Mobile Suit Gundam 00 - Episode 03 Discussion / Poll

[Tak]

Here I will say arguing for realism in Gundam, even relative realism within context, is still a pretty stupid thing to do.

Why? Because down the road, that realism within context will be blown apart because of some cool executions on behalf of the ace pilots.

So why bother?

- Tak

[kiramuro]

Arg! Double Post.

[kiramuro]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Realism is relative. I can say Gundam 00 is more realistic than stick-figure animation, and I would be absolutely right.

If all else being equal only then you are correct. However if the stick-figure gundam adheres to accurate mechanics despite being only stick figures then it's hard to say which one is more realistic. One is more realistic looking while the other is more realistic in operation.

But what you are saying is that Realism is somehow a fixed-point of reference, and that thus I can't say 00 is more realistic than stick figures because you think it still isn't realistic enough.

To judge the realism of X compared to that of Y you'll need an "inertial" frame of reference. Real world physics, real world politics, real world sociology, real world human psychology, etc should be picked as that frame of reference because well all our concepts of realism is based on the real world. Everyone is subconciously making comparison to the real world when they deem something in gundam as realistic. However what I usually object to is the selective manner in which that thought process is applied. It usually creates a false gap on the realism scale between X and Y in gundam.

Originally Posted by Elehayym

I haven't really seen many fanboys boasting about realism in these threads till now though. It's been mainly people defending the series from other people that keep pointing the whole time how unrealistic this and that is. Not talking specifically about anyone, but I see many more bashers than fanboys in this thread, lol.

That said, I agree about fanboys being annoying, and that's exacty my point - I'm annoyed by mindless fanboyism as much as I'm annoyed by excessive bashing. Again this series till now is far from being perfect but gawd, posts in this thread makes it look like the worst and stupidest anime in the past few years or so

Well this whole debate did start with Anh_minh's response to a guy who boasted the realism in gundam 00.

[Elehayym]

Originally Posted by kiramuro

Well this whole debate did start with Anh_minh's response to a guy who boasted the realism in gundam 00.

This particular debate started because of one person that posted his first post in this thread, at some point around page 15 or after, saying that he thought it looked more realistic than Seed. Wasn't even saying it was realistic on a global scale.

Before that though, if you look at the whole thread there's plenty of posts criticizing every possible small detail of the episode; on the other side I don't really see that much fanboyism around.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

You know damn well that when the fanboys say Gundam is realistic, they don't mean "relatively to stick figures".

And you remember damn well that when this argument started, it was from a comment that claimed 00 is relatively realistic to SEED.

Q.E.D.

[Tak]

SEED started out fairly relatively realistic too. Until Freedom came about, and everything that still held just a fragment of relative realism within context got blown to bits.

Now, we are only on episode 3, and already we are commenting on how this whole show is going to be oh so realistic. Give me a break, man! Wait until Setsuna gets SUPER EXIA in episode 20+ and then we can testify whether or not realism in 00 can hold up to some of our expectations.

Besides, the Gundam pilots in 00 sure have an easier time than Kira when he first started.

- Tak

[CrisisDarkerXIV]

Eh, Graham has a nice-ass MS and some set of skills, that's why he didn't get owned in like 10 seconds.
Gundam Virtue owns.

[Duo Maxwell]

Originally Posted by Tak

Besides, the Gundam pilots in 00 sure have an easier time than Kira when he first started.

- Tak

A person who only control the Gundam for few times, and has absolutely no experience in battle, can own an ace, that's the problem there <_<.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Shinji103

The Star Wars fan in me screamed "RIPOFF!!"

Haven't you noticed all along that beam sabers are basically lightsabers? Heck, Tomino even said outright that Star Wars partially influenced Mobile Suit Gundam to begin with.

Originally Posted by Elehayym

And I DO believe that it's the same for most people, in fact, forgive me for saying it again, I rarely read this kind of criticism when it comes to other anime

Really? Perhaps it's because the nature of Gundam shows sort of invites this kind of criticism. I'm actually much less critical of how unrealistic the combat is in Gundam shows than some other shows - Zipang and Legend of Galactic Heroes spring immediately to mind.

Originally Posted by Elehayym

Before that though, if you look at the whole thread there's plenty of posts criticizing every possible small detail of the episode; on the other side I don't really see that much fanboyism around.

Welcome to the Gundam forum! You'll find far more nitpicking here than you'll see in just about any other part of Animesuki! Seriously though, Gundam shows have been more thoroughly analyzed than anything else since (at least) Seed started. Some people will treat nitpicks as items of import in and of themselves, while others will bring them in to counter certain points. Admittedly, it'd be nice if we had a poster (or two) who just goes around saying "but that really isn't important". At least we're not going on about how certain characters' theme music isn't heroic enough, or something like that (yet) .

[Tak]

Originally Posted by Duo Maxwell

A person who only control the Gundam for few times, and has absolutely no experience in battle, can own an ace, that's the problem there <_<.

Except we are told that Kira was a super coordinator.

Then again, during Kira's initial struggle against other coordinator pilots, it was actually uncle Mu (a super ace in his own right) who bailed his ass out. Moreover, we have no evidence to suggest that Yzak & co. had prior combat experience except they graduated top of their classes.

There is your excuse. It may not a very good one, but its a valid one

- Tak (Besides, Rusty and Miguel? Aces? No way!)

[hipeach]

I don't understand why people try to analyze from scientific point of view on the realism of Gundam shows. It's common knowledge that Gundams are named as "real robot shows" which is different from "super robot shows", so obviously there is some point in distinguishing between the so-called "relative realism" between mecha shows, or do we want to go to Japan and scream at all those kids until they all accept that "real robot shows" are not more... real than "super robot shows"... or we scream them all to death?

And people should remember Gundam shows are aimed at kids, not scientists with PhDs, and for kids, obviously some melee fights are more realistic than beam spammings, since when kids fight, they usually do melee, not spam range attacks

I guess the "realism" in mecha shows are meant to describe how "realistic" the scenes look, not how realistic they are under scientific analysis. That's why the common people think Bernie fighting Chris one on one with a heat axe and some balloons look more realistic than Kira owning hundreds of enemies with beam spamming.

[Nightengale]

It perplexes me a little that within realism context, people use FREEDOM, etc (( which came like... halfway through SEED )) and not Strike, when basing on RELATIVE realism. It's only episode 3, and let's face it, the suits will either get upgraded or be replaced with a better one. The question is of course... how much better.

Originally Posted by Tak

Except we are told that Kira was a super coordinator.

Then again, during Kira's initial struggle against other coordinator pilots, it was actually uncle Mu (a super ace in his own right) who bailed his ass out. Moreover, we have no evidence to suggest that Yzak & co. had prior combat experience except they graduated top of their classes.

There is your excuse. It may not a very good one, but its a valid one

- Tak (Besides, Rusty and Miguel? Aces? No way!)

Miguel was an ace, but his weapons did jack against PS. Besides, with Kira reprogramming Strike, he pretty much stripped the entire Strike anew to a point where he probably knows every single electronics aspect of Strike, technically.

It's not like these Gundam pilots (( or at least Hallelujah )) are super-veterans either. Due to the need to keep Gundams a secret, I bet most of their time were spent on simulations anyway.

The 2nd time, Kira had already felt the comfort of actually having fought once and it's not like he fought 'well' against on par suits. On a relative aspect, personally, by episode 3, SEED felt just as if not more realistic than 00 at episode 3, if only simply because GN Particles didn't exist in Cosmic-verse.

[hipeach]

Originally Posted by Nightengale

The 2nd time, Kira had already felt the comfort of actually having fought once and it's not like he fought 'well' against on par suits. On a relative aspect, personally, by episode 3, SEED felt just as if not more realistic than 00 at episode 3, if only simply because GN Particles didn't exist in Cosmic-verse.

IMHO the Gundams in Double O is definitely much more super roboty than those in SEED, or pretty much all previous Gundams except maybe Wing and Turn A, despite the fights may look more realistic (well, Turn A's fights also look quite realistic despite the Turn A being pratically a super robot). It's mainly because of those godly GN particles I guess, which makes the Gundams pretty invincible against everything else, like Getter Beam, Super Alloy Z, Tekkaman, whatnot. In UC they had the Minovsky particles, but at least pretty much everyone had them.

[Realist_Classic]

SEED started out fairly relatively realistic too. Until Freedom came about, and everything that still held just a fragment of relative realism within context got blown to bits.

Now, we are only on episode 3, and already we are commenting on how this whole show is going to be oh so realistic. Give me a break, man! Wait until Setsuna gets SUPER EXIA in episode 20+ and then we can testify whether or not realism in 00 can hold up to some of our expectations.

Besides, the Gundam pilots in 00 sure have an easier time than Kira when he first started.

- Tak

I'm not sure if you could say that Kira and Co. had a harder time. The writers made their situation a bit more dire by placing Jesus and his crew on the defensive for most of the show. But, then again the audience had an inkling as to Kira's inherent combat genius almost from episode 1. By what he was able to achieve, the audience was clued in to assume (because of relative realism) that Kira could hold his own against Athrun and well-trained Coordinators. And he and his friends held up really well.

The situation is reversed in 00. The Gundammeisters and Celestial Being are on the offensive, meaning they get to (temporarily) dictate the terms of war until the Big Three come up with some kind of response. The real question is will the Big Three come up with effective countermeasures? For the sake of a good story, I doubt they are going to let CB run loose, and my hunch is that CB will eventually find themselves in deep trouble.

Furthermore, we have almost *nothing* on the backgrounds of the Gundammeisters. We only know that Setsuna was a child soldier and he may have been inspired to join Celestial Being after being saved by a Gundam. We don't really know his true motivations, but I'll bet that to be good enough to pilot Exia, it's more than talent alone.

Global problems, tensions that requires a need for resolution and troubled pasts--all the elements of a good epic, provided there's plenty of time to let the story unfold!

[hipeach]

Originally Posted by Nightengale

It perplexes me a little that within realism context, people use FREEDOM, etc (( which came like... halfway through SEED )) and not Strike, when basing on RELATIVE realism. It's only episode 3, and let's face it, the suits will either get upgraded or be replaced with a better one. The question is of course... how much better.

well, at least I didn't compare Freedom with the Gundams in Double O, I just compared Kira's beam spamming with Bernie's heat axe and balloons, which came at like... the end of 0080

Anyway I'm definitely not going to say Double O being more realistic than SEED, since IMHO Double O starts off practically a super robot show anyway. But then I'd say Double O's fights so far (and most of Turn A's fights) do look more realistic than Kira's beam spamming, when we compare the fights themselves, in terms of "relative realism". My point is just that, using melee weapons does not automatically mean it's not more realistic than beam spamming, when we talk in terms of how they look in mecha shows, not scientific analysis

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by hipeach

I guess the "realism" in mecha shows are meant to describe how "realistic" the scenes look, not how realistic they are under scientific analysis. That's why the common people think Bernie fighting Chris one on one with a heat axe and some balloons look more realistic than Kira owning hundreds of enemies with beam spamming.

In that case, the proper way to phrase it would be to say that certain scenes feel more "intuitive" or "natural". Since these don't necessarily have anything to do with what's realistic, using the word "realism" in this sense is completely incorrect.

[Blaat]

Do you guys have this discussion every Gundam 00 episode thread or just this one?

[Anh_Minh]

Meh. Beam spamming's always kind of made sense to me. When life hands you a target rich environment and a truckload of guns, use them.


And guys, OK, maybe I do have a bit of a knee jerk reaction when I hear "Gundam" and "realistic" in the same sentence. Especially if the sentence is "Gundam <insert suffix here> is so much more realistic than <insert series, which may or may not be a Gundam, here>".


But if so, I know where I acquired that habit... Here, in this forum.

Originally Posted by Blaat

Do you guys have this discussion every Gundam 00 episode thread or just this one?

Judging from past experience, I'd say we're going to have this discussion in every episode thread. Also, in other threads. Like the one we'll no doubt have about the CB plans, for example. And possibly in the ones we'll have about characters. And maybe even in the pairing thread, if we ever get one.

[aohige]

@the silly realism debate that's been taking up two consecutive episode threads in a row

Ok, the horse is dead. As a matter of fact, it was dead before this discussion started. Please stop beating on it.

[hipeach]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

In that case, the proper way to phrase it would be to say that certain scenes feel more "intuitive" or "natural". Since these don't necessarily have anything to do with what's realistic, using the word "realism" in this sense is completely incorrect.

well, the Japanese kids are obviously not linguistic expert. maybe they think it's more "intuitive" to call Gundam as "real robot shows", instead of "intuitive robot shows"?

Again, we should be talking about "realism" in mecha shows in the common kids terms, not scientific or linguistic analysis.