Madoka Magica - Episode 09 Discussion / Poll

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by MaiNoKen

Often humans are confronted with similar decisions - a logical one vs. an emotional one. Sometimes it makes you wonder what Truman is thinking when he ordered to use of nuclear weapons (atomic bomb) in WWII. Things can be even like that in office politics where one chooses to deceive and ruin another person for a pay off that benefits your family (better pay, better career security).

In the end, the one who takes the ruthless and logical steps are more likely to survive. It does not mean I do not believe good people do not exist. However, good people are not immune to situations that one is confronted with choices that every choice is "evil". In that case, the good person will probably take the choice that he/she thinks will do the least evil...

What is the "ruthless and logical" step for Humanity, by your own argument?

Since QB is literally threatening the continued existence of humanity (by harming our children), then the ruthless and logical step for us is to kill them all, and hunt them down.

It cuts both ways. Just because QB thinks it is okay to kill us, doesn't mean we should go down on our knees and surrender.


Or are you saying somehow it is okay for QB to be ruthless, but not okay for us to be ruthless in return? That somehow humans don't have the right to fight for what we want?

The ones who takes the ruthless and logical steps are more likely to survive.

Indeed. And now, QB will find out how ruthless humanity can be. We will see who goes extinct first.

[MaiNoKen]

Or are you saying somehow it is okay for QB to be ruthless, but not okay for us to be ruthless in return? That somehow humans don't have the right to fight for what we want?

Of course, it is fair to be ruthless and logical in return if survival is at stakes. Isn't it immoral as well to lay down and wait to die? It just happens that apply all sides in a conflict.

The trick is not to get one into a hole that every choice sucks , and that itself requires wisdom and shrewdness. But sometimes no matter how much one tries to prevent to get in such hole, it is often simply unavoidable or completely out of one hands.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by MaiNoKen

Of course, it is fair to be ruthless in return if survival is at stakes. Isn't it immoral as well to lay down and wait to die?

But that's why I was arguing with you; you were trying to suggest we humans have no right to object to QB's actions.

If we have no right to object to the slaughter of our children, it means to lay down and wait to die. That's what you are claiming.

That's why we called him evil; because we as a species object to his actions.

[MaiNoKen]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

That's why we called him evil; because we as a species object to his actions.

What is evil and good depends on which side you are on. That has always been the case in history . Sometimes even the division between "sides" and "factions" is not even that clear.

This discussion suddenly reminds me much of Catch-22...

[hyperborealis]

Originally Posted by Solace

Not telling them that their soul will be taken from their bodies, put into an object that collects energy and keeps their now lifeless body preserved as they use their powers, that if they do not remove this energy it will turn them into a monster, that the process of removing that energy requires transferring it into the object of the monsters that were once human girls, and that when they do become monsters themselves their energy release is harvested by Kyubey for questionable reasons is somehow absolving him of being responsible for their decision?

They willingly made a contract with someone who did not tell them the fine print, sure. But he KNEW they wouldn't agree if they knew the true price. Would Sayaka have made the same wish and contracted if she knew then what she knows now? Kyoko? How about Mami? Homura? Madoka?

None of them would. Removing QB from the equation changes everything.

Actually, I think it's an open question the girls would not have made the contract if they knew everything we know now. People are willing to sacrifice an awful lot for things crucial to them. The possibility that Madoka will make the contract anyway is still out there.

Also, the girls know from the outset that they risk their lives fighting witches. All the grotesque details are secondary to that fact.

Given that Homura knows everything we know, and yet has not told any of the girls, why do you think of QB as morally culpable, and Homura not?

[Malkuth]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

In short, if he wants the souls of our children, he would have to take them from our cold dead fingers.

Wow, that sounds exactly like what the vocal majority assumes to be QB's reasoning

[anyme]

The magical girls hunt the witches.
Witches = good side.
Magical girls = evil side. By QB's license agreement.

[Mentar]

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

Errm...what are you guys talking about? What script change? Star Driver is by Bones is it not? While this is by SHAFT....

Shinbo said that there had been some last-minute adjustments to the script of ep9. And there have been developments in the last ep of Star Driver which sound like a carbon copy of QB's crazy explanation to Madoka, about aliens worrying about the universe's entropy and whatnot.

The probability of this being a mere coincidence is incredibly small. Therefore, it's most likely that Urobuchi Gen and the Star Driver scriptwriters have been talking, and Urobuchi made the decision to make a small joke on the viewers' expense, particularly the "take everything QB says for true" crowd.

(Because the explanation never really fit in the Madoka story, but is spot-on for Star Driver, this is almost certainly the change in the script Shinbo talked about. Instead of stalling as usual, QB simply let loose a big barrage of BS )

[totoum]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Since QB is literally threatening the continued existence of humanity (by harming our children)

You're free to say QB is saying bullshit but his argument is that a few teenage girls here and there out of 6.9 billion people isn't going to put humanity in any danger and that by stopping entropy he's saving humanity (as well as the universe).

[Candyshark]

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

Where exactly did she suicide out of depression or giving up? She wanted to accompany Sayaka that was all...I mean if she were really a defeatist, she could have just thrown down her spear and stood there but she didn't.

Kyoko was the only one who showed more fighting and aggressive spirit. She accepted the death of her family and swallowed hard truth behind soul gems. Kyoko knew dire times are comming and I hoped her stand by Homura's side. In my eyes she lost her fighting spirit and gave in.

[guuchan]

Originally Posted by hyperborealis

Actually, I think it's an open question the girls would not have made the contract if they knew everything we know now. People are willing to sacrifice an awful lot for things crucial to them. The possibility that Madoka will make the contract anyway is still out there.

Also, the girls know from the outset that they risk their lives fighting witches. All the grotesque details are secondary to that fact.

Given that Homura knows everything we know, and yet has not told any of the girls, why do you think of QB as morally culpable, and Homura not?

While I agree with mostly what you said, allow me to fix one sentence:

The certainty that Madoka will make the contract anyway is still out there.

I just sincerely hope that she won't end up becoming a MG without the need of making a contract, specifically with Kyuubee. As I have mentioned to certain someone, it will just be too good for Madoka if she doesn't need to hand out her soul for it.

[hyperborealis]

Originally Posted by Slick_rick

I can't see how this show is trying to portray these aliens values in anyway other than in a bad light. We aren't shown all the things saved or gain by QB efforts but the main focus has been on the suffering and tragedy pushed upon these girls. The vast majority of people are, imo, rightfully disgusted by QB and I think that's intended. While the show is very tragic at times I think its not at all cynical about idealism. Kyoko dropped her cynicism, for the most part, and in the end went out in heroic fashion.

I think the show is trying to be more about overcoming naivete about certain things. What Kyouko said to Madoka in this episode I think more lies at the heart of what the show is trying to portray. She told Madoka she shouldn't put her life on the line unless she has to. I think that's fairly good advice. Madoka believed that by becoming a MG she wouldn't be a coward anymore since she was protected by people before and felt she couldn't do anything. I think the show is trying to say that you don't have to go throw herself in dangerous situations to prove your aren't a coward and also it isn't such a bad thing to be just a normal girl/person. I think whether being a MG is such an enviable thing is much more at the center of the deconstruction.

Really excellent assessment of the show's point of view. Your point about Kyoko dropping her cynicism is spot on. Homura does the same thing--she tells Madoka to forget about Sayaka, but later rescues her soul gem and regrets not having intervened to prevent her from making the contract. I really like your idea that the show may be trying to get the viewer to appreciate normalcy--a lot of the dynamic between Homura and Madoka has this point as its subtext.

That may be the point of the deconstruction of the Magical Girl genre: to lead the viewers to value ordinary life. But I wonder--suffering and tragedy are also quite ordinary. To live a life without that--that is even more fantastic than to become a magical girl. And for those who do, theirs is a life of privilege paid for by other people, exactly as QB proposes for other people to die so that he can live. How do we live in a world which includes suffering and tragedy? Perhaps that is what Madoka Magica is really about.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by totoum

You're free to say QB is saying bullshit but his argument is that a few teenage girls here and there out of 6.9 billion people isn't going to put humanity in any danger and that by stopping entropy he's saving humanity (as well as the universe).

To be honest, his line dangerously made him sound like Stalin.

[Jimmy C]

Originally Posted by Mentar

Therefore, it's most likely that Urobuchi Gen and the Star Driver scriptwriters have been talking, and Urobuchi made the decision to make a small joke on the viewers' expense,

I suspect that the alterations (assuming there really were any) were made to make things more different from the Star Driver episode. Gen and co. probably tried to make Kyubei's motive as distinct as possible without changing too much. You don't change something important like one faction's motives this late in a series. Evidently, they didn't not entirely succeed. One wonders how they found out what another studio was doing with a currently in production show.

[hyperborealis]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

It doesn't matter what QB thinks is important, because as soon as they got humans involved, human values automatically enters the equation.

I don't care if QB's people slaughter each other back in their homeland; that's their own decision. But if they want to get humans involved, then human values will get mixed in.

Segregation of cultures only work when they are separated. When QB waltz into our world and tell us to get our children killed, he would have to face the consequences.

In short, if he wants the souls of our children, he would have to take them from our cold dead fingers.

Sure, QB's scum. But what he does is all too human. Getting other people to pay for our own privileges is something people do all the time. I mean, you may be wearing a shirt made by some child slave in some sweatshop on another continent. And in some contexts, giving up your life to save others is considered heroic--we hand out medals, rename buildings in heroes' honor, etc.

You know what's scary? If it really came down to it, if the universe really required the death of magical girls so that human life could go on, human culture would...adjust. QB is a mirror, and you're looking at it.

[totoum]

Originally Posted by Jimmy C

You don't change something important like one faction's motives this late in a series.

You seemed to have missed mentar's point,if the motives QB presented in this episode are a complete lie then you can change them to whichever lie you want without affecting the plot much since the real motive stays the same.

[Jimmy C]

I'm working on the assumption people like to be lazy. In other words, changing Kyubei's reveal to be a completely different lie might be more work than they'd like. Even if it is a lie, it'll still have consequences in the following episodes. All of those will have to be revised if the lie is completely changed. I'm guessing they tried to change as much as they could that wouldn't impact the remaining episodes.

[guuchan]

By the way, something Kyuubee said bothered me quite a lot when I was watching the episode. I decided not to take the things said seriously anymore after the episode so I didn't really think over it, but no one here has mentioned it so far so I think I might as well bring it up.

During his conversation with Madoka in her room, he mentioned this:

"You, mankind, will likely leave this planet one day and join us."

Erm, what? Leave as literally leave or die away? "Joining us" as joining Kyuubee's kind and become aliens or he's talking about afterlife? It seems to be the former because of what he said right aftewards, but I don't get why he would use the term "nakamairi", sounding like mankind would become one of their kind (just because of leaving the earth?).

[Triple_R]

One thing I'll say here:

For a sufficiently advanced alien race, that lacks emotions, and with a very long cosmological view towards their lives and the universe at large, I can understand them viewing entropy as the biggest problem in the universe which all of their efforts need to be put towards solving. I get that.

So this may apply to Kyubey and his people. And depending upon the exact nature of Kyubey and his people (other posters mentioned a "hive mind" possibility), then I can certainly see them thinking that just one tiny cog in the greater collective is worth sacrificing if it'll help resolve the biggest problem facing the collective as a whole. And they, as an alien race with is own understanding of itself, its universe, and its place in it, have every right to that thinking.

But they don't have a right to apply that thinking to us, without us consenting to it, and without us having full knowledge of what exactly they're doing, and why they're doing it. Because just as we should respect their unique alien existence and how they may function and think a lot differently than we do, they should show us the same respect in turn. And they're not. They're clearly not.

And that's a big part of the reason why humans need to oppose them here. If we're going to have any dealings with Kyubey and his people, they need to be on a more even playing field than this.

[hyperborealis]

Originally Posted by Mentar

Spoiler for If you're following Star Driver and haven't watched the last ep, stay away:

Again, you guys are chasing a red herring. QB is no alien. The "Entropy People" are from Star Driver, and this is almost certainly the late script change Shinbo was mentioning.

QB is a demon, and he's after the souls of the MGs. Like he was all the time. And with the impending Walpurgisnacht, he's now confident that he'll be able to force Madoka into the long-coveted contract.

How does QB the demon collecting souls make more sense than QB the anti-Entropy alien collecting fuel for the universal gas tank?

It doesn't make more sense in the narrative context: witches exist in a distinct space, but that's not necessarily the same space inhabited by youkai, demons, etc. Although we are in a magical girl show, we don't know yet if there is a spiritual world inhabited by demons with designs upon human souls.

The two options are equivalent if considered from QB's perspective, depending on how that is ultimately specified--he gets what he wants, and the girls pay for it.

As far as fitting in with the magical girl genre, both possibilities fit. The "Save the universe from entropy" appeal speaks to the magical girl's tendency for noble self-sacrifice. Evil demons are a staple of mahou shoujo series.

All in all, I would discount demons just since Madoka Magica is so set on dynamiting genre expectations.

That aside, what's the difference? Just asking!