he never gives the benefit of the choice when it comes to his important people. He decides for them. Oh well, like the epic song says, "another failed romance." {damn you Loli, you know what i am talking about when you see this post. :x}

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by incorrupts

I suppose you are right. I just have always thought, that after Betrayal Turn, Lelouch's world has to be in a certain way, even if he has to destroy himself and stand in the way of his own desires in order to do it. Like exactly what he did with ZR.

He would make Kallen's wishes and dreams for a better world come true, that was a part of his plan anyway. I guess, he just "buried" his own desire, if i can name it like this. And as always, he never gives the benefit of the choice when it comes to his important people. He decides for them. Oh well, like the epic song says, "another failed romance." {damn you Loli, you know what i am talking about when you see this post. :x}

Agree. Still, he wasn't willing to say anything, so he sort of left the choice to her in that instance. Makes one wonder what would have happened if she kept pushing after the kiss.

[incorrupts]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

Agree. Still, he wasn't willing to say anything, so he sort of left the choice to her in that instance. Makes one wonder what would have happened if she kept pushing after the kiss.

Well yeah, but the point of the scene was Kallen asking him something, {anticipating an answer} and him replying nothing. So you can say, in a way, she got her answer. And silence is tricky, it can be interpreted both ways, "affirmative" and "negative".
I guess Kallen, made a mistake there, that was totally justified, judging from Lelouch's overall behavior.
And i also think, another key-moment, after the kiss, when it goes to the whole conference-stage-scenes, the first person that is being shown looking at the huge-ass-conference-screen is Kallen. {zomg, i overanalyze lulz}
I still think she had a tiny ray of hope that maybe Lelouch could do the "right" thing, but after the crap that were pulled in the council, that was pretty much the end.

[Skellington2612]

Too much you write, and so little time to read... so I´ll just say...
Lelouch left Nunally and Kallen out of ZR, because... first of all Nunally was dead, and Kallen because she obviously wouldn´t agree about the fact of him dying...
When he learned about Nunally being alive he couldn´t back off his plan since he was under Suzaku´s grab already... My point is... Has he got Nunally and Kallen on his side ZR wouldn´t happen, because they were people that put limits to him...
Suzaku had his personal vendetta and CC agreed with him almost always...
Sorry for the grammar

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Skellington2612

Suzaku had his personal vendetta and CC agreed with him almost always...
Sorry for the grammar

Agreed with him doesn't work. Zero requiem didn't seem to sit well with her. I'd say it was more than she was an enabler: she let him do as he wished, rather than what she felt was best (that one time in Stage 7 notwithstanding).

[dec4rhapsody]

Originally Posted by SonOfHeaven

I was having a discussion with a friend today. We were discussing ZR and what could have happened if Kallen found out.

Well, I think Kallen's action/reaction would be more predictable, lol (Forget lulu...ugh).
Hmm, Amisuke version would go like this, which is already written out in the interview...
Voila the infamous and cliched "Live on. Atone your sins. Don't escape via death."

I would like to see a slap + "ばっかああああ、ほかの方法があるでしょう！！！！" (BAKA, there must be another way to do this!)


Then again, what about a Noin version?

[azul120]

Originally Posted by Skellington2612

Too much you write, and so little time to read... so I´ll just say...
Lelouch left Nunally and Kallen out of ZR, because... first of all Nunally was dead, and Kallen because she obviously wouldn´t agree about the fact of him dying...
When he learned about Nunally being alive he couldn´t back off his plan since he was under Suzaku´s grab already... My point is... Has he got Nunally and Kallen on his side ZR wouldn´t happen, because they were people that put limits to him...
Suzaku had his personal vendetta and CC agreed with him almost always...
Sorry for the grammar

Suzaku no longer had that vendetta though at that time.

[Levy]

Originally Posted by incorrupts

I still think she had a tiny ray of hope that maybe Lelouch could do the "right" thing, but after the crap that were pulled in the council, that was pretty much the end.

yes, she was pretty much still believing that Lelouch could show he was not a total ass there - and Kaguya too had something similar in mind there - but he proved them wrong and from that point on, it was over...
None can really blame Karen to have fall for his trick.

Originally Posted by dec4rhapsody

Voila the infamous and cliched "Live on. Atone your sins. Don't escape via death."

I would like to see a slap + "ばっかああああ、ほかの方法があるでしょう！！！！" (BAKA, there must be another way to do this!)

I prefer the bitchslap version of yours, LOL. It is very much in chara.

Also it's true that C.C. was not really agreeing, yet leaving Lelouch doing what he wanted - her 'it's enough, you've done good' line and comforting scene in ep.23 suits this mindstate of her.

About Suzaku, I think he was not really thinking on revenge there, better he used the 'revenge' alibi to cut off his hesitations.