Game of Thrones

[Jagger]

The bad CGI of Dany riding the dragon kind of ruined that scene for me.

[TheForsaken]

Originally Posted by SPARTAN 119

In my opinion, I think, of the cast interviewed , Nikolaj Coster-Waldau (the guy who plays Jaime Lannister if you didn't know) had the best idea: dissolve the monarchy (or, IMO, at least strip them of absolute power), because that it just isn't working for this world. In the unlikely event they go that route, Tyrion Lannister for Prime Minister!

I love how modern people think that just stamping democracy on anything and it will work.
No it won't
You can't strip the absolute power from the monarchs of Westeros, because they never have it in the first place. Westeros is strictly feudalism. There are only lords and peasants, the middle class is nonexistent. How can you have democracy with that? If you want Tyrion to be in charge, just name him king. That will be better for everyone.

[Maxulous]

Originally Posted by Jagger

The bad CGI of Dany riding the dragon kind of ruined that scene for me.

After Jorah spears the assassin the scene deteriorates for me. The dragon panic plays out more naturally in the book.

[SPARTAN 119]

Originally Posted by TheForsaken

I love how modern people think that just stamping democracy on anything and it will work.
No it won't
You can't strip the absolute power from the monarchs of Westeros, because they never have it in the first place. Westeros is strictly feudalism. There are only lords and peasants, the middle class is nonexistent. How can you have democracy with that? If you want Tyrion to be in charge, just name him king. That will be better for everyone.

I was not being serious about that, if the other comment about the War of the Five kings ending with the final duel between Hot Pie and Hodor didn't make that completely obvious.

[rantaid]

well i have suspicions which is why i am reluctant to reply.

serious answer though, the so called common people seems to be still adapting to slave mentality for them to be ready to embrace greek democracy. and it is not a good sign to establish democracy when people still rely on superstition of choosen one with distinguished family name, riding dragon and using magic to build their empire on. that would only made their rule to be more corrupt than traditional monarch and feudal noble lord as land owner surrounding them.

Joffrey suggestion of that military should only be in hand of king is actually correct, rather than allowing feudal land owning lords to own their own armies. i quite impressed.

[TheForsaken]

Yes, fortifying the central power is the correct direction. However, it needs careful planning to carry out, which I doubt Joffrey had. And that suggestion comes from his "I AM THE KING!" mindset, not from any desire to reform the kingdom for the better so IMO it's just another recipe for disaster.

[SPARTAN 119]

Originally Posted by rantaid

well i have suspicions which is why i am reluctant to reply.

serious answer though, the so called common people seems to be still adapting to slave mentality for them to be ready to embrace greek democracy. and it is not a good sign to establish democracy when people still rely on superstition of choosen one with distinguished family name, riding dragon and using magic to build their empire on. that would only made their rule to be more corrupt than traditional monarch and feudal noble lord as land owner surrounding them.

Joffrey suggestion of that military should only be in hand of king is actually correct, rather than allowing feudal land owning lords to own their own armies. i quite impressed.

Yeah, if that had actually happened, that would have been headed towards a more "absolutist" system, which actually preceded the Enlightenment.

Also, I suspect if Westeros were to move towards a modern society, it would have to first go through the usual steps, including a decline in feudal power, a consolidation of royal power, and a subsequent rise of a middle class, either gradually through the rise of a trade guilds and through the loss of a large portion of the population allowing social mobility (i.e. bubonic plague)- in real life it was really a combination of the two. It would also help if somebody broke the trope of "fantasy gun control" to somewhat even up the odds against dragons- yes, gunpowder stores would be vulnerable to dragon fire, but on the same note, the Dornish killed one of the Targaryen dragons with a ballista during Aegon's failed conquest. Cannon- particularly light swivel guns loaded with grapeshot and designed to be aimed upwards- essentially crude AA guns or even massed volleys of musket fire would likely be able to do the same.

Overall, realistically speaking I suspect if the Westerossi revolution is at least a few hundred years off, until they reach a roughly 18th century level of society and technology. Of course, if magic become too powerful with the return of dragons, its possible that everything might stagnate. On the other hand, if dragons suffer from the same rules with regards to populations, a population of three is not enough genetic diversity for a species to survive in the long run. On the other hand, there may be other dragon eggs lying around somewhere, they do tend to have a long shelf life...

However, if they get through all this, the decadal winters would produce sufficient amounts of popular unrest to cause people to turn against their rulers, especially considering what a very cold real-world winter had done in the past.

[rantaid]

@TheForsaken.

actually Joffrey mentality of saying; "I am the King." is not really wrong or even perceived to be sign of arrogance. what he lacked off is experience, skills and mentality. experience is what tywin had, skills is tyrion and mentality is what unfortunately margaery had but he met and found her too late.

there is a real life monarch who had that mentality, even going as far to declare ; " L'Etat, c'est moi!" and he was seen as quite a frightening capable monarch in history. Louis XIV of France.

so it is very understandable for him to have that kind of pride and what is his mistake is temper which he should have gained from experience like Tywin; his grandfather.

@SPARTAN 119
i just don't get what would the dragon symbolize except as a myth widely accepted by the people as the moment when savior arrive like in the past with Aegon who started the Targaeyen dynasty. people always love this kind of repetition of heroic story to make them instigated. like how the war of rose has fuelled people who get tired of bloody struggle and when Henry Tudor decided to combine the two feuding family.

[SPARTAN 119]

I meant that, for all of Martin's references to real-life history, if Dany's dragons survive to the end of this and have some kids, the impact of dragons on the battlefield could change the history of this world to become very different from our own. Also, it is implied that the return of dragons somehow is causing the magic in the world of Game of Thrones to come back, which could, again, cause a drastic change on how society and technology advances.

In any case, I hope this mass speculation didn't go too far off track.

[Slayerx]

Originally Posted by rantaid

Joffrey suggestion of that military should only be in hand of king is actually correct, rather than allowing feudal land owning lords to own their own armies. i quite impressed.

Except as Cersei pointed out, such centralization of the military would not actually work in westeros. The centeralized military would still have to be made up of soldiers from across westeroes and those soldiers would still place their loyalty in their local lords first and the king second. Soliders from the north would never fight against nobles from the north. If The king ever tried to use his military against the other noble lords or did anything to seriously offend them (like chopping off the head of one), its very likely that those soldiers loyal to that lord would simply rebel against the king. And when those soldiers rebel, other nobles will call on the soliders from their lands to rebel aswell since they most likely want an excuse to end such centralized power in the king... Really we see this all the time with rebellions and civil war; when the government uses the military against its own citizens there are bound to be many who will desert and join the citizens.

The nobles would not allow the king to amass so much power for himself. If the king tried to disarm them, they would rebel and king's landing would not be able to withstand the strength of all of the other nobles houses and their forces... and as mentioned above, even if he did somehow manage to centralize the military, it would only last as long as the nobles remained pleased. the nobles would be quick to dismantle such a military at the earliest chance. In the end, trying to centralize power would be seen as a HUGE power grab by the king and would likely incite rebellion. Joffry was nothing more than a fool

Originally Posted by TheForsaken

I love how modern people think that just stamping democracy on anything and it will work.
No it won't
You can't strip the absolute power from the monarchs of Westeros, because they never have it in the first place. Westeros is strictly feudalism. There are only lords and peasants, the middle class is nonexistent. How can you have democracy with that? If you want Tyrion to be in charge, just name him king. That will be better for everyone.

Well they would not need to take up a strictly "by the poeple" Style democratic system. For instance they could move to a system that is similar to what the romans had, which had some elements of democracy, but not all. For instance, The Romans had some offices elected by the people but the senate was instead made up of members of the wealthy families. Westeroes could create a senate that would be composed of members from the noble houses. The senate would democratically craft laws and hold similar responsibilities while The king would be granted limited overarching powers like a veto power to overrule simple majority decisions. The king may even have the power to make laws himself, but that would be checked by the senate

AS for the king himself... they could make him more of a constitutional monarch and thus limit his powers. The monarchy would remain but not only would their be strict rules regarding succession, but even legal ways to challenge an individual king's right to rule; such challenges would rely on the senate and magistrates. Alternatively, They could dissolve the monarchy entirely and have the senate to elect leaders for limited terms.

This would not give power to the people, but it might help stabilize the kingdom. By giving more real power and influence to the nobles they may be more likely to fight with politics and less likely to raise up their swords... Whether or not the people themselves are given representation really depends on how well that system works out. If Peasant uprisings become a common problem, then they should have elected representatives to represent the poor.

[Jagger]

Originally Posted by Slayerx

Except as Cersei pointed out, such centralization of the military would not actually work in westeros. The centeralized military would still have to be made up of soldiers from across westeroes and those soldiers would still place their loyalty in their local lords first and the king second. Soliders from the north would never fight against nobles from the north. If The king ever tried to use his military against the other noble lords or did anything to seriously offend them (like chopping off the head of one), its very likely that those soldiers loyal to that lord would simply rebel against the king. And when those soldiers rebel, other nobles will call on the soliders from their lands to rebel aswell since they most likely want an excuse to end such centralized power in the king... Really we see this all the time with rebellions and civil war; when the government uses the military against its own citizens there are bound to be many who will desert and join the citizens.

The nobles would not allow the king to amass so much power for himself. If the king tried to disarm them, they would rebel and king's landing would not be able to withstand the strength of all of the other nobles houses and their forces... and as mentioned above, even if he did somehow manage to centralize the military, it would only last as long as the nobles remained pleased. the nobles would be quick to dismantle such a military at the earliest chance. In the end, trying to centralize power would be seen as a HUGE power grab by the king and would likely incite rebellion. Joffry was nothing more than a fool

Not really. A similar situation happened in medieval England. Power was fragmented until William the Conqueror crushed the armies of the noble families at the battle of Hastings and took the crown. He gave pieces of land to the lords that had helped him in battle but made sure that they were scattered all over England so that it would be difficult for them to join together to rally against him. He kept a large part of the lands for himself but made sure it was in an easily defensible position. He also ordered that vassals pledge allegiance to him directly, instead of pledging to their local lord. He also assigned sheriffs to administer and apply his will to the various shires. William's successors continued to reinforce the royal power by replacing hereditary tenure holders by civil servants.

Dany or whoever could conquer Westeros and easily do something similar in order to centralize power.

People usually credit the Greeks for inventing democracy but it was actually in England that the closest form to modern democracy appeared. Roughly 150 years after William's conquest is when common law, the Magna Carta and the Parliament were institutionalized in England. This provided the building blocks for modern democracy.

So if Dany (or whoever) were to follow this path, it could definitely lead to democracy in westeros if the successor in charge at the time was willing to let it happen.

[MrTerrorist]

Originally Posted by Slayerx

Except as Cersei pointed out, such centralization of the military would not actually work in westeros. The centeralized military would still have to be made up of soldiers from across westeroes and those soldiers would still place their loyalty in their local lords first and the king second. Soliders from the north would never fight against nobles from the north. If The king ever tried to use his military against the other noble lords or did anything to seriously offend them (like chopping off the head of one), its very likely that those soldiers loyal to that lord would simply rebel against the king. And when those soldiers rebel, other nobles will call on the soliders from their lands to rebel aswell since they most likely want an excuse to end such centralized power in the king... Really we see this all the time with rebellions and civil war; when the government uses the military against its own citizens there are bound to be many who will desert and join the citizens.

The nobles would not allow the king to amass so much power for himself. If the king tried to disarm them, they would rebel and king's landing would not be able to withstand the strength of all of the other nobles houses and their forces... and as mentioned above, even if he did somehow manage to centralize the military, it would only last as long as the nobles remained pleased. the nobles would be quick to dismantle such a military at the earliest chance. In the end, trying to centralize power would be seen as a HUGE power grab by the king and would likely incite rebellion. Joffry was nothing more than a fool

I remember that episode well. Joffrey idea of having a nationalized army loyal to the kingdoms is smart and modern idea but his idea of using Northerners in the new army to overthrow the Starks and appoint his relative as the new ruler in the North is not.

[rantaid]

@SPARTAN 119

i think it will signify the decline in human civilization. dragon is magic and magic symbolize a power yet to be understood by common men and their lack of power to control them. in course of history, men only prosper and progress when they understand and control the wisdom of science without any restriction on learning them.

magic like any other superstition and myth has too many taboo that restrict the learning of it. even in Harry Potter's world they are not allowed to master the Dark Arts just because some jerks use them to conquer and rule the world.

@Slayersx

Jamie also pointed out about wars for Cersei' c*nt but enough about the joke.
indeed as Jagger pointed out, centralization of authority is not impossible. he draw comparisson with past england with Magna Charta (though i had to admit i am no good in European history), only know about Henry VIII is fat.

But as Ser Jorah Mormont allude, ' The common people does not care about the games the noble and upper house played, they only pray for plentiful rain and sunny.' this already spoke about what common people are thinking. they only care of filling their stomach being well fed and clothed. they does not care who rules atop them as long as they could living aplenty. so even when centralization were decided and limitation of nobles right (from taking levies from their fief, local law and such), the first who react shall be noble and the people who support the noble. common people were either forced into conscript or because they need food. the moment a strong monarch appear and make rules, it would not be trouble, because even in feudalism rebellion occurs. if you don't get it i mean a true Ruler like Qin Shihuang.

@Mr.Terrorist

actually it just happened. did not now the rule of north falls into the house of Bolton, the Stark former allies? i think joffrey make mistake in voicing them but the concept is not faulty. (he does not express it well although the idea is not wrong)

in this is the "Two Tiger Stratagem" to let the Stark and his allies fight each other weakening themselves. The Iron throne only act as instigator who reapt the gain from both of their bloodshed from their weakening authority. Cersei always want someone to be not as clever as herself. that is why she antagonize Tyrion, Tywin (well the incest do hurt her father),Margaery Tyrell, Ollena Tyrell, Stannis Baratheon, Ned Stark, and even belittle Joffrey when he do make sense (except the execution of lord Eddard stark. in my opinion, he is correct but too hasty. beside i personally think Ned is such an insufferable character who made me feel annoyed)

[sunset]

Spoiler for Too soon ? ^_^:

[Kyero Fox]

Not too soon, uninformed. Her Grayscale was cured long ago. So that little meme picture doesn't make sense. :P

[sunset]

it actually does.
It's very easy to picture Stannis bending over the deathbed of a dying Shiree and whispering a heartfelt:
"- I called every meister in the seven kingdoms. I swear here and now you will never die from grayscale."

[Theo]

Have you ever seen a TV episode come to life and tip its fedora?

Well you're in luck.

[germanturkey]

well then. that's quite a way to end the season.

[james0246]

Good ending for this very uneven season. I'm still not a fan of the Sansa nonsense (in the end her story was still overtaken by Theon's redemption story), and Jaime's Storyline was a complete mess (here's going that Trystane will now take Jaime prisoner and try to take him to Dany only to find Tyrion in her place), but many of the new changes were quite interesting and often good, and the acting was generally quite good. I appear to be damming with faint praise, but it's hard to really describe this season without thinking about how much had been changed (in other words is hard to be "objective" to just the tv series). If nothing else, some of the best moments of the series have occurred this season.

[Harbinger]

Season finale

Spoiler for :o:

Looks like the Snow storm met an abrupt end.