(L+CR) Darling in the Franxx

[Cosmic Eagle]

ED animation is pretty interesting.....Wouldn't mind a spinoff of everyone in present day life. Nice OP too

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

I don't know, but none of that sounds fun to me.

I don't think their worlds have a lot of choices regarding that. Maybe orphans are treated worse.

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

They can't be fine with it when they don't even know about sexuality. On top of that they don't even have the choice to not pilot. They are told piloting is all they can do and they're disposed off if they don't do it. The witches on the other hand can choose not to become witches. They have that choice. And their lack of shame is not due to ignorance.

Eh, you chose to be offended in the way they arrange the piloting seats. But considering the setting, it might not be such a big deal (for the kids and adults) and won't count as exploiting anything. They might consider this the equivalent of "first-world problem" in their world . And again, we're still waiting for more explanation. Also, we still haven't seen the adults treating the kids in a sexual offense kinda way. In contrast, we only have Professor Grabass who harassed a perfectly mature woman so far .

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

To try piloting again. They probably thought he still had potential.

Maybe.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

I don't think their worlds have a lot of choices regarding that.

I don't think there's any valid reason to treat the kids like slaves. Even if they need them to pilot, there's better ways to go about it. But I already said that.

But considering the setting, it might not be such a big deal (for the kids and adults) and won't count as exploiting anything.

The kids don't have the choice to decide whether it's a big deal because they're ignorant about sexuality.

Also, we still haven't seen the adults treating the kids in a sexual offense kinda way.

They're making them drive their sexually-fueled machines while keeping them ignorant about sexuality and without giving them the choice to not pilot. That's bad enough in my book.

[Irenesharda]

Watching this episode, I'm reminded of why I couldn't really get into Kill la Kill either. Being from the kind of household I'm from and the people I grew up with, I've never been that comfortable with overly blatant sexual symbolism or content and while I have very little experience with Trigger or A-1, I'm beginning to get the idea that they seem to specialize in this very fanservice-y area.

I really wish they would tone it down though. It's just personal for me, but I can't really find all the innuendo that funny or interesting. It just makes me cringe and want to fast forward. Somehow all I can think of as I watch them try to pilot, is how uncomfortable that position looks for the girls and what would happen if whatever secures them unlatches during a fight, and simply from their position alone, they would shoot right through the front of their own mech and be crushed thanks to inertia.

I actually am really liking the plot though, and the world building and what's going on in the background. I wish I could just fastforward all the awkward bits and get to those parts.

I feel sorry for Ichigo, but something tells me she's going to appreciate this upset later, as I feel like some sort of "Luke and Leia" reveal might come and she finds out that she's actually Hiro's sister.

The fact that their code numbers are one number off has me suspecting this. They are the only two in the series with code numbers in sequential order (015 and 016). Also, they sort of look a little alike, both with dark hair and bluish-green shades of eyes. And being his sister, like any sibling, you do share an affinity of a sort. But it's not the same kind that a lover would have.
It would also be the reason that 02 didn't really come down the hard on the girl and didn't feel her as a threat of any kind and why she even said she "liked her". She probably has a similar, if completely different, taste her her "darling".

02 herself is sometimes a bit annoying, but I still like her to a degree. Hiro's pretty cool too. I'm glad he's so gung-ho, though I hope he can find his own self-worth and not feel like he's worthless if he can't pilot or if he's not with 02.

EDIT:
Zorome is also the current most irritating character thus far. I can see why his code number is 666.

[Malicre]

You guys were saying they come from an "orphanage but still human" from what i took away from the first 2 episodes is that they are cloned or genetically altered humans born in test tubes and "orphanage" is just a code word, like in the first episode when the chick was leaving and being sent home, it felt like she was being killed because she was no longer useful.

Thats just my opinion.

[Gan_HOPE326]

Originally Posted by Irenesharda

Watching this episode, I'm reminded of why I couldn't really get into Kill la Kill either. Being from the kind of household I'm from and the people I grew up with, I've never been that comfortable with overly blatant sexual symbolism or content and while I have very little experience with Trigger or A-1, I'm beginning to get the idea that they seem to specialize in this very fanservice-y area.

TBF, at this point Trigger almost has more NO fanservice shows than fanservice ones, despite their fame.

Fanservice-y Trigger shows:
* Kill la Kill
* Darling in the FranXX
* Some episodes of Ninja Slayer

Non fanservice-y Trigger shows:
* Kiznaiver
* Space Patrol Luluco
* Little Witch Academia (OVAs and series)
* Inferno Cop

Trigger shows no one gives a flying fuck about or remembers:
* When Supernatural Battles Become Commonplace

So yeah, it's 4 to 3. And Little Witch Academia alone was so wholesome you could show it to your 4 year old daughter without a hint of shame. In this case I'd say sexual symbolism is more a staple of the mecha genre. Evangelion aside, if you've seen more recent stuff like Valvrave, Star Driver or Captain Earth, you know the trend has gotten increasingly over the top and ridiculous. So this is just the natural culmination of that .

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Okay Kazu-kun, you made this big deal about the doggy-seats and you claimed that it’s a form a sexual exploitation by the higher ups that you take offense to. My question is: How are the higher ups of a post-apocalyptic world even exploit this kind of thing? To be exploiting means you fully use what you have to reap the ultimate benefit out of it (which isn’t wrong when done right). Now, aside from making the kids being able to pilot the Franxx well (which is a good thing), what other (evil) benefits that the higher ups will reap from the doggy-seats exactly?

So, we have this scenario where kids are forced to pilot (in hetero pair) mechas that can save humanity in cockpits with doggystyle seats. What can be exploited from that? Do the higher ups sell the cockpit footage to the horny masses to get billions of cash? Do they made a reality TV show out of it? Do they release porn mags out of it? Do the higher ups jack off to footage of kids in full-body suit doggy-piloting their mechs in battle? Does the doggy-seats gave them more opening to sexually harass the kids? How? Do they just find the entire thing amusing in a trollish kinda way? None of those scenarios are shown to be true so far. You’re welcome to give some input of your own for this case. I personally think that the doggy-seats are more sexual exploitation (aka. fanservice) by the show mostly for the audience instead of for an in-universe party.

Note:
If Professor Scope-eye McGrabass was the one who designed and built the Franxx and he made the cockpit that way for the lulz, that means the exploiting blame can be put entirely on him . I imagine the higher ups only gave the seal of approval to what he proposed as the best method to fight the Klaxosaurs without fully comprehend why it had to be that way. And the designer’s fetish doesn’t mean the entire higher ups are guilty for “exploiting” the kids by using the doggy-seats.

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

I don't think there's any valid reason to treat the kids like slaves. Even if they need them to pilot, there's better ways to go about it. But I already said that.

They're making them drive their sexually-fueled machines while keeping them ignorant about sexuality and without giving them the choice to not pilot. That's bad enough in my book.

It’s not valid nor justifiable. Then again, this is a post-apocalyptic world under fire from giant alien-dinosaurs. Social values can work differently in this kind of setting especially when it involves the survival of mankind.

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

The kids don't have the choice to decide whether it's a big deal because they're ignorant about sexuality.

And that’s a big deal because........?

In the grand scheme of things, how much the kids being aware of sexuality is such a trivial matter compared to the survival of mankind. And it’s not like they are sexually harassed or anything (so far). And they still seem to be aware about the idea of intimacy and skinship. If they don't, those pilots wouldn't made such a big deal when 02 was being lovey-dovey with Hiro.

EDIT:

Originally Posted by Gan_HOPE326

In this case I'd say sexual symbolism is more a staple of the mecha genre. Evangelion aside, if you've seen more recent stuff like Valvrave, Star Driver or Captain Earth, you know the trend has gotten increasingly over the top and ridiculous. So this is just the natural culmination of that .

Some Mazinger shows & manga themselves are sexually-charged. And Mazinger is one of the pioneers/progenitors of mecha anime.

[drawr]

This show's fanservice feels counter intuitive in a way I never saw before. I don't mind fanservice at all, I enjoyed Kill la Kill for the most part and some series I follow have such elements. But all characters have never been completely ignorant of what sex/sexuality was in them, so maybe that's why I find this show odd.

The tragedy in the show is that these children are being used as essentially commodities from a young age and need to work until they die. For some reason, the adults force them into a series of sexual metaphor codenames and yet none of them know what sex or a kiss is. They feel useless if they cannot do this work. The girls seem to only exist in the cockpit to connect(have sex with) with the guy/show off their ass to him(arousal?). There is even a disembodied ass in the dummy machine to replace the girl while the guy practices. The girls(and only them) experience orgasm, but don't know what it is. And the show will likely make a statement on how bad the adults exploiting these poor, ignorant children are. Even though it's all done to titillate the audience. Is it trying to pull an evangelion? I don't get the vibe it has as much self awareness. Even compared to aquarion.

Yet when it has a scene where this issue is clearly causing one the characters(Ichigo) serious emotional plight, it can't stop shoving the camera up her ass. When things get serious and the character is clearly emotionally distraught it doesn't work for me. I mean overall, the show has a very serious tone but with the ridiculous set ups it's hard to take seriously.

[Gan_HOPE326]

I don't think the fact that the symbolism is sexual is supposed to be something that the characters themselves are super aware of - everyone seems to play this completely ridiculous setup with an absolutely straight face, so we probably should just take it at face value. I do think that the "child soldiers" angle in general will be meaningful, because frankly the APE and other upper echelons seem shady as fuck and will probably turn out to be villainous or something.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

I personally think that the doggy-seats are more sexual exploitation (aka. fanservice) by the show mostly for the audience instead of an in-universe party.

Using the kids and their sexuality to pilot the robots without giving them any choice is the in-universe exploitation. The higher-ups don't have to get anything else from this.

If Professor Scope-eye McGrabass was the one who designed and built the Franxx and he made the cockpit that way for the lulz, that means the exploiting blame can be put entirely on him . I imagine the higher ups only gave the seal of approval to what he proposed as the best method to fight the Klaxosaurs without fully comprehend why it had to be that way. And the designer’s fetish doesn’t mean the entire higher ups are guilty for “exploiting” the kids by using the doggy-seats.

They're all the same shit as far as I'm concerned.

It’s not valid nor justifiable. Then again, this is a post-apocalyptic world under fire from giant alien-dinosaurs. Social values can work differently in this kind of setting especially when it involves the survival of mankind.

Even then, it's still not a valid justification.

And that’s a big deal because........?

Not having a choice is the big deal.

On a side note, do we even know how much of humankind is still alive anyway? All we've seen are the kids, the geezers and military grunts. Is there any civilian population left?

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Using the kids and their sexuality to pilot the robots without giving them any choice is the in-universe exploitation. The higher-ups don't have to get anything else from this.

They're all the same shit as far as I'm concerned.

Not having a choice is the big deal.

So now you dropped the "sexual exploitation"-angle and focus on "not having a choice"-exploitation? If so, then get your complaints in line. There are many mecha stories where the protags don't really have a better choice other than piloting the mechs (sexual seats or otherwise. It's not like anyone will have a look at and jack off to the cockpit footage or sell them in this kind of universe) . Even some of the best mecha stories have their protags forced to pilot the mechs (initially).

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Even then, it's still not a valid justification.

*insert Spock's quote here*

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

On a side note, do we even know how much of humankind is still alive? All we've seen are the kids, the geezers, and military grunts. Is there any civilian population left?

Things don't really look promising.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

So now you dropped the "sexual exploitation"-angle and focus on "not having a choice"-exploitation?

No, I'm pretty sure I was focusing on both from the start.

There are many mecha stories where the protags don't really have a better choice other than piloting the mech

Generally they do have a choice. Take Evangelion for example. Every time Shinji refused to pilot the Eva the world was at risk of getting blown up yet no one ever forced him to do it. Most shows are like that because it's more interesting when the heroes decide to fight on their own accord.

Things doesn't really look promising.

That's what happen when you're led by a bunch of shady old geezers.

[Irenesharda]

Originally Posted by Gan_HOPE326

TBF, at this point Trigger almost has more NO fanservice shows than fanservice ones, despite their fame.

Fanservice-y Trigger shows:
* Kill la Kill
* Darling in the FranXX
* Some episodes of Ninja Slayer

Non fanservice-y Trigger shows:
* Kiznaiver
* Space Patrol Luluco
* Little Witch Academia (OVAs and series)
* Inferno Cop

Trigger shows no one gives a flying fuck about or remembers:
* When Supernatural Battles Become Commonplace

So yeah, it's 4 to 3. And Little Witch Academia alone was so wholesome you could show it to your 4 year old daughter without a hint of shame. In this case I'd say sexual symbolism is more a staple of the mecha genre. Evangelion aside, if you've seen more recent stuff like Valvrave, Star Driver or Captain Earth, you know the trend has gotten increasingly over the top and ridiculous. So this is just the natural culmination of that .

Hmm, I've seen Kill la Kill, one episode of Kiznaiver and one of Space Patrol Luluco. I didn't get into either of the two latter shows, and Kill la Kill took me years to complete (though when I finally did finish it, I really enjoyed the 2nd half more than the first).

I do watch a lot of mecha series, but I guess it never felt this overt before. I watch mostly Gundam which I watch mainly for its plot, battles, and at times character relationship, and that series doesn't often go into over the top sexual tones.

Valvrave I liked a lot until the very end, but I like that show so much for the over the top nature of simply it's desire to shock you and give you a twist at every turn, that it overrode the sexual stuff and honestly I think a lot of it was blown out of proportion by the fanbase.

Captain Earth bored me from start to finish. It always felt like it was trying to do something awesome and just kept failing. I didn't notice anything in that series either, but perhaps I was just so bored it was in the parts I just kept fast forwarding through.
I've never seen Star Driver.

I think the one mecha series that I've started and had such blatant sexual overtones that I couldn't finish the series was Cross Ange.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

No, I'm pretty sure I was focusing on both from the start.

And now your "sexual" (aka. doggy-seats) one doesn't really have ground in-universe.

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Generally they do have a choice. Take Evangelion for example. Every time Shinji refused to pilot the Eva the world was at risk of getting blown up yet no one ever forced him to do it. Most shows are like that because it's more interesting when the heroes decide to fight on their own accord.

Mobile Suit Gundam and its spiritual remake, Gundam SEED, have their protags (Amuro Ray & Kira Yamato) piloting the Gundams first time for their own survival as well as their friends. But shortly after that, they are forced and basically coerced into joining the Earth military to continue to pilot the Gundams to eliminate the enemies. In Kira's case, he was even forced at gunpoint. The Earth Federation/Alliance exploited the hell out of Kira and Amuro pretty much during the first half of the story. But their stories actually gets more and more interesting from that point as both Amuro & Kira gradually made their own choices after numerous heart-wrenching and enlightening experiences during the first half of the wars. Yes, character development is actually possible even if you initially make the MC a follower of the authority. At this point, Hiro's place is still the same as when Kira & Amuro are still following the military's orders. The difference being, Hiro is more initially fired-up to pilot the mechs.

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

That's what happen when you're led by a bunch of shady old geezers.

That's one factor, I guess.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

And now your "sexual" one doesn't really have ground in-universe.

It does. The Dr. himself said it's necessary for male and female to become one. I don't think he's talking literally but it's clear sexual compatibility is the key to get the best synchronization. They need the kids and their sexuality to make the robots work, and they're forcing all this shit on them.

At this point, Hiro's place is still the same as when Kira & Amuro is still following the military's orders. The difference being, Hiro is more initially fired-up to pilot the mechs.

I think what makes it different in this case is how they indoctrinate the kids to think piloting is what gives their lives meaning. It's some really twisted shit. It reminds me to how African miners were indoctrinated to believe they would get cursed if they took diamonds from the mines. They were poor and uneducated so they could be easily convinced of shit like that. It's the same with these kids. The adults exploit their ignorance to warp their sense of self worth in order to serve their own purpose. The kids end up believing the only way to get self-validation is by piloting.

Now that I think about it, this reminds me of Asuka. Only in her case her sense of self worth got screwed up by the circumstances she went through as a kid. The kids in this show are actively getting brainwashed.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

It does. The Dr. himself said it's necessary for male and female to become one. I don't think he's talking literally but it's clear sexual compatibility is the key to get the best synchronization. They need the kids and their sexuality to make the robots work, and they're forcing all this shit on them.

I was mainly talking about your "doggy-seats" complaint. And what you said above means that the higher-ups are basically still doing it for humanity's best interest, not due to some lewd/perverted sexual benefits. Do the higher ups have selfish goals in mind? Frankly, all politicians like them do, but at least their main goal in training the kids are somewhat justifiable. Those space-dinosaurs needs to be fought. If most of the adults can't do it but the kids can, sent the kids to war. Better that way than humanity's extinction.

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

I think what makes it different in this case is how they indoctrinate the kids to think piloting is what gives their lives meaning. It's some really twisted shit. It reminds me to how African miners were indoctrinated to believe they would get cursed if they took diamonds from the mines. They were poor and uneducated so they could be easily convinced of shit like that. It's the same with these kids. The adults exploit their ignorance to warp their sense of self worth in order to serve their own purpose. The kids end up believing the only way to get self-validation is by piloting.

Now that I think about it, this reminds me to Asuka. Only in her case her sense of self worth got screwed up by the circumstances she went through as a kid. The kids in this show are actively getting brainwashed.

I actually think the indoctrination aspect makes it more interesting. It will make the protags' realization and reaction about what the higher ups were doing all this time more juicy.

[orion]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

I was mainly talking about your "doggy-seats" complaint. And what you said above means that the higher-ups are basically still doing it for humanity's best interest, not due to some lewd/perverted sexual benefits. Do the higher ups have selfish goals in mind? Frankly, all politicians like them do, but at least their main goal in training the kids are somewhat justifiable. Those space-dinosaurs needs to be fought. If most of the adults can't do it but the kids can, sent the kids to war. Better that way than humanity's extinction.
.

But you need to keep some around for continuing the human population. We've only seen the professor and clones so far. Makes u wonder if there are non-cloned humans left when the settlements are called "plantations".

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

I was mainly talking about your "doggy-seats" complaint. An what you said above means that the higher-ups basically still doing it for humanity's best interest, not due to some lewd/perverted sexual benefits.

The doggy shit is part of it but it's obviously more than this. Also the higher-ups don't have to be some perverted bunch or anything like that. If I force a girl to have sex with other people for money (and I take the money) I'm definitely exploiting her sexuality even if I'm not doing anything lewd myself. They're doing the same thing with these kids. They don't have to literally have sex but their sexuality is key to get the robots working all the same. And it doesn't matter if this whole thing is for humanity's best interest. The kids are getting screwed either way.

If most of the adults can't do it but the kids can, sent the kids to war. Better that way than humanity's extinction.

That's easy to say if you're not one of the kids getting exploited.

I actually think the indoctrination aspect makes it more interesting.

I'm not saying it's not interesting. But the show cheapens the whole things by exploiting the characters outside the narrative as well. That what happens when you try to have your cake and eat it too.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

They doggy shit is part of it but it's obviously more than that. Also the higher-ups don't have to be some perverted bunch or anything like that. If I force a girl to have sex with other people for money (and I take the money) I'm definitely exploiting her sexuality even if I'm not doing anything lewd myself. They're doing the same thing with these kids. They don't have to literally have sex but their sexuality is key to get the robots working all the same. And it doesn't matter if this whole thing is for humanity's best interest. The kids are getting screwed either way.

I'm not saying it's not interesting. But the show cheapens the whole things by exploiting the characters outside the narrative as well.

The way the in-universe higher ups exploit the kids' sexuality is different from how the show does it. They're like exist in different wavelengths. For example, the higher ups do not stare at or focus on the girls' asses or boobs like the show did. The higher ups focus more on the psychological sexuality more than exploiting physical sexuality like the show does. To me, the latter doesn't ruin the former. The show's message and theme are still intact. Just like how Gundam shows' message of "war is hell" is not ruined by the cool and colorful robots and intense action (which is also a form of fanservice for mech-fans). Why? Because the characters are still miserable thanks to the war.

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

That's easy to say if you're not one of the kids getting exploited.

Nothing about this whole thing is easy, but desperate times need desperate measures. And it's the leader's job to make the difficult decisions. Even the idealist Emiya Shirou finally admitted that he can't save everybody when he became hero Emiya (before summoning).

Originally Posted by orion

But you need to keep some around for continuing the human population. We've only seen the professor and clones so far. Makes u wonder if there are non-cloned humans left when the settlements are called "plantations".

I think they keep some around. I doubt the sent all their kids to die in battles. That's like bad long-term plan .

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

The way the in-universe higher ups exploit the kids' sexuality is different from how the show does it. They're like exist in different wavelengths. For example, the higher ups do not stare at or focus on the girls' asses or boobs like the show did. The higher ups focus more on the psychological sexuality more than exploiting physical sexuality like the show does. To me, the latter doesn't ruin the former. The show's message and theme are still intact.

Take the moment when Ichigo was distressed and feeling sorry for herself for example. You're supposed to feel pity for her but it's kinda hard when the camera hovers on her ass or makes it seems like she just got a dicking. But yeah, I get it. You don't think this ruins the scene. Good for you, I guess.

Nothing about this whole thing is easy, but desperate times need desperate measures.

Again, that's easy to say when you're not the one getting exploited.