Claymore Chapter 97

[Cyclone]

I'll try to reply without restarting the debate too.

Originally Posted by Ryus

What I don't get: I was very clear that I believed Priscilla had a chance of having the potential to win. Since you believed this too, why didn't you just say so from the beginning? Or did you Flip-flop? Since, If you believed she just had a 30% odds of winning... why didn't you say so?

To say Priscilla had no chance of winning would force me to ignore my least favorite 2 page spread in all of Claymore. Obviously the chance wasn't 0%
The question I was arguing was solely which of the 2 was stronger. I believe that in the long run they would have been closely matched. (I still think even after that Teresa would be a little stronger - but feel free to disagree).

I like your conviction but not for this one line of dialog... it is misplaced.

What I don't get: Why is this your main point now? Practically the whole site disagreed with you on this point. You read our responses, so you know why we don't agree.

To clear up my thoughts for point two: We all know very well Teresa has lied before... Why bring this up? We also know she was think of Clare at the time... not you belief. I don't get how this is now the fulcrum of your argument.

The number of people who disagree with me doesn't affect what I precieve the truth to be. The only way to convince me is with counter-proof. There have been some fairly valid claims - like from Aimless - that there is a bit of bravado in that statement, and I can concede that point. There probably was.
The rest of the arguments were, frankly, not convincing. You know that I know the manga inside out and back to front just like most of you guys, so the points you guys brought up were already carefully considered into my opinions, and I tried to explain to you guys why I thought the way I do. Quite simply I cannot believe the words of Irene since she said she mis-judged Teresa's power, nor can I believe Rubel from whom and his ilk Teresa was actively hiding her powers. I simply don't find them credible to pass this judgement. So I tacked on the words and thoughts from the only remaining credible source - Teresa - and came up with the opposite conclusion from you guys.

As for Teresa lying - I believe her when she said she doesn't lie if she doesn't need to. Did she need to here? I don't think so - saying nothing was an option afterall. So when Teresa speaks, I'm more likely to believe her than Irene or Rubel.

Well, I'm sorry you didn't get the joke. In a previous post you declared victory with giant red letters after Shieky said he was going to bed. I then responded and played with the idea that that was a load of crap (pardon my language) and you were acting childish. So I posted a joke that you were showing it off like a just potty trained kid does with there poop... example Kid: "Look what I did mommy!" Mommy: *Gags "That's nice dear. I'm SO proud of you... Your now a Big Boy."

I carried it over in the discussion every time I thought you were doing the same thing. So it wasn't a "nick name" so much as calling you for a bad point that you seemed to believe was the self-evident truth.

Oh I got the reference - it was fine for the response for the post it was replying to - afterall, I was purposely acting childish in that one. To carry over to here though was a bit unwelcome though (it was not the fact I'm tall that bothered me).

But I should appologize too - I used stronger words than I should have and was rude. I'm sorry for that, and any offense I caused.

What I don't get: Yes, Yagi has given us an Abyssal Priscilla fought... actually 2 of them. And one that Teresa fought. Later in this post you tell me "Fine - be selective about which quote you find inconvenient and discard. Like I care." Yet, you discarded my part of the post that talked about Priscilla's fight with HellCat Beth and Teresa's fight with Rosemary. I thought I did a good job with it... did you ignore it for a reason? Why would you accuse me of ignore stuff when you knew you did the same?

I won't talk about the rest... we have discussed it already too many times.

I consider the fights with Abyssals to be irrelevant to who is stronger between the Teresa and Pricilla, and that was really the only point I was interested in arguing. Both Priscilla and Teresa are far stronger than any Abyssal One. I consider that established fact but of little relevance directly to the Teresa/Priscilla debate (though I do suspect we may have to include Raciella into this above AO level category).

Furthermore I have always thought comparing Claymore anyone vs Awakened someone else was a bit of a fallacy. If we're going to compare, then I'm only really interested in Claymore vs Claymore or AB vs AB. We already know how Claymore Teresa vs AB Priscilla ended. The interesting thing to me is Claymore Teresa vs Experienced Claymore Priscilla or AB Teresa vs AB Priscilla.

Well, if it makes you feel better the truth is you'd likely beat me in a game of 'go'. It's been a long time since I played.

Oh, I don't know about that - today's games with Aimless were my first games in probably almost 2 years. Let's just say my ranking theory held true - I didn't really stand a chance If you want we can play sometime and find out.

[Joe_fh]

Thanks for the warm welcom guys.
I must say this discussions seems really fun.
and thanks HegemonKhan for whose explanations.

Originally Posted by Ryus

In fact most of us have rated her at around Isley level AO (give or take), when most of us have ranked Rosemary as one of the weakest #1s in the story.

Teresa had to release 10% too move faster than Rosemary could follow. When Priscilla did it constantly with no release... Hell, Priscilla even got Beth to stab herself by her sheer speed.

Oh... yes I know Priscilla eye's don't glow at 10% yoki now that she's awakened. However you can tell she hasn't released yoki since Priscilla didn't sense her... only guessed her presence via Alicia's present condition. Then, through out the fight Priscilla didn't use any awakened limbs or have energy blasts around her. So it's safe to say she hasn't released her yoki yet.

I'd like to pint out that we actually don't know how strong Rosemary was due to the fact that the only time we saw her figthing was the time she was fighting with Tereas and I believe we all know we can't really compare Terasa to the abyssals. From what we've been told every time a No1 awakens it earns the status of an abyssal one and all of them have almost an qual amount of power and there's no reason to believe otherwise. So at least for me Rosemary was on par with all the rest powerwise. That's at least if you follow the logic so far.

Same goes for Noel, Irene and Sophia since we only saw them in action for a short time and they were fignting Teresa and the awakened Pricilla so it's only natural for them to look weak. I mean Prissy and Teresa can kill an Abyssal one without much effort so it's only natural for those 3 to look sort of week. If we see another flashback that shows them fighting an AB or something else we might compare No2,3 and 4 to the new ones but otherwise it will be just guessing

Now the power level of an awakened Beth should be again on par with the abyssal ones and Alicia But she isn't in a normal awakened state since her consciousness seems to have transfere in Alicia thus the comment by Riful about taking turns. So from all of this I think Beth's awakened body wend out of control and since it's not thinking even if it has the same power as the other abyssals it should be weaker. But then again that's just a theory.
And since Ruful indeed didn't sense Prissy I agree with what you said about her not using any yoki.

About the whole debate Pricilla vs Teresa I don't think there's enough clear evidence to support a claim that one of them is definitely stronger since we never saw Terasa in an awaekened form going all out and we never saw Pricialla in a normal state of mind going all out as well. That will be cleared up only if we knwo they're both at the peak of their stregth and using their full power to duke it out and we wno't see that thus it becomes just an argument without any solid proof. (don't kill me for that though ) Also it's clearly shown that when someone releases 10% more yoki their power grows a lot more than with +10% . Each time you increase the numbers the power levels change a lot mroe and since it was never really said how much we can only speculate.
Which in it's own right fun

On topic so even the original translation says "that man" and there's no chance for it to be "that person" ? The way I see it the only obvious choice in this case would be Raki since I believe Isley will be useless to her in this situation. It could be someone else which we can't think of right now. Oh and I also think that Prissy still remembers everything that happened during those ears. She just regained her destrucitve nature and became sane and confident not like her previous self(before awakening).

[Anima]

Loyal soldiers of the Army of Teresa.
* Salute

I am a bit late so I wont be dragging things any longer.

[Sleepy Speculator]

I'm of the opinion that Priscilla being older looking was, because she fed, not just on kitties, but on all those silly villagers that got in the way, the kitties may be awakened beings, but there simply not that strong, to be able to play around with Priscilla. Raki was also fighting but after being wounded could only watch helplessly as Priscilla fed on everything. The 'that scent' or whatever should logically be something different, since Priscilla left Raki's company at this point chasing something else...

[Gooral]

Originally Posted by evil_kenshin

Ahh but let me add a few more cards on the table.

Teresa was not the eye of her generation and Priscilla's unique ability (as per the databooks) is yoki suppression.

Theoretically could we not say that Teresa failed to detect Priscilla's full power?

Nope. Teresa could measure Priscilla's power accurately because Priscilla released her youki and stopped her suppression.

Originally Posted by SagaraSouske

Teresa wasn't measuring Priscilla's youki level. She was measuring her potential. Youki lvl is not everything in claymore fights. Skill and tactic also play important roles. What Teresa is saying is that, given enough time, Priscilla will become as equally skilled and develop abilities that will rival her own.

lol
Can you measure someone's potential just after one fight? Don't think so. In claymore's case the potential could only be measured by measuring youki level (other factors would be irrelevant since it's youki that gives supernatural abilities to claymores) and Teresa could do that only after she made that comment. Is it that hard to understand? Once she grasped Priscilla's strength it became obvious to her she will defeat her every time. I'm of the opinion that when she said: "I may be able to beat her now but next time who knows" she was referring to her 0% youki release, she was that conceited. Otherwise it would be ridiculous to think that she could wipe the floor with [70,80)% Priscilla and Priscilla would somehow become many times stronger after awakening compared to her 80% and at the same time Teresa could increase her strength only to a minimal degree (her 10% > Priscilla's 80% but Priscilla's 100% > Teresa's 100% => Teresa had very low power increase, which is ludicrous).

I don't think Teresa is an eye. Her abilities are not wide area focused like Galatea's was. Clare still has a ways to go even compare to Galatea before Pieta. Now only does Galatea have more range, she can also sense far more detail.

Well, we don't know exactly how good of an eye Teresa could be. If Clare could serve as any indication of Teresa's abilities then she could even rival Galatea in that area (assuming that Teresa would be even better than Clare). After all Teresa sensed Rafaela that started suppressing her aura. We don't know how much time exactly it is needed to become a ghost nor how much time elapsed between Luciella's incident and encountering Teresa by Rafaela. What we know however is that natural suppression is much more effective than suppression on pills (Galatea couldn't sense the ghosts but she could sense Miata and Clarice on pills). So even if Rafaela wasn't completely cloaked the fact alone that Teresa (undeveloped at that, we know that for an eye to be skilled they need time, that's why they didn't replace Galatea with Renee immediately) could sense her means she had talent to be an eye.

Originally Posted by Ryus

(...) Practically the whole site disagreed with you on this point. You read our responses, so you know why we don't agree.

So? Argument of a "Billions flies can't be mistaken. Let's eat shit" sort.

To sum up. Everyone agrees that Teresa at 10%-29% (more like 10% because of words "just enough") was stronger than Priscilla at 79%, yet some people still think that Priscilla was stronger than Teresa. All of it is based on what Teresa said before she even had a chance to measure Priscilla's strength (and we don't know what she really meant by that, maybe she was afraid of her ninja abilities and sneak attack or she was referring to her 0% youki release). The problem with accepting it is mentioned above Teresa's domination over Priscilla. It would not only mean Priscilla was such a strange creature that was very weak at 80% youki release (compared to her awakened state) and once she awakened she got exponentially stronger but also that Teresa sucked as an AB and would have logarithmic increase. To me it's ridiculous to think that way. There is no indication of that. Yeah, yeah, I know, "but Teresa said so herself". No, she said nothing of the sort. In addition, do we even know Teresa knew her OWN strength? Because somehow I doubt she knew her limits and how strong she would be if she released, let's say 70% of her youki. It was the only way to know for sure how strong one could be. So it's not that strange Teresa didn't know she would defeat Priscilla. She released her youki only two times AFAWK and it was only a fragment of her power. If power increase was indeed exponential she would not know how much stronger she could become. The moment Priscilla released her youki and especially the moment Teresa responded to that with youki release she could make more accurate judgement.

[Defiled one]

As expected from Priscilla...I know how to pick a winner when I see one.

However, for someone as Priscilla to lie about amnésia, faking out weakness and pretenting to be all innocent to be near something that atracts her "Raki" while Clare tries, in vain, to caught up with a foe that seems...GOD-LIKE. "Insert Evil Laugh"

Now then, I could argue about pointless power levels. Nah, the present continues to show that PRISCILLA is the number one and I think Yagi agrees.

Being his first awakened and all.

[Arturro]

Originally Posted by Ryus

What I don't get: Why is this your main point now? Practically the whole site disagreed with you on this point. You read our responses, so you know why we don't agree.

This is the most funny "argument" I've read in this topic. First if "everybody" believe in something it's not means that "everybody" is right. For such "arguments" my answer is always like that: "Eat s*it, 50 biliards of flies couldn't be wrong!" . No offence intended.
Second Cyclone is not alone, untill you intend to completly ignore existence of GangstaSpanksta, Hegemonkhan, myself and a few other people. I'm just bored to repeating egain and again that all "in manga" statements about Priscilla potential being equal to Theresa had been said before anyone was able to measure and compare their respective strenght (yoki). After both Theresa and Priscilla released their yokis it was stated by Theresa, Irene and even organization said that Theresa is far stronger.
So far no one was able to refute that proof. Arguments like: "Before Priscilla and Theresa released their yoki Irene and Theresa was telling the truth, but after they sudenly started to lying." is just silly.

Edit: Gooral was faster, he even used same proverb as me

[evil_kenshin]

Originally Posted by Shiek927

The latter, it must be it.

I don't understand how people still think it could be Isley when Priscilla said she's been holding herself back. How and why could it be Isley? they aren't that close, and Isley wouldn't want her to stop eating, he'd want her to eat as many humans as possible so she remains his perfect weapon.

Raki said in the town that ever since they met, she hasn't been eating, that's all the proof in the world.

Actually Isley tended to agree with her, as even he said he was practically starving himself too (only eating the bare minimum of meals).

[irvinethearcher]

I don't understand why people now suddenly goe out like crazy and think priscilla is stronger or at least as strong as theresa was?
Priscilla used here, in a way like a politician who is in charge just before the election, her "scope of action".
Theresa is not in charge anymore, better said, she is already dead. So no one can say how strong an awakened theresa would have been even in her human form.
I always said that the assumption theresa or priscilla are as strong as 3 - 4 AO is totally ridiculous and has no solid base because some thing don't work with linear laws. Some people laughed at me when i said that a motivated priscilla could beat perhaps beat 100 AO all together at ones and that AO to priscilla are nothing else than those awakened beings for riful .
BUT that does not mean that theresa is now all of a sudden weaker than priscilla.
Theresa twisted rosemary's arm off as if it was a little dry branch of an old tree.
She did that without even releasing yoki in her weaker claymore form. We now that she loved to "scare" people so there is IMO an high probability that she toyed arround with rosemary and released her yoki ONLY to litterally "scare rosemary to death"

[Ryuken]

Priscilla had really become strong over the years, she is doing really well against kitty Beht, but I still don't think she is on par with Teresa yet, we would most probably find that out when she finally faces Clare.

[DragoZERO]

Originally Posted by Ryuken

Priscilla had really become strong over the years, she is doing really well against kitty Beht, but I still don't think she is on par with Teresa yet, we would most probably find that out when she finally faces Clare.

Wouldn't she have become weaker from not feeding and all??

[Ryuken]

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

Wouldn't she have become weaker from not feeding and all??

She would have most probably, but I don't think that's the case here. The reason being that she had also suppressed the urge for flesh which would eventually explode inside her once she is presented with the opportunity to feed, making her even stronger.

[elyK]

And the trench warfare resumes...

[Gangsta Spanksta]

Originally Posted by Sleepy Speculator

I'm of the opinion that Priscilla being older looking was, because she fed, not just on kitties, but on all those silly villagers that got in the way, the kitties may be awakened beings, but there simply not that strong, to be able to play around with Priscilla. Raki was also fighting but after being wounded could only watch helplessly as Priscilla fed on everything. The 'that scent' or whatever should logically be something different, since Priscilla left Raki's company at this point chasing something else...

Hey sleepy!!! We miss your speculation around here

[Gangsta Spanksta]

While I never completely denied the possibility that Priscilla could have the potential to someday surpass Teresa. What I took beef with was that 1) Some people were saying that the Manga said so. Not true. 2) There was this crazy argument going around that Prisiclla was at least as strong as Teresa would've been and at most stronger, when it very well could be that Priscilla's potential may have never reached Teresa's current strength. That is an assumption, since Teresa strength was underestimated. I have my own opinions and they do tend to favor Teresa, but I am a bit open minded about this. But anyway, my opinion has not shifted, because you can see it in various chapter threads before some of the other side even joined us that I've been saying that Teresa and Priscilla are in a tier of their own. It is not like I said that Priscilla isn't a monster, and well it would be illogical for Teresa to let a monster who is even somewhat weaker than her live. Case in point, just look at how Teresa died by cheap shot by then a monster who was weaker than her, where 10% of Teresa was stronger than 80% of Priscilla. It's like some would have you believe that someone weaker than you can't be a threat, that the only way that Teresa would've decided to decapitate someone is if they were stronger than her. And then there are various of points where people don't seem to know each other powers. Teresa usually is good at reading things like that, but has trouble with Priscilla.

[Shiek927]

Originally Posted by evil_kenshin

Actually Isley tended to agree with her, as even he said he was practically starving himself too (only eating the bare minimum of meals).

Yes, but who was the one who made them that way?

Not sure how you guys can continue without restarting the debate, but go ahead and try

I only gave a bare glance at your responses Gangsta; I am laughing though at your attempt to come up with excuses by saying I don't know if I'm talking to you or Cyclone. What, you can't just respond to what I say anymore? is this some attempt to evade the conversation? you think I'm that stupid?

I'm not gonna be baited that easily, not by something like that

Originally Posted by Sleepy Speculator View Post
I'm of the opinion that Priscilla being older looking was, because she fed, not just on kitties, but on all those silly villagers that got in the way, the kitties may be awakened beings, but there simply not that strong, to be able to play around with Priscilla. Raki was also fighting but after being wounded could only watch helplessly as Priscilla fed on everything. The 'that scent' or whatever should logically be something different, since Priscilla left Raki's company at this point chasing something else...

She seems to be talking in monologue, so even if she herself doesn't smell it anymore, she could simply be talking about it.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

Shieky, what am I supposed to think when you are using jabs based on something Cyclone said and I've never said? And besides that you were telling me in a very confusing manner of what I was saying that was shall we say: inaccurate. Your argument was all over the place, and with the telling me what you though I said but what I never said and all the half baked sarcasm, your point was lost somewhere.

[Shiek927]

Originally Posted by Gangsta Spanksta

Shieky, what am I supposed to think when you are using jabs based on something Cyclone said and I've never said? And besides that you were telling me in a very confusing manner of what I was saying that was shall we say: inaccurate. Your argument was all over the place, and with the telling me what you though I said but what I never said and all the half baked sarcasm, your point was lost somewhere.

.................................

I'm done, this debate has become a circus.

Have fun Ryus!

[DragoZERO]

Let's hope for an extra story chapter with more information about Teresa, right? lol.

[SagaraSouske]

Originally Posted by Gooral

lol
Can you measure someone's potential just after one fight? Don't think so. In claymore's case the potential could only be measured by measuring youki level (other factors would be irrelevant since it's youki that gives supernatural abilities to claymores) and Teresa could do that only after she made that comment. Is it that hard to understand? Once she grasped Priscilla's strength it became obvious to her she will defeat her every time. I'm of the opinion that when she said: "I may be able to beat her now but next time who knows" she was referring to her 0% youki release, she was that conceited. Otherwise it would be ridiculous to think that she could wipe the floor with [70,80)% Priscilla and Priscilla would somehow become many times stronger after awakening compared to her 80% and at the same time Teresa could increase her strength only to a minimal degree (her 10% > Priscilla's 80% but Priscilla's 100% > Teresa's 100% => Teresa had very low power increase, which is ludicrous).

May be you can't measure someone's potential in real life in such a short time, you can certainly do it in manga/anime medium - there is an example right here in my signature. Teresa wasn't measuring Priscilla's youki level because first, she can't since Priscilla is cloaked; second, when the specific kanji for potential is used, it does not mean youki but her latent talent and untapped capabilities. I don't think Teresa was conceited when she made that statement. She was very serious and analytical about her assessment of Priscilla. That assessment has put murderous thoughts in her mind to eliminate the threat Priscilla represents. You don't think like that when you are conceited.

Other factors are very relevant because just having a ton of youki does not automatically win fights. Otherwise claymores will never be able to hunt ABs. Combat skills and techniques in utilizing one's youki is just as important. I also think youki lvl increases as claymore gets more skilled and efficient at utilizing their youki. The fact that Riful wants to wait for claymores to become more powerful before awakening them, Clare's entire journey and her increase in youki level, Denev's comments about her youki level after seven years of training all point to this. This, couple with the trait that Priscilla has, explosive growth, makes it entirely possible for her to have a much higher youki level after releasing her potential through awakening. She may need 10-15 years as a claymore to release all her potential normally and match Teresa in youki level but her awakening did that in an instant. That's why I don't agree with the 10% = 80% argument.

Originally Posted by Gooral

Well, we don't know exactly how good of an eye Teresa could be. If Clare could serve as any indication of Teresa's abilities then she could even rival Galatea in that area (assuming that Teresa would be even better than Clare). After all Teresa sensed Rafaela that started suppressing her aura. We don't know how much time exactly it is needed to become a ghost nor how much time elapsed between Luciella's incident and encountering Teresa by Rafaela. What we know however is that natural suppression is much more effective than suppression on pills (Galatea couldn't sense the ghosts but she could sense Miata and Clarice on pills). So even if Rafaela wasn't completely cloaked the fact alone that Teresa (undeveloped at that, we know that for an eye to be skilled they need time, that's why they didn't replace Galatea with Renee immediately) could sense her means she had talent to be an eye.

Teresa is good at sensing close ranged targets. Detecting Rafaela shows she is very talented in youki sensing area. But no where does it show that she has good range. Wide range is one of the most important aspect of an eye because they are employed to spy from a distance. Being able to know detail from long range is also important. Clare may be able to sense pretty far, but she can't distinguish details or emotions at that range like Galatea. There is also the fact that Teresa is hiding the full extend of her abilities from the Org. She is unlikely to be the eye of that generation considering all that.