[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 5 End of the golden witch

[MeoTwister5]

Oh shit thank you Klash for destroying my happy state of denial. Looks like I won't be sleeping in peace later tonight.

I sort of accepted her behavior but Bern is now on my Complete Bitch List.

Summary time! This summary could otherwise be entitled "The Breaking of Ushiromiya Natsuhi."

Spoiler for Ep5 Summary:

- Narrator says that the third question of the mystery would be to know what the motive is. For a third-rate mystery it is not needed to be revealed.
- Natsuhi is placed on house arrest with everyone supporting Erika. Erika asks them what they think (?) is her motive for murder. She thinks it is for her to assume control of the fortune.
- She produces some of Natsuhi's diaries from her room. It details the issues of the family register and is a type of locked diary (ones you use keys to open). Natsuhi makes an unfinished comment on her privacy, but Eva saying she's the murderer says she's not entitled to it.
- Erika starts to read. She begins with the special cicumstances of Natsuhi and Krauss marriage. She says their marriage was niether love nor arranged but rather like hostage-taking.
- Erika says Natsuhi considered herself a hostage under the thw family under the pretense of a bride. She turns to Kumasawa who knows about this arrangement.
- Kumasawa admits knowing of this. She and Nanjo explain how Kinzo rampaged his way through the financial world, toppling his enemies and taking over companies. Natsuhi's family was one of those enemies. Apparently she was given as a "gift" to Kinzo as a bride for Krauss by her Shinto priest family. (I may have understood this wrong.)
- Erika says their story coincides with the diary. She asks her to admit this.
- Natsuhi says it was so at first, but Krauss did not treat her like a hostage. He felt for her and fell in love with her (?).
- Erika reads on from her diary, saying Natsuhi felt miserable and humiliated with his affections instead. Natsuhi says she only wrote that due to powerful feelings of anxiety etc. Erika says her claim is not on the diary.
- Erika claims she has an excess dislike for her husband. Natsuhi says she loved him. Erika says you can support this claim with evidence. Natsuhi says you cannot have evidence in a claim of love.
- Erika says you cannot truly believe anything without red truth. If you cannot say I Love You in red then it means nothing. Erika goes on to mock the concept of love between man and woman.
- Natsuhi calls Erika a pitiable person who has not been loved. Erika says love is unnecessary for a detective. Natsuhi says what she wrote were only temporary feelings and that she wanted to apologize to him. She claims even if her feelings cannot be said in red, they are still true. (Hell yes woman!)
- Erika asks if she concedes. Eva agrees now.
- Natsuhi asks Eva if there was a time she even said bad things about Hideyoshi. Eva is irate and demands she apologize.
- Erika stops them and claims Natsuhi's feelings of anger were pent up over the years until she felt need for revenge.
- Natsuhi narrates how she sealed up those hateful memories of the past and regretted never destroying them.
- The narrator described how everyone seems convinced she was the killer and how she continues to deny it all. No one accepts her claims to loving Krauss. Nanjo and Kumasawa says such a reaction was expected.
- Rudolph thinks she was also a victim of Kinzo's past actions. Gohda regrets he could do nothing.
- Battler seems almost at a loss at being forced to accept her as the killer. Erika reminds him how he wanted to believe it was someone else. Some text I can't decipher.
- Erika restates the issue of Kinzo exiting the mansion through the third floor window. Some text about it I can't get sorry. I think she still has a grudge for that loss.
- A huge chunk of text abot Kinzo and Natsuhi. Very hard to understand.
- Erika is entertaining the notion that Kinzo may be a possible killer/accomplice in this. Erika is challenging her to implicate Kinzo in all this. To clear her name perhaps?
- Natsuhi refuses to drag his name into the mud of the murders. She refuses to consider him or herself the culprit.
- Erika says with this all alibis but hers are proven. Natsuhi tells her to do what she wants, because she and God knows she's innocent and will be proven thus eventually.
- Narrator descibes how she refuses to silly Kinzo's name and refuses to call him a murderer outright. Narrator speaks about how the truth is being spun, and how a good person is recorded in history after their death (?) as bad.
- Erika says without anyone left suspicion falls on Natsuhi. Narrator speaks of fantasy with Kinzo, as he is already proclaimed in red as dead before all this started.
- Wtih Kinzo dead the issue of his "escape" from the study is now pointless. This was Erika's only way to erase the disgrace of that defeat. It comes out as a victory for her instead.
- In the cathedral, Battler's pierced body stands alone as Beato has disappeared as well as the family members. Only the witches and Natsuhi remain. The final issue it seems is Kinzo's status.
- Natsuhi says he is alive and well. Lambda says in red that in past games Kinzo's been dead before the start.
- Bern says it is uninteresting if it were to end with the red and says Natsuhi should admit her defeat instead.
- Bern asks what exactly is Kinzo's status. She says he could have escaped his room.
- Bern says in red that Kinzo's been in the same room all night between 12mn and morning. Lambda asks if she thinks he's alive and such. Bern says she never meant that he was actually alive, though Natsuhi insists he is.
- Bern says in red that Kinzo's existence is only in the mansion. Erika says she searched all over and found no trace of Kinzo. Again by her detective right there is no clue she cannot find.
- Natsuhi says after he left he could have just hid inside the mansion due to the rain.
- Back in the real world, Erika and Rudolph says they could find no trace of Kinzo in the third floor. Natsuhi suggests he could be underground.
- Erika and Eva says they searched and found no one. Erika again asks her to admit Kinzo's location.
- Natsuhi suggests the 1st and second floors. Kyrie says she searched the first floor and found no one. Erika again demands she reveal.
- Natsuhi agan insists on the first floor and says she cannot know where he is. Erika thinks she is really hiding something. The servants who know of his true status are getting nervous.
- Bern says in red that Kinzo cannot be in places other than the residence. He is not in the third floor, not underground, not on the first floor, and the second floor is the lats place in the house that he can possibly be. Lambda says he must be on the second then.
- Natsuhi tells them she cannot answer this. Bern tells Erika to get everyone and start searching the second floor.
- They begin searching and Erika mocks her for the hiding places. She again says she doesn't know. They both seem to know already that Kinzo's already dead. The narrator says that because he must be in the house, he will definitely be in the last room they check. This last room is Natshi's room.
- Bern says in red that Kinzo does not exist in any room aside from Natsuhi's room.
- Natsuhi shows everyone into her room. She says they should take a lokk to find noone inside.
- Erika mocks her by saying maybe he escaped through the window again. She again reiterates he must be here,
- Bern says it is time for checkmate. Lambda reiterates in red that between 12mn and morning he was not in any other place but Natsuhi's room.
- Bern again offers the plea for Natsuhi to just declare Kinzo as the culprit. She mocks her to save her own skin by disgracing the name of Kinzo. She says that way Natsuhi will become a tragic heroine accused falsely of murder.
- Natsuhi will not back down and says he is innocent.
- Bern says in red that Kinzo is not anywhere else in the room except her bed.
- Erika and the family now go to check her room. She says not to check the bed (DUNDUNDUNDUN!)
- Erika claims that when Kinzo escaped went to find shelter in the bed in her room.
- Bern declares in red that between 12mn and morning, the room Kinzo was in was Natsuhi's room inside her bed. She likewise went to bed in an identical bed that night. (They were in the same bed?)
- Bern surmises in blue that Kinzo and Natsuhi were "more" than friends (WTF?). Guess what a man and a woman sharing a bed/pillow do? (Yes you heard that right, can someone please dear god please confirm this?).
- Natsuhi goes batshit furious at this insinuation and attacks Eva (?). Erika insists on this relationship.
- If you are wondering what Bern meant, she meant it as she did: Natsuhi and Kinzo had hot, raunchy old man and middle aged woman sex. God help us all.
- Erika even says Natsuhi is using her body to use Kinzo.
- Bern and Lambda giggle at her and again insist she give up. Natsuhi again says this is the last task Kinzo had given her, to protect the family name.
- Bern says in red that the real Kinzo never gave her such orders, not even once.
- Natsuhi falls on the floor screaming. I surmise she is finally broken.
- Lambda declares Bern the victor. Bern says she will now state the truth of this sad, little story. Evil Giggles galore.
- Black and white flashback. It summarizes like a trial outline what the trial "revealed", icluding pages and stuff. Basically it states the truths that Erika and Bern's side insisted, including the "sexual relationship" between Kinzo and Natsuhi (blegh). This report says that Natsuhi assumed the identity of Beato to start the legend. It then details that she found the secret gold at midnight on October 4, 1986 and because of the resulting uproar between siblings, schemed the murders.
- She was then supposed to have killed Genji who opposed. Krauss was also murdered in his room. She then would wait at the second floor room of the children and murder the 4. She leaves the guesthouse after 3am and returned to her room where Kinzo was and remained there until morning.
- Kinzo is to have left the room in the morning and hid in the guesthouse and carried off the bodies of the six who have not been discovered. She failed to pin this on Battler (?).
- She would later hide in the closet in the guest room and kills Hideyoshi who came at 1pm and hides herself again when the family arrives. Her button was discovered there later. She would be caught returning to her room by Erika.
- This Trial outline ends with an address to the trial court tribunal.

Spoiler for Red Text:

- In past games Kinzo's been dead before the start.
- Kinzo's been in the same room all night between 12mn and morning.
- Kinzo cannot be in places other than the residence. He is not in the third floor, not underground, not on the first floor, and the second floor is the lats place in the house that he can possibly be.
- Kinzo does not exist in any room aside from Natsuhi's room.
- Between 12mn and morning he was not in any other place but Natsuhi's room.
- Kinzo is not anywhere else in the room except her bed.
- The real Kinzo never gave her such orders, not even once.

Spoiler for Blue Text:

- Bern surmises in blue that Kinzo and Natsuhi were "more" than friends (WTF?). Guess what a man and a woman sharing a bed/pillow do? (Yes you heard that right, can someone please dear god please confirm this?).

Yep, you read that Blue Text right. May god have mercy on us all.

Edit - BTW this is not the end of Ep5 proper yet. I'm thinking there's only a little bit more ways to go before it ends. Also, no news on the real status of MetaBattler, and I'm assuming we won't know of his true fate until the end of Ep5 proper.

[Volcanic]

...

*almost barfs* That's kinda creepy if I do say so myself.

Spoiler for EP5:

I am beginning to think that Bern is a troll incarnate. Dropping crazy theories on us. Lamba and maybe Erika too. Everything they say in blue is lies to throw Battler- and us- off!

Not only is Erika the embodiment of the severely Anti-Fantasy fanbase, but she's also one of three embodiments of the Trolls who give out fake spoilers, (ie: EP4, Jessica killed herself with an umbrella) with Bern and Lamba as the other two!

[kagato3]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

1) Cornelia just repeats the red confirmed by Bern. Therefore, Cornerla just had to remind Beato's rule that "red" is always the truth.
This isn't an evidence provided by Erika, but rather by Bern.

The thing is no one ever sees Krauss corpse meaning that the only way Erika has to prove he is dead is through a supernatural source. That violates Knox article 2 since she is the detective. Until she can prove Krauss is dead through a non-supernatural source he still has no albi.

[Klashikari]

That wasn't proved by Erika. Like I said, it was Bern's doing, which Erika can use afterwards in the trial.
Witches aren't restricted by knox commandements and can give red if needed by their respective party. Natsuhi refused to push the guilt on Krauss and Bern took this opportunity to confirm and crush her at the same time: Krauss was killed right after the phone call.

Again, none of Erika or her furniture exposed that, but since Bern confirmed it already, they can use it.

[Marina2]

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

One long summary from me today, but a freaking fast-paced one with a... shocking cliffhanger twist. I may or may not have shit myself seeing it.

Spoiler for Ep5 MAJOR Summary:

This scene begins with Battler's counterattack attempt and ends with... well... see for yourself.

Battler Counteroffensive
- In the room, Eva openly accuses Natsuhi of murder. Natsuhi continues to deny. Erika declares her a criminal.
- Eva grabs Natsuhi and starts hitting her. They start fighting. Battler intervenes. He gets hit by Eva. Eva continues to beat her and no one bothers to stop it.
- It seems they all accepted Erika's truth and accept Eva's anger-driven rage. No one seems to believe her any longer.
- Erika says she's discovered two of the three mysteries. For the last she wants her to confess. Natsuhi rambles about Krauss being taken hostage etc. but it seems no one's listening.
- Beato in spirit form screams that she as the witch is the real culprit. Erika apparently notices her and says that the verdict is decided and that she's but a mere fantasy.

Can anyone tell me the name of song used in this part of summary?

[kagato3]

The fact that it was Bern confirmed it and none of Erika or her furniture exposed makes it violate Knox article 2. Bern is a supernatural source and the whole trial was brought up because Erika claims Natsuhi is the only one that has no albi. Until Erika has a way to prove that Krauss doesn't have an albi, nor does Kinzo since she had been unable to prove his state of health this is untrue. So she is useing the red text to confrim her hunch this means she is breaking rule 6 (No accident must ever help the detective, nor must he ever have an unaccountable intuition which proves to be right) or 2 (no supernatural source). The red can only be used as a validated truth; it cannot be used as a method to ascertain said truth via an investigation to validate itself. Therefore, a truth exists only in it's complete and validated form. It must have been validated by some other, none-red means.

[Klashikari]

Huh no, absolutely not.
The red can be used as a rogue "supernatural" assertion without any need for proof regarding witches.
It is from the very same premise that Beato can confirm things against Erika (there is no way Erika could figure out that none of Krauss, Natsuhi or Genji were related to the knock) or Lambda confirming all ingots are for real.

The thing is that confirming Krauss' death doesn't help Erika one bit because:
1) she doesn't even consider Krauss as a possible candidate, unlike kinzo.
2) Natsuhi claims he is definitely not the culprit, despite she could switch the guilt on him.

The witches are out of the loop regarding the knox rules. That is what Lambda and Bern said when Battler used "Ushiromiya Natsuhi is not the culprit!". A red must have proof to back up its value when a human uses it. But for witch, they simply don't need to give any proof.

The trial was made unfair to begin with.

[luckyssol]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

The thing is that confirming Krauss' death doesn't help Erika one bit because:
1) she doesn't even consider Krauss as a possible candidate, unlike kinzo.
2) Natsuhi claims he is definitely not the culprit, despite she could switch the guilt on him.

This is false. The confirmation of Krauss's death was used to elimnate the sixth bulleted item:
屋敷の蔵臼にも犯行が可能ではないか？

Originally Posted by Klashikari

The witches are out of the loop regarding the knox rules. That is what Lambda and Bern said when Battler used "Ushiromiya Natsuhi is not the culprit!". A red must have proof to back up its value when a human uses it. But for witch, they simply don't need to give any proof.

The trial was made unfair to begin with.

I agree on this. A supernatural agent, such as a witch, can act as a truth confirmer AFTER the facts have been presented.

Don't you think it's absolutely ridiculous the way Erika behaves less than a day after falling off a boat? How can anyone claim her behavior is normal? You can try to justify her hunches by saying she is just a great detective or possesses a superior intelect but that is just not common sense.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by Ssol

This is false. The confirmation of Krauss's death was used to elimnate the sixth bulleted item:
屋敷の蔵臼にも犯行が可能ではないか？

That's right, but like I said, Lambda and Bern let Natsuhi and Beatrice decide for the possibility regarding Krauss being the culprit. Of course, Beatrice was cornered because she wants to safeguard Natsuhi, but the latter cannot let Krauss being branded as a murderer.
And when Natsuhi declared she cannot do that and that Beatrice follows her lead, we got this confirmation, then Bern smashes her with "that's right, Ushiromiya Krauss cannot be the culprit. He was killed right after the phone call, you see?"
Natsuhi collapses in sorrow afterwards.

I'm pretty sure it happened like this, unless my memories fizzled that bad.

Don't you think it's absolutely ridiculous the way Erika behaves less than a day after falling off a boat? How can anyone claim her behavior is normal? You can try to justify her hunches by saying she is just a great detective or possesses a superior intelect but that is just not common sense.

I do as well, but it is still "possible". Of course, that a 15-16 years old detective being washed out on Rokkenjima is way too convenient.
But that's the basic concept of Lambda and Bern highjacking the gameboard. To begin with, it is ridiculous for adults like the Ushiromiya to let a little girl roaming that freely after the crimes. Her detective status was guaranted for the meta world with the red truth, but that's another story for the gameboard.

Erika is simple a rogue piece that works in Beato's game within the very extreme limits. It is purely for sake of disrupting the game, not to stay "faithful" to Beato's game.

[Antera Caramichael]

I think I found the origines of Gertrude and maybe Cornellia but I'm not very sure...

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

Huh no, absolutely not.
The witches are out of the loop regarding the knox rules. That is what Lambda and Bern said when Battler used "Ushiromiya Natsuhi is not the culprit!". A red must have proof to back up its value when a human uses it. But for witch, they simply don't need to give any proof.

Unless, of course, that's a lie. Not having the red perfectly translated makes it hard to guess, but is any of the red actually directly self-contradictory?

Erika seems to be saying, with the help of red, "Natsuhi has no alibi and everyone else has one;" from there, she's making the assertion that Natsuhi is the killer.

Battler says, in red, that Natsuhi isn't a criminal. But technically those two lines of red don't contradict each other; Bern's side is making an approach on Natsuhi as the culprit, and Battler has stated she isn't the culprit. That doesn't mean the red is contradictory; it means the reasoning following from Bern/Erika's red is wrong.

I think all this trial and Knox nonsense is being used as a smokescreen. Red has to be backed up or it isn't true? Who says? Beatrice never said that. Oh, only when humans use it? What about Battler and Ange in ep4?

Yeah, sorry, not buying it. So far as I can tell red is red, and so far I haven't seen anything in these summaries that convinces me otherwise. All the evidence points to Natsuhi, but she didn't do it. Unless there's red text that is, in fact, directly contradictory, I don't buy these "extra rules."

EDIT: Oh and in ep4, Battler tried to say something in red that wasn't true and couldn't. Beatrice (maybe) tried to do the same and likewise failed. You can't say something in red if it isn't true. Even if it isn't "valid" for the purpose of Lambda's kangaroo court, it's true.

[Klashikari]

All the extra rules wouldn't make any sense if they weren't red themselves, but they were.
In a way, you can expect it to be already deviant since it was Lambda and Bern asking for them, not Beato.

Even Battler himself was taken aback by his unability to smash Erika's assertion despite the red truth doesn't need any proof by itself.
Consequently, it was rather a "sub-game" with non explicit restriction in order to bring up a anti fantasy theory to the "court".
By itself, the previous games didn't need any court format at all: beato and battler were just arguing case by case.

You would generally brush off Lambda and Bern excuses if they were applied to the other games, but Episode 5 didn't have the same premises at all. So it was working on a anti fantasy premise from start to finish, with the introduced restrictions: Knox Commandements. In a way, these are rules that were forcefully introduced, a bit like Beato claiming "only Ushiromiya Battler can take part of my game", despite there was nothing that was setting this in stone.
This is why Episode 5 is so different to actually give another ground for theories and the like. Thus, Mystery VS Anti Fantasy.

[Renall]

But don't Knox's rules apply only to "the detective?" I thought Erika was the detective. I thought that was said in red.

[Klashikari]

No, all commandements applied to the game (such like N°1 etc).
Certainly, many of them are exclusively applied to the detective, but the wording is different for some of them. Again, you cannot use the original commandements, since Ryukishi tailored them as he sees fit.

Commandement 8 doesn't involve the detective's conclusion. It is general:
提示されない手がかりでの解決を禁ず。
The solution provided without any clue/proof is prohibited.

It is NOT only applied to the detective, but it is a general rule.

[Renall]

Still not buying it. There's a gaping hole somewhere in this process and I'm sure I could find it if I could understand the text itself. Working from a summary isn't getting anywhere. Then again, maybe Battler will show his worth later in the episode and find it for me? Either way, I don't buy it and I'm perfectly willing to consider Battler's red true even if it isn't allowed in the "trial."

Like, they say his solution is "prohibited," but that's meaningless. A solution can be true without being "permissible." It's basically the same thing as excluding evidence. If a drug trial turns on whether drugs were found, but the drugs were illegally seized and got excluded from evidence, then there aren't any drugs to present. That doesn't change the truth that there were drugs, it just makes it inadmissible to claim they exist or show them.

So it's true but not allowed. That doesn't make it untrue.

EDIT: A better example might be if I interview a witness and he tells me another person did it, but when I want to call that witness to testify at trial, he refuses to testify. I know another person did it (assuming the witness was credible or had some reliable explanation), but I can't raise that claim at trial because I don't have a witness to call.

[Klashikari]

I never said it was "not true", I said: he was unable to use it to turn the tide of the trial, because he had to go through the 8th commandement: the solution provided without any clue/proof is forbidden.
Battler is a player and a human piece. As a human, he cannot rely on supernatural means and must provide evidence, even if he could use something that "should not need" any. Because of his status at that given time, he was unable to do anything.

Bern and Lambda didn't deny his red truth, but stated it cannot be accepted unless he CAN supplement it with proofs.
That's the issue with Knox 8 which isn't affecting the witches. This is also why Gaap and the 7 sisters' red aren't denied, since they are in the witch's side. And when Battler used the golden truth, it just break knox 8.

This is just like this.

[Used Can]

I don't see much of a problem with the use of the red. Bern's side never made a claim in red like "Natsuhi is the culprit". Erika did base most of her theories and statements with evidence. So, I can see why Battler's use of the red was denied. He was effectively cornered by Erika by pure deduction and logic, him using the red that way would have been completely unfair, after his own logic had failed.

Anyway, I'll try reposting my previous question again:

Originally Posted by Used Can

Anyway, a friend of mine sent me a quote that, according to him, was used in this episode:

Spoiler:

"The one who made someone weather eternal torture wasn't you... it was me! I made you stand up against terrible torture! And still, you stood until the end... while I continued complaining... And now... that I've finally climbed this mountain... you're not waiting... any more. You've slipped from my grasp..."

Was it actually used? If it was, when was it used?

[Renall]

But doesn't knowing that Natsuhi isn't the culprit rather derail the inevitable end of the trial? They'll never be able to say in red that she is the culprit. At best they'll be able to make a claim. If Lambda were "playing fair" like Beatrice, she'd have to get a blue presented by Bern or Erika and then shoot it down (or confirm it) in red. She's not going to be able to do that, because Natsuhi is innocent. So what's the point of continuing the trial to begin with besides torturing Natsuhi? It's going to end with as vague a conclusion as a real-world investigation and trial of Natsuhi would. It might "convict" her, but it isn't going to prove anything.

Spoiler for Battler's Motive at the End:

Although this is perhaps Battler's point at the end of the episode. Things that don't approach the truth are worthless, however convincing they may be.

EDIT: And also I'm pretty sure you don't even need Battler's red to confirm Natsuhi's innocence, although I'd wait on the translation of a couple lines to say that for certain.

[Used Can]

Originally Posted by Renall

But doesn't knowing that Natsuhi isn't the culprit rather derail the inevitable end of the trial?

I think, perhaps, it'd be better if you think of it as a maths problem in a test. You may write the correct answer, but if you've skipped the process and you just wrote the answer, you're not getting a passing grade.

If you take the trial into account, all of Battler's theories were proved wrong, whereas Erika's were proved right. He was effectively defeteated in a battle of detectives. Him using the red like that was no longer part of a battle between detectives. He should have shown how he got to that.

[Klashikari]

... That's why I said from the VERY beginning the trial was unfair, but subject to consistent rules.
From the beginning, they didn't go through the usual "red VS blue" thing like how it happened in Episode 4.
Lambda's reason for this is absolutely not possible to confirm, you can wild guess it as a personal agenda, but that's it. Bern might have as well a double agenda, but as shown during the game, she just wanted to end it quickly regardless if the truth asserted by Erika was really the truth, or just an interpretation of the evidences that cannot be countered unless someone else provide an equivalent truth.

This is why I explained why Battler was stuck for this element. I really don't get your point Renall. Really.

EDIT: using Used Can interpretation, it is also something that the witches wouldn't want to happen: if everything could be swiped with the red, then it would be finished right from the open without an actual "entertaintement". As they became "real" player, they added extra rules in order not to bike themselves with the easy way.
In the previous games, Battler was not on an even footing but could go around the red truth. But Between lambda and bern, it is not the case, so extra rules should be added in order not to leave things totally out of control.
If there wasn't any court system, Bern would just smash Lambda easily being a witch.