2008-11-26, 11:37 | Link #741 | |
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anw i think the hunter president is a male... |
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2008-11-26, 16:44 | Link #742 | |||||
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Ofcourse you have to take one step further to appreciate Kaname. When you look at Kaname the same way as you look at Zero, you perceive them differently. Because Kaname was born a pureblood vampire, hence his behavior and actions tend to reflect toward what he is. Quote:
Here you are comparing "dogs" with "vampires", declaring their specie as some bad monsterous leeches that feed on human's blood. Throwing Zero into his own ideal group, vampire hunters, will not serve him any good either. Perhaps, it was best to put him in a place where he is surrounded by vampires in order to overcome his prejudice against pureblood vampires. Of course if he had fully given himself as a hunter, he would be slaying vampires regardless of their nature by the request of H.A. Had Zero not been with Yuuki, who is a pureblood, he wouldn't have given a second thought to pull the trigger on Yuuki. May be, he has come to realize a little that not all vampires are bad afterall, though someone still needs to knock some sense really hard into his thick skull. Quote:
I also think you are confusing jealousy with angst. Kaname even said that he is jealous of Zero for being able to stay by her side. Given the circumstances, he had to forgo his girl for the sake of her protection. And you must be kidding yourself if you think Kaname literraly put himself into sleep for several ages. If that were really the case, Rido wouldn't have needed to give his blood to awaken him, let alone needing a new body to exhibit the soul (spaculation at this point). You don't think he chained himself after his slumber, and god knows why the crest was used. Quote:
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2008-11-26, 18:58 | Link #743 | |||||||
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A guy you don't know is standing in the street staring at the building for many hours. He does this each day and you don't know why. This is a mysterious character. You don't know what he is up to but that doesn't add any complexity to his true character. One day you go asked him you talk to him and find out why he does it. The guy is unemployed and has not better to do so each day he goes there to hang out. Mystery solved. Not a complex person at all. The reasoning behind mysterious persons actions are similar to that of a normal person the only difference is that you, the reader, are not privy to the information. The fact that you see Zero actions and thoughts way more than Kaname and still aren't able to grasp his character shows how complex he is. The complexity of a mysterious person is not infinite. It like saying a machine is infinitely complex because you haven't opened it. Until you open it you don't know. I appreciate Kaname character. I don't know where you got the idea that I didn't. As for the actions I dislike I could get specific but I won't as it would get long. I generally dislike when he manipulates people, which he has done on numerous occasions. That I understand that his manipulations are generally justified in his mind I don't like them. His actions actually contribute more to Zero hate and create a dangerous situation in the school with the unknowing day class. Quote:
I'll repeat again Zero is not suicidal! He was living for Yuki sake but that doesn't mean he was suicidal. He accepted his fate to fall to level E and die. Even now we nor he are sure if that fate is avoided or can ever be. I don't see a problem with him seeking revenge and dying in such a quest. Everyone dies sometime. Wow. You have some crazy logic. So just because at the time the that Zero stopping hurting himself Kaname also appeared means that Kaname was the one that influenced the change right? I think the solar eclipse the day had just as much to do with the change as that. I also think Kaname will come out smelling like a bed of roses at the end of the manga doesn't mean I have to believe the mangaka take on certain events. Quote:
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Exactly my point. To sympathize with a character you have to relate to that character on a emotional level. The fact that you don't prefer a character due you can sympathize with shows your focus is shallow. You only see the outside and unable to connect with the real person. Like I said 90 percent of Kaname appeal is only in his outward appearance and the fact he is "mysterious". By the way by sympathize I did not mean pity which is what you most likely misinterpreted my statement to mean.
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2008-11-27, 02:51 | Link #744 | |||||||||||||
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Perhaps, I grasp his character must better, and hence with Zero, he is "what you see is what you get". But, Let's just put the whole grasping business aside as it seems more personal rather than a tool, what could be used to determine the complexity of a person. Quote:
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Yeah, everyone dies at one point, then why not die after killing everyone? good logic. If you don't find any problem with Zero seeking revenge, then Shizuka shouldn't have been accused of having her revenge on the Kiryuu family either, since they were the ones who killed her lover. What is the difference between the woman who was called, insane, and Zero? revenge or suicide are not something to be encouraged in the society. Quote:
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There is not much to argue with you finally resorting to this. Even after Zero turned away from killing Yuuki, what is that it makes think he should've pulled the trigger? What do you hate about Yuuki that Zero isn't aware of? and wiping out all the purebloods? "If" doesn't answer the situation here. Zero was brought to the cross acadamy for a reason. There are those that believe in co-existance between vampires and humans (Kaname, Yuuki, Cross, Night class..etc), and then there are some that don't (Zero, The council, H.A..etc). You pick the side. Quote:
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What Kaname felt is jealously, not angst. In this case, they don't go hand in hand and be comparable with what Zero felt 99% of the time. You don't think Zero is not jealous of Kaname the same way? Then he must not be in love with Yuuki. You misinterpreted the meaning of Kaname's deep slumber. Vampires go torpor when the are morally wounded and don't have enough blood pool to keep them running, which leads to their prolonged sleep of many ages. However, this is not the end of their life as they are not fully destroyed. All they need is blood bath to be resurrected. Rido gave his blood to awake Kaname from his slumber, hence he became Kaname's master (Manga- blood on the crest). I didn't make this up, this is an ancient mythology. Kaname didn't put himself into sleep because he wanted to run away from his life. That doesn't make any sense what so ever. Quote:
His happiness is Yuuki, but his profession is establishing peace. They shouldn't be put at the same place. Quote:
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2008-11-27, 05:52 | Link #745 | |
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I guess the gender of the Hunter's Association president doesn't really matter anymore given the events of the recent chapter. ^^;; On a side note, I really can't wait to see a Kaname/Zero/Yuuki fight, I really hope we get to next chapter~ =D *goes back to college apps* |
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2008-11-27, 07:06 | Link #746 | |||||||||||||||
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2008-11-27, 08:21 | Link #747 | ||||
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2008-11-27, 17:10 | Link #748 | |||||||||||||||||
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@Carmolita
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By holding him back, Yuuki was able to save Zero from letting himself be controlled by his quest for revenge. Keep in mind that purebloods are not as easy to kill. In fact, Had Shizuka was serious about killing Zero, she would've done that without lifting a finger before even Zero loaded his bloody rose. Same goes for Rido who was basically playing around with Yuuki and never really put a fight. Purebloods don't act upon irrasional reasoning. Quote:
You have probably taught in high school that infinite means a number that goes on forever without limit. This is actually false premise of what it really means, and they just had to make it easier for high schoolers to comprehend. When you get into university though, you will come to use this term a lot, as there are numereous ideas and entities which go beyond our limited mind to explain it. Infinite was derived from the term "god", because he himself is infinite. Likewise, unless you get a sense what Kaname really is, his complexity cannot be determined. And as I mentioned before, mystery might be an aspect of complexity. Quote:
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Kaname on the other hand didn't literally use Zero as Shizuka did, but he knew that Zero will be thrown there, not by chance, but because of his hatred. See how his revenge gets played out here. Kaname predicted the happening of Shizuka getting shot by Zero, which stopped her ability to heal her wounds. This made it easier for Kaname to kill her without getting physical. I would blame Zero's vengeance if anything. As a matter of fact, Kaname left some of her blood for Zero as a cure for his transormation. He personally told the council to not to interfere with what is happening in the Cross Acadamy to save Zero from getting captured and executed. And he never blamed Zero for Shizuka's death either. Circumstances led Zero to be accused of her death, although Kaname could've revealed himself as the killer, but as a leader, he needed to keep it quite until the right time to confess it. He didn't have any problem with telling Zero that it was indeed him that killed Shizuka, as well as Cross who was aware of the whole thing kept it secret because it wasn't the right time. Why should Kaname be blamed for Shizuka's presense at the acadamy? Quote:
How could "natural" be considered "healthy" when cutting youself will only cause more physical pain? And something that is very common in our soceity doesn't tell us how natural/healthy the problem is. Cancer is also very common these days, but is it healthy? One in every twenty youngsters go through emotional pains, but they don't attempt to queer their life by the means of cutting themselves. Mental disorder doesn't mean he is mentally retarded, it is just an illness and has nothing to do with being sane and insane. Those that have cut themselves due to emotional pain would say that it is not normal. They would actually advice you to not to do it despite the temporary relief you get out of it. One has the capacity to cut themselves, but anxious of letting all out infront of others? Everyone has their ups and downs, but some takes it to the extreme level. How in the world am I looking down at people that cut themselves? who is the one encouraging such act here? I feel their pain, but cutting oneself is by no means something that I would agree with when there is better ways to deal with pain without having to put your life at risk. You need help if you believe that it is perfectly natural or "healthy". Quote:
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And revenge is part our society, regardless of the cause of increase in violense? and blood must be spilled to prevent even more spilling? that's like one of those idiotic governer saying, eveyone should be killed to stop the bleeing. (and plz no need to get political, as this would turn into political based debate) Quote:
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Is this some kind of paradox? you cannot understand one's pain unless you are in the same situation as him/her. You cannot imagine yourself as being one, it doesn't work that way. Quote:
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2008-11-27, 21:38 | Link #749 | ||||||||||||
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FYI- The fact that you haven't seen who is the older and more experienced of the two of us just plain amazes me. Infinite is not derived from god at all. While it is studied in theology, as with philosophy and math, the term did not originate from god. Are you saying that understanding Kaname actions are akin to understanding god? Are Kaname's actions are so complex, vast, and awe inspiring that the human mind cannot comprehend it? Wow I underestimated him. Quote:
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You live in a world of too many blacks and whites and never see outside the box. Society does accept it in some situations. I don't support the bible, so your reasoning on that point means nothing to me. Quote:
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2008-11-27, 22:20 | Link #750 |
Strangely dependable...
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: some random place out there...
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@freedomrulez: I know how you feel about some of the arguments others have posed against Kaname. I can't understand them myself - especially how many dislike Kaname because what he does looks manipulative. I've spent enough time arguing them and providing evidence to support Kaname's character but I'm glad to see your support and opinion as well. b
As for Zero, we all know Zero is a kind-hearted person - and maybe because he is too kind-hearted that he can't mentally handle the darkness which he has the misfortune of being thrown into. So his determination to blindly wipe out all purebloods regardless of who they are (friend or foe), shows his desperation to end his nightmare. If justification should be given for Zero to kill all purebloods because his family was murdered by a pureblood, then those vampires who have been hunted down by humans are also justified in their hatred of humans. Juuri probably has all the reasons to hate humans, who hunt her and her family down, but she does not. She doesn't seek out all humans to kill them but wants to find a way to live peacefully with them. Hence, Kaname's determination to create the blood pills that would help them avoid biting humans and further a possible co-existence. In order for peace to be possible, someone must drop their hatred and revenge (even though they know it is a loss for them) and reach out for peace. What Zero is doing is only fuelling further hatred between vampires and human. It is understandable that he has every right to hate them but it does not mean his actions are justified. Furthermore, he blindly blames everything on the purebloods but truth is that the humans (hunters) are equally guilty.
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Last edited by PreSage; 2008-11-27 at 22:38. |
2008-11-28, 01:13 | Link #751 | ||||||||||||
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@Presage
Thank you.^ ^I have gotten into a lot of arguments with VK fans in the past when VK forum was very active, though it pained me to see a lot of Kaname hatred, yet it was fun. Perhaps, it is because of the complexity of his character that he has fans just as many as anti-fans. Not to mention the fact that japan is crazy over Kaname. It is really frustrating sometimes to see how Kaname gets blamed for everything. Zero is definately a kind hearted person. But the way people go about accepting Zero's quest for revenge against all the purebloods as righteous is beyond me. Revenge is never an aswer to all the question he is looking for. And I whole heartedly agree with what you said. @Slick_lick Quote:
One might wonder who really started it all, the hunter's ancestors that ate a pureblood ancestor to aquire the ability to hunt down vampires, or the vampires themselves? This might explain the curse of hunters for the sin they had commited in the past. Humans are just as evil as vampires in thier own way ("..ill-intention intentioned people who desire purebloods blood for the miracle drug our blood represents"). Quote:
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You really don't have any clue as to what you are talking about. How did you come about comparing Kaname's complexity to that of a god? Like you mentioned before, humans mind can't comprehend what is inside the box, before opening to see what is inside. Quote:
You also claimed that it is healthy, but failed to make any sense out of it. Quote:
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Killing all the purebloods is not the end of all this, and certainly not what the writer is trying to accomplish. Your take on Zero completely overshadows the other side of the world, including the characters. Everyone was born with a purpose, and none is superior or inferior at that. Purebloods were not created to be "just enemies" of humans and waiting to be eliminated, in fact they have their own goals and ambitions in establishing their place on earth (VK). Zero's goal will not accomplish anything except for the extinction of purebloods. *Oh great, we have just temoved one of million possible threats to our society* Quote:
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Last edited by White Manju Bun; 2008-11-29 at 15:09. Reason: removed offtopic parts |
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2008-11-28, 05:14 | Link #752 | |||||||
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Our philosophies differ greatly so I won't continue to argue that as it would be a redundant argument. For me the ends are more than justified for the means. I would sacrifice the lives of others to save even more lives but even still I must take into account the risk and rewards of such a thing. I have no problem sacrificing innocent purebloods because they are a necessary casualty to achieve his goal. The student though at the school are an unnecessary casualty. The risk of their deaths could be avoided if Kaname and Cross had made proper plans before the end they knew was coming.
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2008-11-28, 17:36 | Link #753 | ||||||||
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Humans say: "let's kill every one of those bastards to prevent the "possible" cause of us turning into mindless monsters in the future" (Purebloods are only minor threat to human society, as only ill-intentioned people would go as far to bite humans. Besides, other purebloods are doing fine job at restraining themselves from drinking humans blood while enduring the pain of not getting thier valued "meal ") Purebloods say: "As minority as we are, there is a risk of our specie getting extinct" (Extinction is a huge threat, and if the natural selection & evolution, fight for survial, were to take place, undoubtedly purebloods will survive simply because strong survives if all the purebloods join forces together).But of course, this is not what the purebloods want in spite of having the power to seize humans and vampires into an army just as easily. Truth be told, humans even poison themselves from drinking the blood of purebloods (For instance, the leader of Vampire hunter association). Their job is to slay vampires as ordered from The Council, and get pureblood in exchange. So, going by your definition of sacrificing lives to save more, why not first wipe out the evil in us before actually taking any action against other threats? The only thing that should come to your mind is peace. Should we vow to kill all of who we consider, threats, as the only possible way to create a so called perfect utopia, none will survive, not even us. We will become our own pray. Why do you insist on blaming Kaname (and Cross) for every possible actions? Chaos at the Cross Acadamy was created by the Council and the attack from Rido. Night class, gathered by the request of Kaname, was doing their job to protect day class students from getting hurt in the process. Kaname was out to kill The Council that sent vampires to kill the Night class students. Cross was dealing with his people from Hunters Association to prevent any more corrupt. Not to mentioned that they interfered with Kaien from clearing out the day class confusion (Once again, we ultimately became our own best enemy). And they are accused of not making plan accordingly? speaking of which, why should Kaname, a pureblood that is on your "must get wiped out" list, even be helping them out in the first place? Something to think about. Quote:
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("It is not a mental disorder in anyway" , "You mistake "natural" for healthy") As the article was saying, it is related to mental illness, and it is not natural. Just put it aside, because you are only making ass out of youself with your contradictory speach. Quote:
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2008-11-29, 08:20 | Link #754 | ||||
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"Kaname is one of the prime example of a portrayal of a mysterious person. Kaname is not as complex as Zero? explain. When a character is shrouded in mystery and unfathomable, his complexity is infinite." I'd like to point out I never said Kaname was not as complex as Zero. I said "Kaname is more of a mystery, but mysterious doesn't equal complex. Once the mystery is broken I doubt he'll be anywhere as complex as Zero who has a torrid of emotions towards many issues." Now the way you use infinite in your original sentence tries to confuse the reader by using a double entendre. The meaning you say it is as "god knows" or "unknown". It can also be taken as being endless and boundless. You trying to imply both meaning at the same time though. If we replace infinite in the sentence with unknown then it becomes "Kaname complexity is unknown". Now if we compare Zero and his complexity we would be unable to determine who is more complex. If we replace infinite with endless, "Kaname complexity is endless". Now if we compare Zero and his complexity we can see that Kaname's compexity would be more than Zero's known complexity. It's also clear why I believed you were going for "endless" because before you said his complexity was unfathomable which would more go with the endless take than the unknown. You were trying to imply both the strict definition and loose definition at the same time. A better wording would have been if you said his complexity is unknown or ambiguous. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/infinite Also you can see that your use of infinite is off also. A mysterious person's complexity would be immeasurable not immeasurably great because you would have no basis to say whether the complexity was great or small to begin with. I also used a double entendre to mock you hopefully you can find it. Quote:
You logic was flawed because you relied solely on what he told you and tried to make that the basis for the validity of your argument. He might be correct but I have found no evidence to support it and have found evidence contrary to your claim. Now I could show what I have found but at least try to prove your statement with actual facts instead of my "math teacher told me". Quote:
And no cutting yourself is not a mental disorder in anyway. It is sometimes associated with mental illness..or mental traits such as low self-esteem or perfectionism"? Yes, sometimes being the keyword. It is a symptom of possibly having a mental disorder but that is not the same thing as it being a mental disorder. You have to make that distinction. Headaches are a symptoms of some mental disorders but that doesn't mean headaches are a mental disorder. Quote:
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Last edited by Slick_rick; 2008-11-29 at 08:28. Reason: pointing out my double entendre use or else it would go unnoticed otherwise |
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2008-11-29, 14:23 | Link #755 | ||||
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I have already explained it before that I meant "god knows" (meaning have no idea or uknown). But, you insisted on believing that infinite only means endless/uncountable. And if you want me to provide "fact" from internet resources (although not all meanings are based on facts ), http://www.yourdictionary.com/infinite "boundlessness, infinity, the unknown" "untold" And I don't recall saying that Kaname's "complexity" is unfathomable. I said his character is unfathomable (Difficult to understand). Thus, you are at your fault for misunderstanding my statement and assuming that I meant endless. Let's examine your remark: "Kaname is more of a mystery, but mysterious doesn't equal complex. Once the mystery is broken I doubt he'll be anywhere as complex as Zero who has a torrid of emotions towards many issues." - 1st input "Mystery does not equal complexity and the fact that a mystery is not solved does not mean that it was in anyway complex." - 2nd input First of all, going by your definition, Kaname's mysterious nature should not have any affect on his complexity (1st input) as mystery doesn't equal complexity (your opinion). You claimed that Kaname's complexity will not be anywhere as complex as Zero once his mystery is broken. Again a lot of contradiction, and you second input is more or less the same, but you just disproved your first statement. However, I kind of picked it up and said "mystery might be an aspect of complexity", and hence they might have affect on each other. Having said that, we can't tell how complex Kaname is (whether he is more or less complex than Zero) unless we get a sense who he is. This is what I was implying in my ogirinal statement as a counterattack to your comment. This topic shouldn't have been dragged on this long. Quote:
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2008-11-29, 15:06 | Link #756 |
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Ok Mod Post time.
I can see we're having a "nice" little conversation concerning Kaname and Zero. Please remember this is the manga thread, what is going on here might be better applied in the invdividual character threads. Also I have removed alot of the off topicness of that thread espc concerning self-injury. This is not something that should be discussed and links about it should not be posted, it has nothing to do with the manga. If you wish to keep discussing it do it in a civil way via pm if necessary. Also what the language, you can post, convery your point without resulting in name calling. Failure to adbide by the rules will result in a warning.
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2008-11-30, 09:38 | Link #757 |
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Actually I have a question that's been bothering me?
In the manga was it implied that Kaname is actually some ancestor of the Kuran family, if so where? What's his actual relation to Yuuki? Maybe I was flying through the 45 chapter so I prob didn't notice it. XD Thanks in advance |
2008-11-30, 12:03 | Link #758 | |
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Read Ch 38 , Page 27 and ... about his relation to Yuuki , tell now we don't know what he is .. but since he's from the kuran Family I think he's just like Grandfather he's back to life inside Yuuki's brother body and that after Rido killed him , he Put Kaname Soul inside the body I think it's just like that .____. |
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2008-11-30, 22:23 | Link #759 |
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LOOOOL at the imagery.
I still have reservation about that. I can't remember for the life of me where in the manga that it explicitly says this. But that may be just me being an idiot skeptic.
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2008-11-30, 22:29 | Link #760 |
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That's because it doesn't say it anywhere in the manga~ directly that is. It is implied in the flashback from 10 years ago. You have to pay close attention to what everyone is saying..
I rufuse to take the kaname is a grandfather stance, because that part of his past has not yet been revealed~we'll know more tomorrow.. Last edited by carmolita; 2008-11-30 at 23:42. |
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