Nisemonogatari - Episode 02 Discussion / Poll

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by com_gwp

Sigh, I get the feeling next week's gonna be the same with Hitagi and Hanekawa in the spotlight. Will we actually have to wait another 2 more weeks for the plot to kick in?

Yeah, my take on this episode is basically a mix of what you wrote, and what Reck wrote. It's not the fanservice, per se, that bothered me about this episode, but rather the lack of a cohesive plot (as far as I could tell, anyway).

I do agree with you, though, that the Karen OP was indeed very impressive. That was a nice treat this week.


Rather than simply reiterating much of what Reckoner wrote, which is very close to my own take on this episode, I've decided that I'm going to ask folks familiar with the Nise novel some questions so that I can properly adjust my expectations for this series.


Going into Nise, this is what shaped my expectations:

1) The blurb in the Winter 2012 season preview for it. This made it clear it would focus a lot on Araragi's sisters.

2) The PV. This made it clear it would have better visuals than Bake (which it has successfully delivered to its credit) and also more fanservice than Bake.

So, going into Nise, I was basically thinking:

Bake + Better visuals + More fanservice + Much more focus on Araragi's sisters = Nise

That's what I came in expecting.

However, Nise hasn't quite matched those expectations. While Bake was always character and dialogue-driven, it did have actual story arcs. It did have a plot, and it wasn't what I would consider a slice of life show, or a show that was pure ecchi. There were serious problems that had to be solved, and some real conflicts took place.

These conflicts/plots weren't the main reason I watched Bake, but I felt that they added to the sense of purposefulness that permeated the show. Bake was slow-paced but it did feel like character and plot development of lasting relevance was steadily occurring.

Honestly, I'm not getting that feeling with Nise so far. It was no big deal after just one episode, but after two, I was hoping we'd have more plot than just some vague hints of problems going on at the school that Araragi's sisters attend.


So, with all of this being said, here's my questions for fans here who have read the Nise novels:

Does Nise have a plot to it? Is there an actual conflict? Another supernatural threat of sorts for Araragi to grapple with, perhaps?

Or is this more of a pure, straight-up ecchi romcom where we just watch Araragi go from one sexually tense situation to the next to the next to the next?

I'm not saying that Nise is necessarily bad if that is what it is, but if that is what it is, I'd like to know that now so I can adjust my expectations going forward.

Thanks in advance to anybody that can answer my questions here.

[Shikijin]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Does Nise have a plot to it? Is there an actual conflict? Another supernatural threat of sorts for Araragi to grapple with, perhaps?

Yes. When Karen Bee ends watch the episodes again, and you will see the plot.

Or is this more of a pure, straight-up ecchi romcom where we just watch Araragi go from one sexually tense situation to the next to the next to the next?

Yes to this as well.

The same as Bake, except Nisio is juggling all the girls at the same time.

[0utf0xZer0]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

I also had problems with how they seem to have discarded Nadeko's original appeal. I thought she was supposed to be the cute, shy girl with a crush who bravely is trying to act on it in a clandestine manner... But in this episode she was practically throwing herself at him, her personality was almost completely different. I also just don't like her new character design haha.

I just watched the Nadeko scene for a second time in order to get my thought together for this thread - and for some reason, I had very diffirent reactions to it the two times.

The first time my reaction was pretty much the same as yours "That's not Nadeko! Nadeko is supposed to be shy!"
I didn't have any of that the second time I watched. Instead, she felt like the same Nadeko I remember from season one, trying to appeal to Koyomi in a clandestine fashion because she's too shy to use a head on approach.

Still trying to figure out what made the difference, though if I had to guess I noticed the subtleties in her voice and mannerisms more second time around.

(Also, for some reason season one left me wondering if Nadeko is a closet exhibitionist.)

[frubam]

This episode was even funner than the last, but not quiiiite as interesting. I still find the dialogue with Mayoi to be the best thing that's happened in the series so far, since it felt as if there was some slight char development or resolve from Araragi. I didn't feel any of that in this episode, but that by no means makes this a bad episode. In Bake, Hitagi got her own episode(12), so it's nice to see Nadeko[, Mayoi] and Kanbaru getting that treatment here, w/o any reason other than fanservice, even though it was only half-ish an episode per char. Esp Kanbaru. I'm not too big on seiryuus, but Miyuki Sawashiro's way of slightly breathing before/during/after her dialogue REALLY emphasizes the sexuality of Kanbaru's char =03.

Also, seeing Araragi flipping, grabbing Karen's feet from upside-down in mid-air and landing REALLY makes me anticipate that Kize(?) movie. Can't wait to see him at his full vampire strength .

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Shikijin

Yes. When Karen Bee ends watch the episodes again, and you will see the plot.
Yes to this as well.

It can't be yes to both. One precludes the other.

Thanks for the advice all the same.

The same as Bake, except Nisio is juggling all the girls at the same time.

Bake was not a pure, straight up ecchi romcom. That's not an accurate assessment of Bake, imo.

A pure, straight up ecchi romcom would be something like R-15. Bake had a much different overall feel than that.

[Kanon]

The story arcs in Bakemonogatari were only two to three episodes long, it makes sense the plot moved faster in those arcs. Karen Bee, on the other hand, will be five episodes long (or is six?) and therefore can afford to spend time on previously introduced girls while hinting at what the main plot is going to be. It makes for a good build-up.

Tsubasa cat, also five episodes long, followed a similar structure. There's really not that much difference between the first two episodes of Tsubasa Cat and the the first two episodes of Nise if you compare them. It might be too early to complain.

I think the other reason the harem aspect of the series is more obvious in Nise is that Meme is not there anymore (I miss the guy, by the way). One, because he was the only other male character in this series and that alone made it appear a little less harem-ish; and two, because his presence was a constant reminder of the supernatural aspect of the show. Now the anime features only one boy surrounded by half a dozen girls. I'm not surprised people feel the series has changed. I personally don't think it has, though. I've always seen Bakemonogatari has a smart and atypical romcom with supernatural elements, and not the other way around. That may be the key difference between those who are loving Nise and those who are disliking it.

[Daniel E.]

2 episodes in and still no signs of Hanekawa.

[Zetsubo]

Originally Posted by Daniel E.

2 episodes in and still no signs of Hanekawa.

Its still the same day

July 29th

She wont appear till August 1st

[Malkuth]

@DanielE:finally, someone else shares my pain

As for equating Nisemono with ecchi... well, you guys need to watch one or two ecchi shows without plot or character development first.

In these first two episode, there is development as well as bits and pieces of what will probably be the arc's storyline, you just need to get over your visual overload

[apr]

You'll have a hard time finding anyone who disagrees when you say Nisemonogatari is weak compared to Bakemonogatari. I'm puzzled that they decided to animate these books at all. Hopefully it won't scare away potential viewers from Kizumonogatari when the movie comes out, because that book blows everything else in the series out of the water.

Someone once described Nisemonogatari as "Koyomi's victory lap", and it really is just that. Taking the trophy tour after gathering his harem. Don't expect plot and you should be fine.

[Shikijin]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

It can't be yes to both. One precludes the other.

This tertium non datur is the flaw in your logic.

Araragi meets with a girl.
Sexual jokes.
Things important to the plot.
Repeat.

That's how you can have both. It is very simple.

Bake was not a pure, straight up ecchi romcom. That's not an accurate assessment of Bake, imo.

And neither it is Nise. But if we take your words as an exaggeration we can see we are essentially meaning the same thing.

I stated it many times already, but I repeat: it is true that there is more fanservice in Nise than in Bake. Your senses are not deceiving you. On the other hand it's not like this was unknown territory for the series.

Originally Posted by Malkuth

@DanielE:finally, someone else shares my pain

I don't complain because I know the story already, but anyway I'm a big fan of Hanekawa too

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Kanon

The story arcs in Bakemonogatari were only two to three episodes long, it makes sense the plot moved faster in those arcs. Karen Bee, on the other hand, will be five episodes long (or is six?) and therefore can afford to spend time on previously introduced girls while hinting at what the main plot is going to be. It makes for a good build-up.

Tsubasa cat, also five episodes long, followed a similar structure. There's really not that much difference between the first two episodes of Tsubasa Cat and the the first two episodes of Nise if you compare them. It might be too early to complain.

This is pretty much what I was thinking as well. With this show, rather than a whole bunch of tightly-written story arcs in rapid succession, you just have two major related story arcs that will last the entire show. Meanwhile, they're also continuing to feature all the other heroines that aren't front and center, something that was less required in the first season (since all these heroines each had their own arc). So for people who liked the tightly-focused driving plot that moved from situation to situation the first time, I don't think that's what we'll get from here on out. And from what I understand about the novel titles (don't know anything about the contents), this symptom will only get worse going forward as future novels were heroine-specific, which means a lot more time spent developing a single over-arching theme rather than a whole bunch of tightly-woven mini-mysteries one after the other. Assuming all the other heroines will feature to some degree in all of these future stories, I don't think we'll get another anime that has the same sort of pacing as Bakemonogatari, as that was unique to that particular novel in this series. And no doubt that will cause some people who liked the first series to disengage from the franchise.


On a quasi-related note, I do want to ask novel readers to try to limit the hints given in this thread, even in response to criticism. It's somewhat useful to help people understand what they should expect, but by the same token you're also ruining a bit of the surprise. Questions directed to novel readers should probably go to the novel thread, or we should create a spoiler & speculation thread for novel readers.

[Marcus H.]

I'm puzzled that they decided to animate these books at all.

It's part of the series. You can't deny that, even if the plot for Nise has a lot of differences compared to Bakemonogatari.

[Malkuth]

^ The structure of storytelling is different to be precise.

[Sol Falling]

I felt slightly less engaged this episode as well. That was largely due to Kanbaru's section. That's why confirmation of this:

Originally Posted by Shikijin

It is still early for the viewer to get the importance of visiting Kanbaru, but there is one, I assure you. All the pieces of the puzzle are falling in line.

is exactly what I was looking for.

I began to feel this way as the discussion progressed regarding Hitagi's section last episode, but at this point I'm really strongly feeling the idea that "you will see the plot in these episodes once the arc is over". I don't know whether this will turn out to be a weakness or a strength, but it is now directly clear in the audience experience how there are structural differences between Nisemonogatari and Bakemonogatari.

As far as the seemingly common novel-reader's perspective that "Nisemonogatari is the weakest, most fan-service heavy, or undirected part of the series", I still protest that we should not be approaching this sequel as if it is devoid of substance entirely. "Araragi's victory lap", "Nishio messing around" or not, this season should still contain at least a minimum core narrative which should be more than adequate to meet, as fans coming in from Bakemonogatari, our expectations.

You didn't notice, but the story actually advanced even in this episode. Nadeko mentioned that the matter the Fire Sisters are involved with is the "charms" Nadeko suffered from, and that they were searching for the one who spread the charms around. Nadeko was objectively the best character Araragi could get this info from. All the rest was something funny to fill the chapter.

As you can see the story progressed solidly. There is indeed a lot of fanservice, even more than Bake, but you got rosy memories if you think Bake didn't have any. This was also in line with the characters, as Nadeko for example liked being seen with a swimsuit by Araragi, and Kanbaru as a self-styled pervert had to walk the talk eventually. The part with Nadeko was even more funny in the novel, as Araragi was superdense and there are all his thoughts about how he viewed Nadeko as a child.

Regarding the Nadeko section, although I haven't even read the novels, I could really somehow feel the compression the Omimon talked about. In fact, rather than over-emphasis on fanservice, I actually feel like what SHAFT did was overemphasize the plot (rushing through the scenes to focus solely on the expositional Fire Sisters conversation) at the expense of keeping us in Araragi's mind and playing out the humour which was the real counterpoint to the fanservice.

As Johnny mentioned, there is actually a Bakemonogatari doujin which is, as far as I can tell, a more or less direct expansion of that sequence with Nadeko in the novel. It is most certainly porn and not for the eyes of children, but in truth it seems to be more brilliant/effective as a humour piece (based on the scene as it is portrayed in the novel) than as jackoff material. Google "bakemonogatari anoosk" if you are interested; alternatively, if leaving pointers to that sort of material is prohibited I will edit this post and people can direct their inquiries to me by PM.


Neither Karen's OP nor Claris' ED match up to Bake's best stuff last season, for me, musically (Staple Stable, Kimi ga Shiranai Monogatari, and Renai Circulation being the ones I'd call notable). I'm slightly concerned, now, whether Nisemonogatari will match up. If we're lucky SHAFT will be up to animating full separate OPs for each of the heroines, but in the worst case we'll have just one further chance with Tsukihi's opening.

The animation has been pure eyecandy though. Good stuff.

[Jarmel]

Kanbaru is god-tier. That is all.

[frubam]

Okay, unless it will be revealed later, someone tell me; what's in the closet =03?

[blakstealth]

Un-fuckin-belieavable episode.

I loved every second of it. We had Nadeko's hhnngggg, a pretty sick nasty intro to Karen, and just great amount of lulz with Kanbaru. I fuckin enjoyed all of it!

[omimon]

Originally Posted by frubam

Okay, unless it will be revealed later, someone tell me; what's in the closet =03?

It will be revealed later than sooner.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Shikijin

This tertium non datur is the flaw in your logic.

There wasn't a flaw in my logic.

I used the word "pure" in front of "straight-up ecchi romcom" for a reason.

Pure as in "100%". Pure as in "this is all it is".

Bake was more than a 100% ecchi romcom. What I was asking is if Nise would be more than that as well.

After discussing this with you, I take the answer to that to be "yes", but that I'll need to wait for it. Fair enough.

And neither it is Nise. But if we take your words as an exaggeration we can see we are essentially meaning the same thing.

I wasn't exaggerating. Episode 2 really did feel like almost pure ecchi romcom to me.

But I'll trust you that some plot-relevant dialogue and details were given out in this episode, but that I'll need to rewatch after the fact in order to determine that. Thanks for the info.

Originally Posted by Kanon

The story arcs in Bakemonogatari were only two to three episodes long, it makes sense the plot moved faster in those arcs. Karen Bee, on the other hand, will be five episodes long (or is six?) and therefore can afford to spend time on previously introduced girls while hinting at what the main plot is going to be. It makes for a good build-up.

Well, it's of course a matter of taste, but I prefer the more tightly-written story arcs approach, as Relentlessflame eloquently described. That is indeed one of the things I liked about Bake, and took away from it.

I think the other reason the harem aspect of the series is more obvious in Nise is that Meme is not there anymore (I miss the guy, by the way). One, because he was the only other male character in this series and that alone made it appear a little less harem-ish; and two, because his presence was a constant reminder of the supernatural aspect of the show. Now the anime features only one boy surrounded by half a dozen girls.

Yeah, I definitely miss Meme, and precisely for the reasons you laid out. Well said.

I'm not surprised people feel the series has changed. I personally don't think it has, though. I've always seen Bakemonogatari has a smart and atypical romcom with supernatural elements, and not the other way around. That may be the key difference between those who are loving Nise and those who are disliking it.

It might help to write that I started watching Bake in large part as a rebound off of disappointment with Haruhi 2009 (i.e. E8). Bake gave me everything that I had hoped to get in Haruhi 2009.

So, for me, the supernatural elements of Bake were just as important as the supernatural elements of Haruhi were, and that's pretty important of course. So in fairness it could be that those elements weren't as important as I thought they were.