[Manga] Rasengan, Chidori & their variants

[Shadamehr]

Originally Posted by Hunter

Frankly the whole explanation seems perfectly enough to be amazed.

The whole discussion does not explain:

Ino: Yeah right.

Since she just *saw* the raikiri. The only thing for her to disbelieve is that Kakashi could have cut a bolt of lightning. If that thing were actually a lightning jutsu, she'd have absolutely no reason to disbelieve that Kakashi could put lightning into his hand and cut stuff with it since she JUST SAW Sasuke do it.

Because I didn't see any point here, indeed there is chakra, the main point of the Chidori is to heighten the flesh with super-concentrated chakra, I said that their is lightning in the Raikiri, not that there isn't chakra.

The point is that they said "the CHAKRA is clearly VISIBLE". This is not something they would say if it were merely a chakra-induced lightning element. Just like when Sasuke uses fire jutsus, Sakura does not think "woah, the chakra is visible!" because the fire is visible and it is made with chakra. If the raikiri were simply a lightning element attack that was created with chakra, then nobody would think "the chakra is clearly visible". The fact that they did implies that the blue stuff is chakra, not lightning.

Raikiri is a nickname earned when Kakashi cut a bolt of lightning with that technique.
First sentence : the Raikiri is a Chidori.
3rd sentence : The Raikiri is a chidori with lightning.

It is highly unlikely that

Gai: Chidori, or as its also known, Raikiri.

can be interpreted as the Raikiri is *a* Chidori. It is far more 'logical and simple' to interpret it as a Chidori can also be called a Raikiri.

Actually yes, and I always prefer the more logical and the simpliest one.
If Kakashi put lightning in the chidori that explains everything,the other meaning is possible but doesn't explain anything.

Both explanations are quite logical, and explain plenty. Raikiri translates to lightning edge or lightning drill. This could be an edge or drill made of lightning, or an edge or drill that cuts lightning. Like a butterknife cuts butter and is not made of butter.

[Hunter]

Damn i erased my whole post by mistake -_-
Let's retype that quickly.


You don't understand what I said : indeed there is chakra, the main point of the Chidori is to heighten the flesh with super-concentrated chakra, I said that there is lightning in the Raikiri, not that there isn't chakra.

Got it?
There is no chakra into a fire ball even if you need chakra to create fire.
There is chakra in the Raikiri (it's the main point of the jutsu), but there is also lightning all around.

And both explanations are possible but one of them doesn't explain at all why the jutsu is all lightning-ish at the opposite of all the other chakra-jutsu.
That doesn't explain either that the special book that is (like it or not) officially written by Kishimoto explain that the Raikiri and the Chidori are different because of the lightning.
In the other hand the reaction of Ino that you show (i don't have the manga on this HD but i kinda remember that) is more understandable with the first explanation.
But like I said I the other thread (arg we are completely off topic here).

Frankly I don't really care if Kakashi cut a lightning (by whatever way) one day or if Sasuke will rename the Chidori the Sunakiri because he cut once through the Sand.
The whole point is about the fact that there are real lightning in the Raikiri

[Shadamehr]

Originally Posted by Hunter

Damn i erased my whole post by mistake -_-
Let's retype that quickly.


You don't understand what I said : indeed there is chakra, the main point of the Chidori is to heighten the flesh with super-concentrated chakra, I said that there is lightning in the Raikiri, not that there isn't chakra.

Ah, I see. However that is still entirely tangential to the point I was trying to convey. To break down:

Raikiri has exactly one visible effect: the blue stuff that looks like lightning.
Both Zabuza and Sakura: The chakra is clearly visible!
Therefore the blue stuff is a visual representation of chakra.

If it were real lightning, that contained chakra, there would be no reason to say "The chakra is clearly visible!" since its not at all surprising for lightning to be visible.

That doesn't explain either that the special book that is (like it or not) officially written by Kishimoto explain that the Raikiri and the Chidori are different because of the lightning.

I'd still have to get my hands on it or a scan of it and have a look, but as I said, it's not uncommon at all for there to be special books that are not written by the author, which are full of misinformation. And these books usually get the author's official signature anyway for marketing purposes.

In the other hand the reaction of Ino that you show (i don't have the manga on this HD but i kinda remember that) is more understandable with the first explanation.
But like I said I the other thread (arg we are completely off topic here).

I'm not entirely convinced either way whether or not the Raikiri has lightning in it or is just chakra. I may end up agreeing with you on that. But, I definitely think the manga's clear statement is that chidori and raikiri are the same thing. If raikiri has lightning, then chidori must as well.

[Coder8]

Hey guys how about this.
We cant prove within a reasonable doubt that either one is right.
Looks like lightning to me on both ones. Its lightning! Ya!!!!

Also what does Ino know about a high level jutsu like that? She disbelives a comment made by Gai. Let her. She isnt a hokage by any means so she doesnt stand as much evidenace.
________
Colorado Marijuana Dispensary

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by Shadamehr

Ah, I see. However that is still entirely tangential to the point I was trying to convey. To break down:

Raikiri has exactly one visible effect: the blue stuff that looks like lightning.
Both Zabuza and Sakura: The chakra is clearly visible!
Therefore the blue stuff is a visual representation of chakra.

If it were real lightning, that contained chakra, there would be no reason to say "The chakra is clearly visible!" since its not at all surprising for lightning to be visible.

Really you miss my point, I don't know what you meant by lightning that contained chakra.
Seriously I think i'm clear : Indeed the chakra is clearly visible because there is a big amount of chakra around the hand.
What can I say to make you understand except to repeat my sentence : There is chakra in the Raikiri (it's the main point of the jutsu), but there is also lightning all around.

What's the unclear point? I will requote myself : the main point of the Chidori is to heighten the flesh with super-concentrated chakra.

Once again I don't say that there isn't Chakra, the whole point of this jutsu is the chakra, I say that there is also lightning.

I'd still have to get my hands on it or a scan of it and have a look, but as I said, it's not uncommon at all for there to be special books that are not written by the author, which are full of misinformation. And these books usually get the author's official signature anyway for marketing purposes.

Find a scan is possible but that only exist in japanese so if you can't read it will not be really useful.
And even if it's always possible that a book about an universe of a manga is written by someone else that the mangaka (even if he signed the work) it's unlikely here, because it talk about several thing that only happen in the manga after that the books were published (about the capacities of the Four Sound ninja for example).

[Shadamehr]

Originally Posted by Hunter

Really you miss my point, I don't know what you meant by lightning that contained chakra.
Seriously I think i'm clear : Indeed the chakra is clearly visible because there is a big amount of chakra around the hand.
What can I say to make you understand except to repeat my sentence : There is chakra in the Raikiri (it's the main point of the jutsu), but there is also lightning all around.

I think there's some misunderstanding here. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think your stance is that the Raikiri has chakra visible on the hand and lightning all around. This is where we disagree. Looking at the manga and at the anime, it appears to me, that visually, the bolts around the hand and the stuff on the hand look exactly the same. In otherwords, there is only one visible thing, which is that blue stuff which is glowing about the hand and arcing all around. And, since Zabuza and Sakura say that the chakra is *visible* and not merely capable of being sensed, then it follows that the blue stuff is chakra and not lightning.

If there were lightning, then that would mean the blue stuff is lightning, and nothing else is visible. In other words, if there is lightning, then the chakra is *not* visible, because clearly the only thing we can see is the lightning.

Allow me to borrow a pic you put up earlier on this thread:


As you can see, the outline of the chidori is of only *one* substance, there are no dividing lines. It begins by surrounding Sasuke's hand, then continues to arc out in a pattern that appear like lightning. There are two possibilities:

1) The substance is lightning, and the chakra is not visible.
2) The substance is chakra, and there is no lightning.

If it were both lightning and chakra, then Sakura and Zabuza would not comment in such a surprised fashion that "The chakra is clearly visible!" I mean then, it would be chakra-lightning, which looks like lightning. There's nothing surprising about that.

[gothlink666]

i think that if the chidori and rasengan hit each other that chidori would cut through
the blast but rasengan's blast would take up all of chidori so it would never hit naruto
and if chidori hit neji's whirl it would do the same thing maybe it could still hit neji but not enough to kill him pending where it hits
and if rasengan hit the whirl the 2 would cancel out throwing a huge twister like shock wave in both ways

[Shadamehr]

The way I see it, there's three possibilities:

1a) The jutsus don't interact with each other at all. They pass right through each other and both sides get pwn3d.

1b) The jutsus don't interact. Chidori passes through and splits off hand of Rasengan user. Rasengan passes through and blows off arm of Chidori user (since Rasengan seems to penetrate much farther into away from the actual point of impact than the Chidori). At this point, both jutsus deactivate and the users get to live.

2) The chakra does interact. Massive amount of blade-like, cutting chakra touches massive amount of high velocity, randomly swirling chakra, all hell breaks loose, both sides get pwn3d.

This can only end badly for both users, IMO.

[Naruto sama]

meh,
i remember kakashi commenting something about that that the resengan would've killed sasuke- somewhere...

plz dont flame me now

[Hunter]

Oups sorry, I had missed your answer Shadamehr.

Originally Posted by Shadamehr

Allow me to borrow a pic you put up earlier on this thread:


As you can see, the outline of the chidori is of only *one* substance, there are no dividing lines. It begins by surrounding Sasuke's hand, then continues to arc out in a pattern that appear like lightning. There are two possibilities:

1) The substance is lightning, and the chakra is not visible.
2) The substance is chakra, and there is no lightning.

If it were both lightning and chakra, then Sakura and Zabuza would not comment in such a surprised fashion that "The chakra is clearly visible!" I mean then, it would be chakra-lightning, which looks like lightning. There's nothing surprising about that.

Actually this pic is the only one where the Chidori doesn't look like lightning at all, but more like a trail of chakra (which it would be if it's a Chidori).

When Kakashi did a Raikiri the chakra and the lightning bolt around are differentiated.



The lightning starts to appear before that the chakra becomes enough concentrated to be visible



And then you can see the mass of the chakra around his hand, the lightning still surrounding his body, the chakra hasn't any contact with the lightning.

Originally Posted by Naruto-sama

meh,
i remember kakashi commenting something about that that the resengan would've killed sasuke- somewhere...

And Jiraiya answers to Kakashi that it was the same with his Chidori.

[Crimson]

Actually Hunter, Jiraiya never said that at all. Kakashi said the worst case scenario is that it would have killed Sasuke, and then he said that technique is too much for Naruto. And then Jiraiya said, lets be fair, that technique is too much for Sasuke also. And then he said he never thought Naruto was the type that would use that technique on his teamates.

He never once said that the Chidori would have killed Naruto.

From what went on in that conversation, it looked like Jiraiya, and Kakashi was more worried about Sasuke's safety more than Naruto's. So that can be more proof that the Rasengan is alot stronger compared to the Chidori.

[EbonySeraphim]

Wow, Hunter is proven wrong in something...that's a first. I just read the part in the manga myself again, and Crimson is right - Jiariya only comments that the level of Chidori Sasuke used was too much for him. Not that it would kill Naruto.

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by Crimson

Actually Hunter, Jiraiya never said that at all. Kakashi said the worst case scenario is that it would have killed Sasuke, and then he said that technique is too much for Naruto. And then Jiraiya said, lets be fair, that technique is too much for Sasuke also. And then he said he never thought Naruto was the type that would use that technique on his teamates.

He never once said that the Chidori would have killed Naruto.

You changed the order of the sentence of Kakashi...

Kakashi : For him [Naruto] to control that jutsu... I fear it's too early.
Sasuke would have been killed by that hit, even if it's for his protection against Akatsuki... It's too much.
Jiraiya : Haha... We are even with this Chidori of yours... They don't seem to be the type... Who would use those dangerous jutsu against compagnions.

So yes Jiraiya said exactly what I said.
And btw Jiraiya meant also that the Chidori was too early for Sasuke as the Rasengan was too early for Naruto because he answered to the whole sentence, not only the part of the sentence that you want.

But even with your point that Jiraiya only answered to the last part of Kakashi's sentence, it remains the same, the last part of his sentence was about Sasuke who would have been killed.

[Shadamehr]

Originally Posted by Hunter

Oups sorry, I had missed your answer Shadamehr.

Hehe, it's all good, you're allowed to have things to do besides debate with me:P

Actually this pic is the only one where the Chidori doesn't look like lightning at all, but more like a trail of chakra (which it would be if it's a Chidori).

When Kakashi did a Raikiri the chakra and the lightning bolt around are differentiated.
The lightning starts to appear before that the chakra becomes enough concentrated to be visible
And then you can see the mass of the chakra around his hand, the lightning still surrounding his body, the chakra hasn't any contact with the lightning.

Hmm, you're right, it's much more debatable in these pictures. I still think, however, that the 'lightning' and the stuff on the hand are the same thing. If you look at your second picture, there's a part on the bottom where one of the bolts connects with the stuff around Kakashi's hand, and it doesn't look like it's two separate things touching, it looks like an extension of whatever is on his hand. So it looks to me like the bolts all around are just chakra.

[EbonySeraphim]

The manga translation I have doesn't phrase it in that order at all.

[EDIT] Directed towards Hunter

[Crimson]

Originally Posted by Hunter

You changed the order of the sentence of Kakashi...

Kakashi : For him [Naruto] to control that jutsu... I fear it's too early.
Sasuke would have been killed by that hit, even if it's for his protection against Akatsuki... It's too much.
Jiraiya : Haha... We are even with this Chidori of yours... They don't seem to be the type... Who would use those dangerous jutsu against compagnions.

So yes Jiraiya said exactly what I said.
And btw Jiraiya meant also that the Chidori was too early for Sasuke as the Rasengan was too early for Naruto because he answered to the whole sentence, not only the part of the sentence that you want.

But even with your point that Jiraiya only answered to the last part of Kakashi's sentence, it remains the same, the last part of his sentence was about Sasuke who would have been killed.

I didn't change the order of anything. I might have left out the part when Kakashi talk about the akatsuki but what you just wrote is not even close to what they actually said in the chapter.

[Slade]

Let me just clear this one up for you folks so you guys can stop debating




Harem No Homo No Jutsu > Homo No Jutsu > Rasengan/Chidori

[shiznitty]

my god that was random
XD

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by Crimson

I didn't change the order of anything. I might have left out the part when Kakashi talk about the akatsuki but what you just wrote is not even close to what they actually said in the chapter.

We obviously don't have the same translation, if I remember well the 'word case scenario' sentence was in the inane translation right?

Because in this translation too the order of the sentence was : Naruto's too young for that jutsu then Sasuke could have been killed then the Akatsuki stuff, so exactly the same in both translation.

The difference was only on the answer of Jiraiya so : 'Haha... We are even with this Chidori of yours/Let's be fair that Chidori's too much for Sasuke too' which have the same meaning in the end, Sasuke and Naruto are too young to use such letal jutsus.


Slade, don't burn my eyes like that without warning

[Crimson]

Originally Posted by Hunter

We obviously don't have the same translation, if I remember well the 'word case scenario' sentence was in the inane translation right?

Because in this translation too the order of the sentence was : Naruto's too young for that jutsu then Sasuke could have been killed then the Akatsuki stuff, so exactly the same in both translation.

The difference was only on the answer of Jiraiya so : 'Haha... We are even with this Chidori of yours/Let's be fair that Chidori's too much for Sasuke too' which have the same meaning in the end, Sasuke and Naruto are too young to use such letal jutsus.


Slade, don't burn my eyes like that without warning

Well yeah, i know Sasuke and Naruto are both too young to be using those techniques but that wasn't really the point i brought up.

What i was saying is that Jiraiya never said the Chidori would have killed Naruto like what you originally said.

BTW, what group did the translation for the chapter you have? I have a Inana translation of that chapter.