[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[Leafsnail]

I thought Kinzo's death was down to the all that absinthe he drank.

Incidentally, the strongest piece of evidence against Kinzo's murder would be the following red from ep4 (referring to the ep3 FT):

I shall say more with the red! When the five other than Kinzo were murdered, the murderer was definitely in the same room!

Similarly, at the time, she was unable to say they were all murdered.

If Kinzo was in fact murdered, why didn't she just say so in the first place?

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Leafsnail

I thought Kinzo's death was down to the all that absinthe he drank.

Episode7 seems to suggest this is true.

[kamuinoyume]

Originally Posted by chounokoe

This and there are several murders that cannot be explained with a Battler culprit theory. Like Episode 1's 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th twilight and the Natsuhi murder, Episode 3's 4th, 5th, 6th twilight and the Nanjo murder and Episode 4 is practically unsovable at all unless you assume that Jessica, George and Maria also lied about what happened in the guesthouse and were playing out an act.

Well, considering the fact that I based my theory mainly on this being a Buttler centered show, and us viewers seeing only what HE wants us to see, the red and gold writing can't really disprove my theory. Hypothetically, if Buttler was the murderer, and we'd be able to see only what he wants us to see, well, that the way events happened and even if they even happened at all can be put to the question, since there really is no real way for either me or you to prove that Buttler is not the murderer if he were the true mastermind behind the game (I doubt his that dumb as to out himself).

And, I never said that Jessica, George or Maria were in on the whole matter. The first twilight murders of the first two arcs took place at night. ANYONE could have sneaked out of the house and killed those people, they would have had plenty of time. As for the rest, as I've mentioned, Buttler centric story, we see only what we're supposed to see, and not always what we see is the truth, and I think the goat scenes speak for themselves (because if they really want to prove that those murders were not done by magic, and taking into account that there are only 17 people on this island, a man would have to be the culprit).

There is also the question of who gave Maria the letter in episode 1 if there are only 17 people on the island?

[Will Wright]

I am a few pages behind the discussion. Are we saying that Umineko turned into And Then There Were No Ackroyds?

[chounokoe]

Originally Posted by kamuinoyume

Well, considering the fact that I based my theory mainly on this being a Buttler centered show, and us viewers seeing only what HE wants us to see, the red and gold writing can't really disprove my theory. Hypothetically, if Buttler was the murderer, and we'd be able to see only what he wants us to see, well, that the way events happened and even if they even happened at all can be put to the question, since there really is no real way for either me or you to prove that Buttler is not the murderer if he were the true mastermind behind the game (I doubt his that dumb as to out himself).

But according to that idea, you could assume that a blue, winged rabbit creature from the ocean ate them all.
Approaching a story from the position of doubting what was obviously introduced as a method to make reasoning possible would lead the whole idea of the story ad absurdum.

Originally Posted by Will

I am a few pages behind the discussion. Are we saying that Umineko turned into And Then There Were No Ackroyds?

Where and why exactly did you get that idea?
Or more correctly asked, what are you trying to imply?!

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by kamuinoyume

There is also the question of who gave Maria the letter in episode 1 if there are only 17 people on the island?

Why do you assume you need an extra person to do that in episode 1 at all? As Kyrie pointed out one of them obviously had to be lying.

[Will Wright]

Originally Posted by chounokoe

Where and why exactly did you get that idea?
Or more correctly asked, what are you trying to imply?!

just had time to read the topic quickly and I saw the words "Battler culprit" so my mind jumped straight to that reference.

[kamuinoyume]

Originally Posted by Judoh

Why do you assume you need an extra person to do that in episode 1 at all? As Kyrie pointed out one of them obviously had to be lying.

I did not assume that there was and extra person on the island, I just acknowledged that it had to be one of them.

And while I do realize that my theory happens to be a little far-fetched, it does remain a valid possibility up until the game, or better said, the answer's arc prove me wrong.

And frankly, I only had the nerve of coming up with it when I sat down and consider that it is indeed a complicated game, and I'm kind of hoping that they don't do the obvious thing and blame Natsuky for the first, Rosa for the second and Eva for the third arc, because in the forth, Buttler and Maria are the only ones left on the island, so, unless you suspect Maria...the culprit has to be Buttler.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by kamuinoyume

And while I do realize that my theory happens to be a little far-fetched, it does remain a valid possibility up until the game, or better said, the answer's arc prove me wrong.

Well the question here is, what could be considered an "invalid possibility" if you think red truths, mystery rules, and metaworld perspective can be ignored entirely?

There is no more reason to think that gameboard scenes are more reliable than red truths, in fact most people believe in the exact opposite.

You theory is "valid" only with certain premises, but with those premises practically anything can be considered "valid".

With the premises that:
-you need to find a culprit according to mystery rules
-red truths are undeniable truths meant to help us find the culprits in the game

your theory isn't valid, and most people here believe those premises shouldn't be questioned.

[kamuinoyume]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Well the question here is, what could be considered an "invalid possibility" if you think red truths, mystery rules, and metaworld perspective can be ignored entirely?

I'm not trying to ignore any of those, I'm merely trying to interpret them.

Because, the magical scenes, or the ones that happen in "Limbo" are not real, if this show is indeed trying to confuse us into believing that magic is real only to prove us wrong at the end.

So, if they're not real, they can't be useless, because they were obviously put there for a reason, namely, to guide us toward the correct answer. They might be symbols, metaphors or illusions or confused memories of the characters that a story.

And considering the fact that they are spoken from Buttler's point of view, they have to be related to him. So, if you take everything that exists in limbo as a metaphor, that would mean that Beatrice herself is not real, and therefore is a part of Buttler's subconscious which is trying to convey a message to him, mainly: who she is. Isn't that what she's been asking him since that episode (was it 4 or 5?) in which she was "defeated". And that's what got me thinking that, we don't actually know who his real mother is, and seeing as Beatrice died roughly around 18 years ago, it isn't unreasonable of thinking that she's his mother. And from this point on, the rest of the theory flooded in smoothly.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by kamuinoyume

I did not assume that there was and extra person on the island, I just acknowledged that it had to be one of them.

Well then... Most people think it's either Shannon or Kanon. Because the cousins should be under the detective's watch at the time, and the adults excluding Rosa a couple of times, have alibis by being busy with the conference pressuring Krauss. And Gohda, Kumasawa, and the others are just not suspicious for various reasons.

So that leaves Shannon and Kanon who don't particularly have any excuse except that they claim they didn't do it.

[kamuinoyume]

Originally Posted by Judoh

Well then... Most people think it's either Shannon or Kanon. Because the cousins should be under the detective's watch at the time, and the adults excluding Rosa a couple of times, have alibis by being busy with the conference pressuring Krauss. And Gohda, Kumasawa, and the others are just not suspicious for various reasons.

So that leaves Shannon and Kanon who don't particularly have any excuse except that they claim they didn't do it.

There is also the Snannon theory which I've hear of from my brother. He claims, and correctly if my memory doesn't fail me, that Beatrice and Shannon are never seen in the same room with other people, and that she Beatrice is another personality of Shannon, and that Shannon staked her own death in the first arc, and then went around and started killing people off the map.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by kamuinoyume

There is also the Snannon theory which I've hear of from my brother. He claims, and correctly if my memory doesn't fail me, that Beatrice and Shannon are never seen in the same room with other people, and that she Beatrice is another personality of Shannon, and that Shannon staked her own death in the first arc, and then went around and started killing people off the map.

I think you mean "Shkanon" theory. And yes Beatrice can be considered a personality. However the theory comes from Shannon and Kanon never being seen together by other by other people. Not Beatrice.

A lot of people think it's hogwash though.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by kamuinoyume

I'm not trying to ignore any of those, I'm merely trying to interpret them.

and how do you interpret this?

Battler-kun is not the culprit.
Battler-kun didn't kill anyone.
This can be said of all games.

You said it yourself that red truths are there to guide us to the correct answer.


The fact that Battler's mother is unknown then is not really a good hint to claim Battler's involvement in a crime that was clearly preplanned.

At this point there are overwheleming hints about Yasu being the child from 19 years before and that she is in fact the daughter of Beatrice2.

How can Battler fit in this picture? Is he Yasu's twin brother? Do you find plausible that umineko is the story about two fraternal twins falling in love with each other?


Even assuming this, why would Battler decide to resort to mass murder just because of that? Why he should involve the innocents? What fault has Maria? What fault have Kyrie, Jessica, George, Shannon, Kanon?

Episode 7 tells us that we shouldn't take lightly the heart of the people. You can't throw any motive without a proper explanation.

[kamuinoyume]

Originally Posted by Judoh

I think you mean "Shkanon" theory. And yes Beatrice can be considered a personality. The theory comes from Shannon and Kanon never being seen together by other by other people though. Not Beatrice.

A lot of people think it's hogwash though.

Actually, if you think about it, Shannon is the ONLY human being with whom Beatrice has spoke before the events of Rokenjima. There was that episode where she asked Shannon to break the mirror in the shrine.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by kamuinoyume

Actually, if you think about it, Shannon is the ONLY human being with whom Beatrice has spoke before the events of Rokenjima. There was that episode where she asked Shannon to break the mirror in the shrine.

You're forgetting that Kanon talks to her in the same episode before that more than once.

And Natsuhi in episode 5.

You're right though Shannontrice theory often overlooks the Beatrice she talks to in episode 2.

[Jan-Poo]

There's also Maria, Kumasawa, Genji, Nanjo and Kinzo who talked to Beatrice before 1986

[kamuinoyume]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

and how do you interpret this?

Battler-kun is not the culprit.
Battler-kun didn't kill anyone.
This can be said of all games.

You said it yourself that red truths are there to guide us to the correct answer.


The fact that Battler's mother is unknown then is not really a good hint to claim Battler's involvement in a crime that was clearly preplanned.

At this point there are overwheleming hints about Yasu being the child from 19 years before and that she is in fact the daughter of Beatrice2.

How can Battler fit in this picture? Is he Yasu's twin brother? Do you find plausible that umineko is the story about two fraternal twins falling in love with each other?


Even assuming this, why would Battler decide to resort to mass murder just because of that? Why he should involve the innocents? What fault has Maria? What fault have Kyrie, Jessica, George, Shannon, Kanon?

Episode 7 tells us that we shouldn't take lightly the heart of the people. You can't throw any motive without a proper explanation.

Alright. Assuming that Buttler isn't the murderer (which I won't be completely convinced until I see the answer's arc), who do YOU think actually committed the murders in the previous arc?

[TehChron]

Originally Posted by Judoh

You're forgetting that Kanon talks to her in the same episode before that more than once.

And Natsuhi in episode 5.

You're right though Shannontrice theory often overlooks the Beatrice she talks to in episode 2.

Not double Shannontice, though.

Under that interpretation, Kanon is simply aware that Shannon is talking to herself, and he acknowledges the dual-personality aspect of his nee-san.

Or we can simply chalk up the reactions to Kanon being there as embellishment from it being a fantasy scene.

Originally Posted by kamuinoyume

Alright. Assuming that Buttler isn't the murderer (which I won't be completely convinced until I see the answer's arc), who do YOU think actually committed the murders in the previous arc?

Who's Buttler? Are you referring to Genji? Hes the only Butler that comes to mind.

[kamuinoyume]

Originally Posted by TehChron

Not double Shannontice, though.

Who's Buttler? Are you referring to Genji? Hes the only Butler that comes to mind.

Sorry I misspelled his name, it's Battler Ushiromiya I was referring to