Macross Frontier Character Discussion - Ranka Lee

[SethEng]

Originally Posted by willyvereb

About Ranka:She knows that the Vajra is peacefull...that's why she was somewhat against the whole fighting and she knew that she have a chance to pacify them. The interesting thing that she didn't speak about it! Almost everyone exept her thought that the Vajra is nothing other than an agressive biomechanical weapon.

See, here's the problem with this Vajra are peaceful deal. They're not and they demonstrated the by showing up and opening fire on Frontier ships with no warning and no communication. Peaceful beings don't do things like that. And considering that all the forms of the Vajra are armed, sometimes quite heavily, and they attack rather relentlessly, mercilessly, and without warning, they most certainly are aggressive biomechanical weapons.

This is the thing. The Vajra? They *started* the fight. They kicked in Frontier's front door and started shooting. If someone did that to your home, what are you going to do? Assume they're really peaceful and you just need to understand them? Or are you going to shoot back and worry about understanding them after you've gotten them to stop being mindlessly hostile and aggressive for no visible reason?

Also, all Ranka can offer is "I think they're peaceful." And generally, she can only offer that while the Vajra are attacking the fleet with a mind to destroy it. I'm sure the people of Frontier would have been perfectly happy coming to a reasonable agreement with the Vajra about not killing each other, but the Vajra don't seem to work like that. That's probably because the Vajra's first reaction to meeting Frontier was to try and kill it.

So, just to make this clear and simple, the Vajra are not peaceful. Peaceful races don't immediately go into kill mode. The Vajra went into kill mode, therefore the Vajra are not peaceful. Wishful thinking doesn't make it so and to reinforce that you might want to look up Neville Chamberlain sometime. But that's just the historian in me talking.

[raile]

On the whole comparison to Lacus, Ranka's actions were a far cry from Lacus'. Because Lacus actually knew what to do. There was careful planning involved, unlike what was going on with Ranka.

[Tak]

I am utterly unconvinced that the Vajra are ... peaceful in ways that we may understand it.

However, they are indeed very curious about human beings, but the way they satisfy their curiosity leaves a lot to be desired. After all, humanity did little to offend them. Sure, Ranshe was experimented with the Vajra gene, but the only thing that resulted in this experiment was Ranka's birth with the Vajra gene. Nothing more. Yet, just to capture this little girl, the Vajra made no hesitation in crippling a research fleet, and then proceed onto a full-scale assault against a massive colonial fleet with some 10 million people onboard?

A bit extreme to actually be deemed peaceful, don't you think?

- Tak

[Father Hentai]

I think what you say about the vajra at the current date of Macross the people must have had the same thoughts when they first encountered the zentraedis. The Zents were also very aggressive at the beginning.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by Father Hentai

The Zents were also very aggressive at the beginning.

And they are still aggressive. Keep in mind that only a handful of Zents have been converted, or rather, they simply chose a different side.

Humans barely encountered 1 fleet out of 2,000+ in the galaxy and had their home world in ruins. I cannot imagine what would happen once they encounter the rest of the trillion other Zents.

- Tak

[Father Hentai]

I don' t forget that but still there has been a possibility found to make peace with them.

I try to compare the Vajra with our common insects like our ants. With exception of one ant race they are mostly peaceful if you are not intervening with their ecological system.

Originally Posted by SethEng

See, here's the problem with this Vajra are peaceful deal. They're not and they demonstrated the by showing up and opening fire on Frontier ships with no warning and no communication. Peaceful beings don't do things like that. And considering that all the forms of the Vajra are armed, sometimes quite heavily, and they attack rather relentlessly, mercilessly, and without warning, they most certainly are aggressive biomechanical weapons.

Well, think back what happened earlier whith the 117th Research fleet. This is the breaking point where the Vajra got aggressive. If I compare them now with my example with the ants it was humankind which entered the Vajras domain although it was only for research. Whatever happened in the past it has something to do either with Ranka/Ranshe or the researches of Grace. That the Vajra attacked the Macross Frontier was because they have in their images of the humans that they are all equal and all "evil".

[justavisitor]

@Everyone who discusses my point of comparing Ranka and Lacus

I like Gundam Seed better XD...and as I said in my previous post, If I were Ranka, I would go with a Ship...sort of like Lacus going away with Eternal

And my point of bring out Lacus as an example is, depending one's point of view, if one thinks one additional death is too much, then Lacus's departure may cause solider in Zaft to die, and from Zaft's citizen point of view, Lacus can be a traitor, because after all, she left with the Zaft ship and came back with Meteor to massively bombing both side, and while Kira always does no-kill, same cannot be said for Eternal missile

While in Ranka's case, as I have said earlier, she probably would go back to MF after talking with Vajra...she would warn MF if Vajra clearly tells her that they want to attack MF, or come back to tell MF the good news that communication has been reached...But Grace comes out, make Vajra go nuts, then capture Ranka

So in summary, If i were Ranka I might go with MQ, or ask Leon for permission to go with MQ and be a peace ambassador, but if she thinks she needs the least interfere to get the job done, and believe in Alto/Brera, and will probably come back to MF to either warn them or tell them the good news, then it's explainable

Well, at least now everyone agrees she goes looking for peace...earlier times ppl were saying she goes with the wish of sending ai-kun back to its home only XD

[Tak]

Originally Posted by justavisitor

Well, at least now everyone agrees she goes looking for peace...earlier times ppl were saying she goes with the wish of sending ai-kun back to its home only XD

Actually, we do believe that she was seeking peace. What we were arguing however, is that seeking peace was only an alternative to her inability to face her greater emotional reality. Many people would agree that seeking peace was a spontaneous decision, one she did not plan out very carefully, and only occurred when she witnessed the unthinkable.

This is unlike Lacus, who had already infiltrated ZAFT before taking action.

- Tak

[SethEng]

Originally Posted by Father Hentai

I try to compare the Vajra with our common insects like our ants. With exception of one ant race they are mostly peaceful if you are not intervening with their ecological system.

Except they're not. Ants are tiny, mindless critters driven by instinct while the Vajra are large, hive minded critters with weapons capable of destroying warships like they're toys. With Energy Converting Armor. And keep in mind, this doesn't appear to be a new development. The Vajra had all these things when the 117th found them and probably when the Protoculture found them. They're built for war and always have been. While that's not an automatic negative, aside from the little green ones, there's little else they're good for.

I think a better comparison for the Vajra are Japanese Giant Hornets. Ants just aren't anywhere near hardcore enough.

Originally Posted by Father Hentai

Well, think back what happened earlier whith the 117th Research fleet. This is the breaking point where the Vajra got aggressive. If I compare them now with my example with the ants it was humankind which entered the Vajras domain although it was only for research. Whatever happened in the past it has something to do either with Ranka/Ranshe or the researches of Grace. That the Vajra attacked the Macross Frontier was because they have in their images of the humans that they are all equal and all "evil".

See, people forget bits and piece of the series. What, exactly, was the 117th doing to get the Vajra into a massive blood rage, except, perhaps, Ranka singing their mating song? Also, don't treat the Vajra as if they're some kind of simple life form that can't think to separate good humans from bad humans. The Vajra form a giant, networked, hive mind. While the individual bugs are probably about as bright as a brick, being that they don't have a brain, when you combine the entire hive, you get an "individual" with billions or trillions of bodies that are probably the finest biological weapon systems short of the Protodevilin.

The real problem with the Vajra is that until Episode 25, they viewed Humanity the same way. See, if you kill a bunch of space bugs, the Hive Mind might lose a little processor power or something like that, but it doesn't die, it doesn't go away. This is how they viewed humanity. They really didn't have a problem killing everything and anything they came across, because they didn't understand that Humans and Zentraedi and everything else are individual beings that are lost forever when they die. That's not how things work for the Vajra, so they just assumed everyone else was like them.

This is probably why they seemed to have high tailed it out of there at the end of 25. The Hive Mind realized what it was doing and probably felt bad about it. In the end though, it's still the Vajra's fault and they were still being mindlessly aggressive and not peaceful at all. As far as I can tell, the 117th didn't attack them either.

So we return to the point that the Vajra are not peaceful. This is demonstrated time and time again throughout the show.

[Father Hentai]

Originally Posted by SethEng

Except they're not. Ants are tiny, mindless critters driven by instinct while the Vajra are large, hive minded critters with weapons capable of destroying warships like they're toys. With Energy Converting Armor. And keep in mind, this doesn't appear to be a new development. The Vajra had all these things when the 117th found them and probably when the Protoculture found them. They're built for war and always have been. While that's not an automatic negative, aside from the little green ones, there's little else they're good for.

I think a better comparison for the Vajra are Japanese Giant Hornets. Ants just aren't anywhere near hardcore enough.

I don' t know if you skipped Biology in your classes but you just proof that you have very little knowledge about insects...

See as reference that insects (ants are also insects) do have a way of intelligence:
http://www.animalbehavioronline.com/insectbrains.html

You can compare the vajra with every insect who create colonies or hives. insects, ants, bees, wasps whatever. All these are comparable. And for the Vajra "brain". That part is in their belly not in their headpart.


This is now getting off topic. Do we have a thread for Vajra Discussion? Because I feel better to have this moved because this theme moves away from points to discuss about Ranka.

Originally Posted by Tak

Actually, we do believe that she was seeking peace. What we were arguing however, is that seeking peace was only an alternative to her inability to face her greater emotional reality. Many people would agree that seeking peace was a spontaneous decision, one she did not plan out very carefully, and only occurred when she witnessed the unthinkable.

- Tak

Every person have their own way how to handle emotions. The decision of Ranka to on a journey to bring Ai kun can be seen that she wants to have some distance to Alto because this is the only way from her view that she can be sure "her heart belongs to herself".

Btw. As you are willing to agree that seeking peace is spontanious do I get a conformation from you that her leaving with Brera was not planned? This is a point where closed with 2 optional way how she is leaving Frontier

[Tak]

Originally Posted by Father Hentai

Btw. As you are willing to agree that seeking peace is spontanious do I get a conformation from you that her leaving with Brera was not planned? This is a point where closed with 2 optional way how she is leaving Frontier

Just because it was a spontaneous decision does not mean it was not planned, even if done poorly. I don't know why you are still arguing over this even with all the evidence laid out in front of you. It is a safe bet to assume that Berera had somehow encouraged Ranka into doing it.

But really, either they planned it beforehand or Berera is a psychic and Ranka is dimmer than I thought. Plead mistake or stupidity, take your pick.

Ranka probably knew that Alto did not want to go with her, but attempted a last ditch effort, only to make things worse for everyone. She had no other options than to leave with Berera, after all, I cannot imagine Alto jacking a NUNS property, slap on a booster and flee. I am sorry, but while Alto may be dense, he is not that stupid.

And come on, she is willing to trust a person whom she had met only for days just because he affirmed her feelings? Then again, that is her streak throughout the show, but if that is not childish, I don't know what that is.

- Tak

[Father Hentai]

Originally Posted by Tak

Just because it was a spontaneous decision does not mean it was not planned, even if done poorly. I don't know why you are still arguing over this even with all the evidence laid out in front of you. It is a safe bet to assume that Berera had somehow encouraged Ranka into doing it.

It is not laid out. What is known that Brera had the fold boosts but neither it is clear if he prepared this due to his own observations on Rankas actions before the meeting or if Ranka and he both arranged it. If you are still sticking with the last part show me the scene with the minutes. I just mentioned this back again as a joke but well. I thought the smiley was a hint enough that it was only a joke...

Originally Posted by Tak

And come on, she is willing to trust a person whom she had met only for days just because he affirmed her feelings? Then again, that is her streak throughout the show, but if that is not childish, I don't know what that is.

Who was left to be on her side, when she got isolated from her friends? Is it wrong to be friendly and to start to trust them? A thing why Ranka opened herself is because Brera also opened himself a bit too. Small chit chat, bla bla bla and there you go, a small romance although they did not know that they are brother and sister.

[justavisitor]

And the fact that Brera somehow gives Ranka a feeling that she can trust him?? Even tho they did not know that they were sibling, but the feeling (or bond) existed in their mind somehow??

[Tak]

Originally Posted by Father Hentai

It is not laid out. What is known that Brera had the fold boosts but neither it is clear if he prepared this due to his own observations on Rankas actions before the meeting or if Ranka and he both arranged it.

Berera knew exactly where to show up, when to show up and even down to who he'd expect once he showed up. You are telling me Berera & Ranka did not coordinate and plan all this? Never mind that he even had a booster ready and a Valkyrie parked at a precise location? And if she is not to go with Berera, you are telling me she is willing to have Alto risk his life by infiltrating into a heavily guarded NUNS compound, steal a F-171, and if he is lucky, manage to find a booster along the way, then he'd have to fend off a hail of anti-air fire, which mind you, Alto isn't the best pilot for the job, never mind that Berera would most definitely take him down in the process. After all that, I highly doubt Alto and Ranka would still be in a condition to continue further with their journey.

Berera on the other hand, is not bound by the NUNS, thus giving him a larger degree of freedom to do what he pleases. Even Ranka knows this, so why do you think she'd not plan with Berera?

Again, either Berera is psychic and Ranka is stupid, or they planned it. Take your pick, because you are only doing Ranka a huge disservice by insisting that Ranka knew nothing of the plan.

Originally Posted by Father Hentai

Who was left to be on her side, when she got isolated from her friends? Is it wrong to be friendly and to start to trust them? A thing why Ranka opened herself is because Brera also opened himself a bit too. Small chit chat, bla bla bla and there you go, a small romance although they did not know that they are brother and sister.

Yes, and she is still going with a half-stranger. Thank you, that does not change the fact that her actions were completely immature and childish. Even kids at her age know not to hop on a ride just because some individual showed a bit of friendliness. Never mind that Ranka took an intergalactic trip!

Moreover, this statement alone is a contradiction to your earlier statement regarding Ranka knowing nothing about Berera's intentions in taking her on a far away trip.

- Tak

[willyvereb]

For Ranka's deffense: she met with Brera long timne before he became her bodyguard and if i am not mistaken he was her bodyguard for more than a month...and he did a lot of things that helped to gain Ranka's trust. So he wasn't a stranger. In practice he was a person she trusts the most after her "brother"(Ozma) and Alto.
Now that you remember me:Realy...Ranka just ran away from the reality again! She have seen the suffering and knew her guilt in it. Then at least there's a case when she at least have a feeling of guilt. Perhaps as usual she ran away from harships to a complete idealistic and reckless journey.
She's a child and i think she's like a cargo goes with the one tooks her. I think if everything would went well and Brera's not her brother then she probably gots together with him purely because now he's the one that pampers her.

[SethEng]

Originally Posted by Father Hentai

I don' t know if you skipped Biology in your classes but you just proof that you have very little knowledge about insects...

See as reference that insects (ants are also insects) do have a way of intelligence:
http://www.animalbehavioronline.com/insectbrains.html

You can compare the vajra with every insect who create colonies or hives. insects, ants, bees, wasps whatever. All these are comparable. And for the Vajra "brain". That part is in their belly not in their headpart.


This is now getting off topic. Do we have a thread for Vajra Discussion? Because I feel better to have this moved because this theme moves away from points to discuss about Ranka.

Oh no, you don't get off that easy. It's a nice Red Herring about the insect brains and all, but you're dodging the point and I just don't roll that way. We know from Episode 5 that the Vajra do not have a brain. This was explicitly stated in the series itself. In the same way, it was explicitly stated that the Vajra were a hive mind. This doesn't mean they make hives, this means that they share a collective consciousness. The Vajra don't have a sense of individuality, they're all part of one whole. This kind of thing shows up in Sci-Fi all the time and if you need a reference, you can look up the bugs from Starship Troopers or Warhammer 40k's Tyranids. It's not about building hives, it's about how they think and function.

Also, the reason I picked the Japanese Giant Hornet was very specific. http://www.cracked.com/article_15816...-in-world.html This is probably the best write up as to why I made that comparison. It has nothing to do with bug brains or the lack there of, but how they operate.

Of course, your response has nothing to do with the claim that was made, which was that the Vajra were peaceful. I've simply been pointing out that that was not the case. I'm not arguing about insect biology, but how the Vajra work. This is actually important to Ranka because she was the one they tried to communicate through. Unfortunately, like a lot of other things, she failed at that and it wasn't until Sheryl started giving off Fold Waves that there was any really meaningful communication at all.

[germanturkey]

it pains me to see Lacus used in the same sentence as Ranka..

[Father Hentai]

Originally Posted by Tak

Moreover, this statement alone is a contradiction to your earlier statement regarding Ranka knowing nothing about Berera's intentions in taking her on a far away trip.

- Tak

Because she starts to trust Brera does not automatically mean that she told her plans. Moreover whether your opinion is right, neither is mine. We don' t have any scenes which proves your or my statement. Fact is that Brera was prepared for a fold journey.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by Father Hentai

Because she starts to trust Brera does not automatically mean that she told her plans. Moreover whether your opinion is right, neither is mine. We don' t have any scenes which proves your or my statement. Fact is that Brera was prepared for a fold journey.

So you are basically still arguing that Berera is a psychic. Ok.

But why avoid the question? Hmm? You want to believe that my opinion is wrong, then please provide the proper evidence to support your own thesis. By simply stating that you have no reason to believe my opinions without providing equal support of your own beliefs is hardly convincing.

If Ranka is not to go with Berera, then who was she supposed to go with? Throughout that whole scene, Ranka did not even pop the question to Alto. She knew she was not to go with him anyway.

And even if she was to go with Alto, put yourself in the production teams' shoes and imagine just how absurd it would be to make that work.

- Tak

[Teletha]

Originally Posted by germanturkey

it pains me to see Lacus used in the same sentence as Ranka..

Me too. I could cry. No matter what you think of Lacus or Ranka, they are nothing at all alike.

But regarding Ranka's actions, I think most people would have been okay with what she did if she had to somehow pay the consequences for her actions. Lacus lost her father and her home doing what she did (and she had a plan). Ranka lost... what exactly? Nothing.