(L) Vivid Red Operation

[Jimmy C]

Originally Posted by darkhalo191

I'm saying that after the accident, she was brought to Akane's world to live there by herself.

I'm begining to get an idea of where you're coming from. So I'm willing to put the age issue aside. I still say you're wrong about how long it's been since the accident, but you can wrap yourself in your delusions.
And you appear to have misconceptions about some other things, let's work on those.

I don't really get it either but Kenjiro was the only one who knew about the test as well so I guess they find a 'champion' of a world and give it to them to see how they would react and if the rest of the world is worth keeping alive.

That may apply to Rei, but it doesn't apply to Akane's world. As we've seen throughout the series, he doesn't play a key role after handing the Red Key to Akane. Why should Rei and Akane's world be tested the same way? Rei's world already failed the test Akane's is facing.
And I have to wonder, did you think Kenjiro only started working on the Vivid system after the accident 7 years ago?

The crow said, "The Manifestor's energy became critical..." and Rei restates her mission, "My duty is to destroy the Manifestor Engine..." Both entities are referred to Manifestor and they use the term 'the' instead of 'that', your' or 'this' which means that the two things are not completely independent.

Do you have a problem grasping how words can be dropped from a sentence for brevity? If I say about "using the Subway" in New York, and then I go to London and say "using the Subway" while there, am I talking about the same "Subway" in both cases? And because I use the term 'the' instead of 'that', 'your' or 'this,' does it mean the two things are not completely independent?
When the crow said that, she was obviously referring to the Manifestor in Rei's world since she was talking to Rei only, would there have been a point in adding "of your world" there? Furthermore, while Rei just says "the Manifestor Engine..." in ep5, she explicitly says her task is to destroy the Engine in this world in ep10. So, do you think her mission's changed in 5 episodes, or was she talking about the same thing in fewer words in ep 5?

[Auxilism]

Originally Posted by Jimmy C

you can wrap yourself in your delusions.

Sure, make personal attacks because they always drive discussion. I don't like to be aggressive and people do that to me in turn to get me to back down. It usually works because I won't see the point in debating any further, it would just turn into a heated argument. You can think that I lose because I back off if it makes *censored vicious remark* (no, a mod did not do that).

That may apply to Rei, but it doesn't apply to Akane's world. As we've seen throughout the series, he doesn't play a key role after handing the Red Key to Akane.

The government wanted to execute Rei immediately (episode 11) but he recognised that killing her just to save his world would be unacceptable, especially since she's not from his world so he doesn't know her true motives. Is she really a cold and ruthless killer, or does she have something that she misses so badly that it clouded her judgement? He chose to see the good in her which shows that he is not blinded by the motivation to defend his world that he would kill anybody necessary to do it (thus, his friendship speech).

Why should Rei and Akane's world be tested the same way? Rei's world already failed the test Akane's is facing.

We only know that Rei's world was destroyed due to the Manifestor malfunctioning. Whether it was due to an Alone or some other factor (my theory that Kenjiro's Engine caused a disturbance in the universal energy and it built up to something akin to a tsunami could be one). If we use my theory, Rei's motivation is not that hard to see. 'You destroyed my world, I see no wrong in doing the same.' Her test then would be to see if she could recognise that the people of that world are actually good people and do not deserve destruction just so that she can bring back he world.

And I have to wonder, did you think Kenjiro only started working on the Vivid system after the accident 7 years ago?

I re-watched episode one and Kenjiro says that he spent half his life on it so I admit that I was completely wrong. However, it wouldn't be completely wrong to say that he spent a whole lot more time on it after knowing about the test. He took full responsibility for the accident by giving away all his patents (although the board did blame him for it) and became an outcast. Without all those obligations and his genius, he could have found a way to make money and at least bring his family's financial status to average but he chose to lock himself up in the room for long periods of time in order to finish it (I could argue that he still hadn't finished it as he pressed that button when the Alone arrived to complete the key but he didn't put in enough preventive measures as it blew his mind into that toy but it was completed nevertheless.) He knew that if he (and his granddaughters) did not suffer now, they would die along with the rest of the world.

Do you have a problem grasping how words can be dropped from a sentence for brevity? If I say about "using the Subway" in New York, and then I go to London and say "using the Subway" while there, am I talking about the same "Subway" in both cases? And because I use the term 'the' instead of 'that', 'your' or 'this,' does it mean the two things are not completely independent?
When the crow said that, she was obviously referring to the Manifestor in Rei's world since she was talking to Rei only, would there have been a point in adding "of your world" there? Furthermore, while Rei just says "the Manifestor Engine..." in ep5, she explicitly says her task is to destroy the Engine in this world in ep10. So, do you think her mission's changed in 5 episodes, or was she talking about the same thing in fewer words in ep 5?

Both Subways have similar systems and similar issues can arise from them, right? I'm not saying that there is only one Engine, but the two Engines have similar design and the same problems can arise for both of them. Let's say that the two Subways are connected by a really long track. If an explosion which short circuts wires (I don't know about the strength) is set off in New York, the tunnel which connects it to London would carry the destruction all the way there. Both Subways would have no electricity and wouldn't be able to operate. You may say that there's no such explosive strong (or realistic) enough to do that but that's not the point. In this franchise, the Engines tap into energy which runs across universes so all Manifestors are connected by the energy they draw. When Kenjiro's Engine messed up, it could have caused a disturbance in the universe which built up as it continued to travel, ultimately smashing Rei's world via the Manifestor (but it was due to Kenjiro's Engine (my tsunami theory again)).

[Jimmy C]

Originally Posted by darkhalo191

Whether it was due to an Alone or some other factor

If it wasn't due to the Alones, then I find it one hell of a coincidence that they 'just happen' to find Rei on a world that blew up its Engine by itself.

If we use my theory, Rei's motivation is not that hard to see. 'You destroyed my world, I see no wrong in doing the same.'

That's a stretch. No one ever said that, not Rei, not the Crow, not them, even when saying so would be beneficial. Such as motivating Rei to continue her mission. If that were the case, you'd see Crow trying to stick this in Rei whenever she thought she was wavering from her mission.

When Kenjiro's Engine messed up, it could have caused a disturbance in the universe which built up as it continued to travel, ultimately smashing Rei's world via the Manifestor

You make it sound as if there's only two Manifestors out there. You forget, Crow has been testing and blowing up worlds with Manifestors for a very long time. If anything, their actions have been causing more disturbance than anything Kenjiro or Rei's world has done.
Also, we do not know whether what happened with Kenjiro's Manifestor seven years ago was due to their own fault or interference from them. If the latter was the case, then it's their fault Rei's world died by your theory.
You want to say it's not their fault two Manifestors on two parellel worlds failed, yet they're there, talking to people in the immediate aftermath of the incidents? Two major coincidences there, what are the chances?

[Auxilism]

Originally Posted by Jimmy C

If it wasn't due to the Alones, then I find it one hell of a coincidence that they 'just happen' to find Rei on a world that blew up its Engine by itself.

They want to test which worlds are worthy of using the universal energy so it is likely that they would be able to track where the energy goes to and then pick which worlds to test from there. Since Rei's world was destroyed due to the Manifestor having a meltdown, a lot of energy must have flowed to it so they would be alerted to that world.

That's a stretch. No one ever said that, not Rei, not the Crow, not them, even when saying so would be beneficial. Such as motivating Rei to continue her mission. If that were the case, you'd see Crow trying to stick this in Rei whenever she thought she was wavering from her mission.

I admit that having it explicitly stated like that is unlikely but the crow and Rei herself have reminded her that destroying the Engine means getting her world back which means everything to her. We also see that Rei doesn't care about large scale destruction (powering the first Alone and the one in episode 8 to kill a lot of soldiers) but saved a boy. You could say that it doesn't mean that she thinks that the people of that world are at fault but it still means that she has to overcome the sheer desire to restore her world at any costs to pass the test.

You make it sound as if there's only two Manifestors out there. You forget, Crow has been testing and blowing up worlds with Manifestors for a very long time. If anything, their actions have been causing more disturbance than anything Kenjiro or Rei's world has done.

I agree that this is possible (ie, the disturbance gains momentum no matter which way it's going although it could lose it as well) but you brought up the point that they can restore anything. They could go, "Oh, this world does not have to be tested yet/should not be involved in this test." and restore all the damage that they've done after the impact (then everybody would go, "What a weird dream, I thought everybody died." Weird, I know.). They are also kind of the guardians of this kind of energy so it is possible that they can negate the build-up as well.

Also, we do not know whether what happened with Kenjiro's Manifestor seven years ago was due to their own fault or interference from them. If the latter was the case, then it's their fault Rei's world died by your theory.
You want to say it's not their fault two Manifestors on two parellel worlds failed, yet they're there, talking to people in the immediate aftermath of the incidents? Two major coincidences there, what are the chances?

If it was their own fault, refer to my first paragraph of this post (the Engine overloaded but not to the extent of Rei's and they tracked the sudden spike). However, it totally being their fault is plausible as well due to your point. They could have set up all the circumstances to create conflict between between two worlds and see if they can rise above it. If so, they can just undo all the damage. This is especially demonstrated when Rei pleads with the crow not to destroy Akane's world, even if she may never get her own world back.

This doesn't mean that I'm totally throwing away the theory that Kenjiro's Engine caused Rei's world to be destroyed. They could have selected his world to test, caused the accident, directed the feedback towards Rei's world and warn him that there would be more to come so he had better do something with the energy. Meanwhile, the crow brings the message to Rei because they know where the surge of energy is going and set the test up for her.


Can we just admit that both sides are not entirely definite and let this go? You are willing to (begrudgingly) let the age issue slide (I will still change my post when all this is over) which was the main cause of the debate and now we are discussing the consequences between the Engines, universal energy and them although they would have a system to track where the energy is going to (if not everywhere they go would be a huge coincidence which you don't like) and they have a master reset (brought up by yourself) to replace anything damaged in the crossfire. I may keep this up for one or two more posts before retiring and letting you think whatever you want to of me.

[Jimmy C]

Originally Posted by darkhalo191

They could have selected his world to test, caused the accident, directed the feedback towards Rei's world and warn him that there would be more to come so he had better do something with the energy. Meanwhile, the crow brings the message to Rei because they know where the surge of energy is going and set the test up for her.

How did they test Akane's world? By sending one Alone after another to attack the generator. Yet here, you're proposing they 'tested' Rei's world by directing a disturbance from another Manifestor at theirs. Quite the difference, I wonder how Rei's world was supposed to pass this particular test given that there appears to be no defense against it. Had this been thrown at Akane's world, they'd be all dead already, Vivid system or not, just like Rei's world.

And you should think about what you're proposing again. That an accident that didn't cause much damage or deaths at one point (While Akane's father was killed, Kenjiro, Mashiro and Akane survived, and damage was limited, or they wouldn't have built a fullsized Engine later) rolled on and accumulated strength for years (because that's what's implied if Rei's world wasn't killed 7 years ago but later) to later cause a disturbance to destroy a different world. We're talking events that orders of magnitude apart in scale.

And comparing the chain of events to a tsunami the way you do is wrong. Tsunamis are the result of devastating earthquakes on the seabed. The destruction around the epicenter is actually a lot more widespread than what you see when the tsunami reaches shore. We aren't concerned about the destruction on the seabed because we have nothing there. You theory is like saying if a kiloton bomb was set off on the seabed, it would cause a tsunami when the water displacement reached shore. That doesn't happen. Low energy events don't cause high energy ones like that.

[Akito Kinomoto]

Guys, guys.

What's a plothole?

[Kogetsu Shirogane]

I think it's that place plots go when they want to hide from action scenes.

[Auxilism]

Originally Posted by Jimmy C

Yet here, you're proposing they 'tested' Rei's world by directing a disturbance from another Manifestor at theirs. Quite the difference, I wonder how Rei's world was supposed to pass this particular test given that there appears to be no defense against it. Had this been thrown at Akane's world, they'd be all dead already, Vivid system or not, just like Rei's world.

I bring back my 'champion' theory; they select the most moral person (Rei) and tell her that she needs to do something horrendous to get something she cherishes a lot back. Thus, her world was destroyed (whether by them or not) which causes her emotions to completely take over and become willing to destroy another world for her own. If even the most upright person cannot rise above negative emotions, the world is likely to misuse the energy so they should perish.

And comparing the chain of events to a tsunami the way you do is wrong. Tsunamis are the result of devastating earthquakes on the seabed. The destruction around the epicenter is actually a lot more widespread than what you see when the tsunami reaches shore. We aren't concerned about the destruction on the seabed because we have nothing there. You theory is like saying if a kiloton bomb was set off on the seabed, it would cause a tsunami when the water displacement reached shore.

I apologise for my ignorance on tsunamis, I just remembered the animation played when I was watching a documentary on it where they showed two plates rubbing against each other and then the tsunami's destruction. They did not show the scale which the seabed was wrecked with respect to the land probably because of what you said, there's nothing there.

That doesn't happen. Low energy events don't cause high energy ones like that.

I agree that it's impossible with the whole 'energy can't be created or destroyed' so since tsunamis don't build up energy due to rushing along the bottom of the ocean (whatever energy they have is due to whatever destruction was caused on the seabed if I understand it correctly), I'll bring in two more cases.

And you should think about what you're proposing again. That an accident that didn't cause much damage or deaths at one point rolled on and accumulated strength for years (because that's what's implied if Rei's world wasn't killed 7 years ago but later) to later cause a disturbance to destroy a different world. We're talking events that orders of magnitude apart in scale.

Objects experience free-fall because they have (gravitational) potential energy. In a year, there are 60*60*24*365.25=31,557,600 seconds. If an object were to experience free-fall for that amount of time, it would build up to a monstrous 31,557,600*9.81=309,580,056 m/s or 696,555,126 miles/h which is even faster than light. Sure, we're not talking about the disturbance falling from Akane's world to Rei's but the disturbance moves through the energy which is universal. We could say that it has *insert fancy name* potential energy which can build up the force (not literal newtons) for when it finally strikes Rei's world after all that time.

The second case I can think of is imagining that there are something like asteroids whizzing around Kenjiro's Engine. When it malfunctioned, it applied small vectors to them which threw all/some/a few/one of them out of orbit (apply them tracking the out of control energy masses and negating them/resetting any unwanted damage again). Without the 'gravitational field' of Kenjiro's Engine, they would fly around in the universal energy field without any decrease in 'speed' until another Engine pulls them in with its 'gravitational field' and one/it probably hit Rei's world head-on, causing the much more severe overload and destruction.

Originally Posted by http://science.howstuffworks.com/nature/natural-disasters/asteroid-hits-earth.htm

In other words, if an asteroid strikes Earth, it will be a really, really bad day no matter how big it is. If the asteroid is a mile in diameter, it's likely to wipe out life on the planet. Let's hope that doesn't happen anytime soon!

I know that some points may be completely nonsensical to you but I'm not claiming them to be the absolute truth and I think that this has gone out of proportion anyway.

Originally Posted by Akito Kinomoto

Guys, guys.

What's a plothole?

Something that most debaters will go back and forth on for extended periods of time until one side admits complete defeat and concedes that the other side is the prophet of truth.
Don't worry, I'll probably back off after the next post and ignore any snide remarks.

[Jimmy C]

Originally Posted by darkhalo191

I bring back my 'champion' theory; they select the most moral person (Rei) and tell her that she needs to do something horrendous to get something she cherishes a lot back.

.......

the most moral person (Rei)

most

moral

person

You honestly tell me you believe a forteen-year old
KID
is the most moral person on the planet?
A planet of several billion people and you believe she's the most moral person out of them all?
And you believe the incident that wrecked her world happened years earlier, so that makes her younger at time and this whole thing even more unbelievable!
I've seen you stating your belief in some incredible things, but if you actually believe this, I'm done. There's no talking sense into someone like you.

Without the 'gravitational field' of Kenjiro's Engine, they would fly around in the universal energy field without any decrease in 'speed' until another Engine pulls them in with its 'gravitational field' and one/it probably hit Rei's world head-on, causing the much more severe overload and destruction.

When the phenomena left Kenjiro's Engine, it did so with relatively little energy. It probably didn't even cause the destruction of the prototype Engine, or neither Kenjiro nor Akane would have survived. Even if it didn't lose 'speed' over the intervening years, it's still a low energy phenomena. There's no way any kind of 'pull' from Rei's world would increase it to the point where it could devastate the planet when it hit.

We could say that it has *insert fancy name* potential energy which can build up the force (not literal newtons) for when it finally strikes Rei's world after all that time.

It doesn't work that way. For the phenomena to gain energy, it has to be fed energy from somewhere. Your analogy works only if the phenomena started with zero energy. And if it had zero energy, it wouldn't have left Kenjiro's Engine in the first place.

FYI, a mile wide asteroid striking the Earth at any speed is not a low energy event. It's not surprising that it would kill everything on the planet.
A 10 meter metor striking the Earth at a piddly 100m/s is a low energy event. Yes, it would ruin your town if it hit there, but the rest of the planet wouldn't even notice.
What you've been saying so far is like saying that the 10m rock at 100m/s can end all life on the planet.

Something that most debaters will go back and forth on for extended periods of time until one side admits complete defeat and concedes that the other side is the prophet of truth.

You are the one with the ideas. I'm just poking at them. If they were sound to begin with, you wouldn't have to pull out all these even more outlandish ideas to shore it up. Have you noticed? All these ideas of yours about how a phenomena can travel from Akane's world to Rei's and kill it that I keep showing as shaky, it's all because you insist that the accident in Akane's world caused the destruction of Rei's. Sever that link, and things become much simpler and sounder for you. We'd be left with just Rei's age during the incident which I've set aside too.

Oh, and it'd be fun if you can answer this too:

In a year, there are 60*60*24*365.25=31,557,600 seconds. If an object were to experience free-fall for that amount of time, it would build up to a monstrous 31,557,600*9.81=309,580,056 m/s or 696,555,126 miles/h which is even faster than light.

The International Space Station has been in free-fall for years, why hasn't it gone flying away at lightspeed?

[scr]

whoa, time to munch some crow-flavored popcorn.

[Akito Kinomoto]

Originally Posted by Jimmy C

.......







You honestly tell me you believe a forteen-year old
KID

14? With her figure? I thought she was closer to 17.

But I keep forgetting this is anime.

At least the Rei X Akane pairing isn't as, uh, age discrepancy'd as it looks.

[Jimmy C]

Do remember Akane was in middle school in ep 1. When she transferred schools, Rei was in her class, 2-A. Therefore, Rei is the same age as Akane, 14.

[Auxilism]

I can tell that you're going to blow a gasket soon if you haven't so I'll just make my replies short and back off from this (maybe post the final goodbye). See me in any light you want to.

This is fantasy/action anime where the protangonists are mostly very young.

Spoiler for Nanoha 2nd movie:

Chrono didn't cry when he was three and his father died.

Spoiler for Madoka Magica:

Madoka was idealistic enough at 14 to overwrite the witch system at the cost of her existance. It also has to do with Homura's timeskipping which bulit up her karma but Madoka chose to go out that way.

Spoiler for Strike Witches:

Yoshika joined the army at 14 because she wanted to save as many people as she could. Lucihni was even younger when she joined.

Spoiler for Naruto:

He was treated as an outcast as a child but he strived to become better so that they would recognise him instead of wanting to kill them for ignoring him.

Spoiler for One Piece:

Sabo regrets being born a noble (or something like that) when he saw what they did when he was a child (I'm not really sure a about this point).

If a vector of 1 million newtons experiences another vector of about 1 thousand newtons perpendicularly, the new vector which acts on the object has increased magnitude and a new direction. A large asteriod need not be affected directly, a smaller one could have been deviated from it's path which hit the bigger one, unleashing more force to push it away from the gravitional field.

Energy is not gained, but converted to another form which was the force which struck Rei's planet.

If that'll stop this, then fine. I was bothered that you might go back and argue over her age again if I gave that point away but if you're actually willing to let it go if I admit defeat in this area, then I will. I'm tempted to point out the difference in our attitudes but I won't (it would also depend on how a third person views it). Don't burst a blood vessel or whatever they're called.

The station orbits around Earth, what I've calculated is freefall in a single direction.

[NaweG]

So has anyone seen what the sales figures were on this? While I find a season 2 of this unlikely I'd be interested in whether the team was considered to have produces a success... or not.

[Newhope]

Just watched some of this, why anybody would watch trash like this is beyond me.

Sales where 7,580 for the frist volume so second season is very possible unfortunately

[novalysis]

Originally Posted by Newhope

Just watched some of this, why anybody would watch trash like this is beyond me.

Sales where 7,580 for the frist volume so second season is very possible unfortunately

Because Mahou Shojou sells. When was the last Mahou Shojou that flopped?

I'm sure that if you have a Mahou Shojou show, with a Shounen hero at the center of a harem of Mahou Shojous, it'd sell even better.... wait, I'm sure there are some shows that have come close to that concept.

[Newhope]

It's bad even for Mahou Shojou show, oh well at least it didn't sell as well as predicted.

[Akito Kinomoto]

Originally Posted by Jimmy C

Do remember Akane was in middle school in ep 1. When she transferred schools, Rei was in her class, 2-A. Therefore, Rei is the same age as Akane, 14.

Thanks. I'll be sure to use the grade someone is in to determine how old he or she is if a number isn't given. I was being facetious though if my remarks about me forgetting this is anime didn't make that clear. By the way, I'm doing it again.

If anyone has an empirical source an Akane's age I'm all for seeing it~

[Random Wanderer]

Originally Posted by Akito Kinomoto

Thanks. I'll be sure to use the grade someone is in to determine how old he or she is if a number isn't given. I was being facetious though if my remarks about me forgetting this is anime didn't make that clear. By the way, I'm doing it again.

If anyone has an empirical source an Akane's age I'm all for seeing it~

It's been stated outside of the series, but I don't think they ever said it inside.

And yes, using the grade someone's in IS a perfectly good way to judge their age in anime. Quite often it's the best we'll get.

[Jimmy C]

Originally Posted by Random Wanderer

And yes, using the grade someone's in IS a perfectly good way to judge their age in anime. Quite often it's the best we'll get.

It's usually correct to within six months, thanks to the Japanese school year starting in April instead of January. It's only off if a character has jumped grades or got held back. In such cases, they'll usually say so in the show.

Originally Posted by darkhalo191

If a vector of 1 million newtons experiences another vector of about 1 thousand newtons perpendicularly, the new vector which acts on the object has increased magnitude and a new direction.

The new vector would have shifted off its original heading by only a few degrees, thanks to the fact that the additional vector introduced was only 0.1% of the original, even if it was at 90 degrees to it. It certainly won't be something as impressive as a 45 degree shift or more. You don't seem to understand the concept of magnitude here.

Energy is not gained, but converted to another form which was the force which struck Rei's planet.

If energy is not gained, then what struck Rei's world will be no more powerful than what left Akane's world. Since the latter did not destroy the planet, the former could not have enough power to do so either.
Conversion is irrelevant, because conversion causes energy loss in the converted form. That would make what struck Rei's world weaker even if there was no energy loss in transit.

The way you have been arguing all this time is like saying that if you drop a pebble in a lake, the ripples will result in a tidal wave that will sweep the opposite shore. Do you know how ridiculous that is?