[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by SeagullCrazy

Spoiler for Ep6:

If, at the very end of EP6, Battler and Beatrice knew the "truth" like they claim to, then wouldn't it make sense for them to reference Rokkenjima-prime?

My biggest reason for saying this is because Erika dies after the red is stated.
Not just piece-Erika, but Meta-Erika too. How can a red only involving the gameboard kill a Meta-character? It can't, and that's why it has to apply to the real world (or at least the Meta-World).

I would be wary of this kind of logic. I agree that those reds at the end can be interpreted as past and future tense and make sense, but still. And no I think there was an instance where a meta-character died . When Beatrice had Battler kill her at the end of episode 4 and she had blue truths stabbing through her. So think one way that red works is to make Erika stop thinking. Battler has had experiences like that at least twice, and disappeared because of it once. Heck I haven't read it, but maybe we'll get a long haired Erika sprite in episode 7 and have a guilt trip about her instead of Beatrice.

[Renall]

"The truth" may have nothing whatsoever to do with what happened "for real." We just don't know.

[SeagullCrazy]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Erika was already fatally wounded before Beatrice and Battler used that last red. The fact she dies is part of the "duel" rules, and besides if Bern was present Erika could be saved.

The number of people is 17 is what dealt the finishing blow, though.
I'm saying that Meta-Erika = Erika's existence as a fictional character in the stories.

It's true that Erika is the 18th person. But there are only 17 people.
That doesn't make sense unless you're talking about two different worlds!

Originally Posted by Judoh

I would be wary of this kind of logic. I agree that those reds at the end can be interpreted as past and future tense and make sense, but still. And no I think there was an instance where a meta-character died . When Beatrice had Battler kill her at the end of episode 4 and she had blue truths stabbing through her. So think one way that red works is to make Erika stop thinking. Battler has had experiences like that at least twice, and disappeared because of it once. Heck I haven't read it, but maybe we'll get a long haired Erika sprite in episode 7 and have a guilt trip about her instead of Beatrice.

Beatrice only went into a doll-like state after the blue truths. It wasn't until the end of the 5th game that she died, and by that time her Illusion had been destroyed by Erika "proving" Natsuhi was the culprit.

EDIT:

Originally Posted by Renall

Additionally, Author Theory has never relied heavily on the red. It looks at statements in the endings, scenes set before and after 1986, and the conversations on the meta-meta level in ep6. Most of these have no red backing them at all.

I'd like to say that it's not that this theory relies on the red. It's explaining how two seemingly contradictory reds can exist at the same time.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by SeagullCrazy

[Beatrice only went into a doll-like state after the blue truths. It wasn't until the end of the 5th game that she died, and by that time her Illusion had been destroyed by Erika "proving" Natsuhi was the culprit.

She said herself before the tea party that she was going to make Battler kill her. That was her way of not playing anymore. That's why in episode 6 she was "reborn" and is described as being like she had just hatched from an egg right? By episode 5 she was just starting to revive.

[SeagullCrazy]

Originally Posted by Judoh

She said herself before the tea party that she was going to make Battler kill her. That was her way of not playing anymore. That's why in episode 6 she was "reborn" and is described as being like she had just hatched from an egg. By episode 5 she was just starting to revive.

...Are you sure that's the case?

Beatrice can't die until the Illusions are all broken. In the ???? of EP4, Lambda counters Battler's blue, keeping Beatrice alive, right?

And what about the scene in the ???? of EP5, where she walks up to Battler's corpse and dies on the spot? I thought that was supposed to be an emotional scene because she had died in a painful way by Bern and Lambda just after Battler discovers how to painlessly kill her.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by SeagullCrazy

...Are you sure that's the case?

Beatrice can't die until the Illusions are all broken. In the ???? of EP4, Lambda counters Battler's blue, keeping Beatrice alive, right?

Well one thing is What did those reds have to do with Beatrice? And I don't know if Beatrice ever heard those reds either. For all we know it was a private conversation.

Originally Posted by SeagullCrazy

And what about the scene in the ???? of EP5, where she walks up to Battler's corpse and dies on the spot? I thought that was supposed to be an emotional scene because she had died in a painful way by Bern and Lambda just after Battler discovers how to painlessly kill her.

I think at this point it was about whether she existed or not right? Wasn't it emotional because Battler was the only person he thought should be allowed to deny her because she's his opponent? From his point of view Bern and Lambda and Erika are basically doing what Beatrice did to his family in the other games. Making fun of people who died. So Battler has a reason to be emotional. It's not fair to do that to real people right? So why should it be different for people in the meta world?

[Raiza Sunozaki]

Originally Posted by Judoh

Heck I haven't read it, but maybe we'll get a long haired Erika sprite in episode 7 and have a guilt trip about her instead of Beatrice.

Won't get me on that trip. I haven't read Episode 6 yet, but Episode 5 did a pretty good job lodging Erika in my perma-hate category. She's a good character (beside her Mary Sue-ness), but I still hate her. Conversely, Episode 5 is what made me like Natsuhi so much.

I like Seagull's theory, but I'm uncomfortable with the writing of the games being left-up to occult otaku who filled in the mystery with their own ideas... even if it does explain the ridiculous outfits all the fantasy characters come in. I still stand by Episodes 1-4 being Beato's way of helping Battler understand the mystery, because once he understands Beato, he also understands that she changed the difficulty/added in new characters to help him understand the mystery easier. Episode 5 was Lambda's plaything, to keep her beloved Bern entertained. At this point, Lambda understood everything about the game (in fact, she may have understood from the beginning), so that's why she took the place of Game Master. Episode 6 is still a little fuzzy for me. I think it's Battler expressing to everyone how he understands the mystery, but Miss AuAu confuses it to me. I suppose I'll understand better once I can read the game.

[Raiza Sunozaki]

I always thought Beato survived because Battler couldn't solve that last riddle of hers. That's why she was comatose for most of Episode 5; because she was nearly dead, but couldn't die.

[SeagullCrazy]

Originally Posted by Judoh

Well one thing is What did those reds have to do with Beatrice? And I don't know if Beatrice ever heard those reds either. For all we know it was a private conversation.

If it kept her Illusion alive, whether she wanted it or not, then it has everything to do with her. And I don't think it matters whether or not she hears it.

Originally Posted by Judoh

I think at this point it was about whether she existed or not right? Wasn't it emotional because Battler was the only person he thought should be allowed to deny her because she's his opponent? From his point of view Bern and Lambda and Erika are basically doing what Beatrice did to his family in the other games. Making fun of people who died. So Battler has a reason to be emotional. It's not fair to do that to real people right? So why should it be different for people in the meta world?

Okay, I didn't think of that, and it's a good point, but I'm not what I'm trying to say.
The fact is, didn't Beatrice die there? And wasn't it because Erika had "solved" EP5? If exposing the truth about Meta-Characters is what kills them, then proving that the number of people is 17 would kill Meta-Erika too.

[Raiza Sunozaki]

Originally Posted by imaginari

From EP5:







I don't know if this has been mentioned by anyone yet.

I don't get anything out of the first and third one, but the second one is something I've been saying for a while: I highly doubt Kinzo would remember a town in Taiwan as his beloved hometown, if he isn't too fond of the entire country to begin with.

[Judoh]

The point I'm making is that the equivalent of "death" in the meta world is that coma like doll state. Meta-Battler was "dead" when he stopped thinking. In the real world you die when oxygen stops going to your brain. When Battler thought he wasn't capable of Being Beato's opponent he didn't have a soul anymore and Ange had to die to return it to him.

I think you can explain that event in episode 5 as Beatrice's ghost. I don't think she really dies at that point in episode 5, but she gives her final message to Battler. That's really just my opinion though.

[Raiza Sunozaki]

Originally Posted by SeagullCrazy

If it kept her Illusion alive, whether she wanted it or not, then it has everything to do with her. And I don't think it matters whether or not she hears it.



Okay, I didn't think of that, and it's a good point, but I'm not what I'm trying to say.
The fact is, didn't Beatrice die there? And wasn't it because Erika had "solved" EP5? If exposing the truth about Meta-Characters is what kills them, then proving that the number of people is 17 would kill Meta-Erika too.

I have to agree with the first statement. Remember the Episode 5 scene where Natsuhi was talking with Beatrice in the rose garden? When Bern destroyed the illusion with her red, even though there was no way for the Beatrice on the gameboard to hear her, she disappeared.
But Erika didn't solve the Episode, and we know from how Battler had to go through all the Episodes to kill her that winning one episode doesn't count. She just thoroughly eliminated the chance for Beato to exist within that episode. Beato still lived on in comatose.
The scene where she rests herself on Battler and dies; I interpretated it as her giving up and resigning from the game. She gave up on Battler finding the solution, and let the pro-mystery side win.

[SeagullCrazy]

Originally Posted by Raiza Sunozaki

The scene where she rests herself on Battler and dies; I interpretated it as her giving up and resigning from the game. She gave up on Battler finding the solution, and let the pro-mystery side win.

I like that idea, mainly because I'm having a hard time interpreting that scene anyway. Maybe, comparing Erika's death to Beatrice's was a bad idea, and instead it should be compared to Ange's death.

Both of them disappear when they die.
Both of them were Bern's pieces.
Both of them were involved with Battler losing his soul.

Most importantly, neither of them could have truly existed on Rokkenjima-prime.

[Raiza Sunozaki]

There are some connections between the two (though Ange was responsible for getting his soul back), but Ange "dies" (in my opinion she got expelled from the game) when she breaks one of the rules that let her enter the game: reveal her identity. Erika dies from having her existence denied. Sort of like Battler's existential crisis from Episode 4... though that was more of his "who am I?" angst that killed him.

There is one obvious connection between the two though: Bern seems to like having a dramatic exeunt. for all her pieces, ne?

[CrossoverManiac]

Check out this odd theory I found on the 4chan archives:

Beatrice was around Maria's age when she gained her power. Rather than waiting to 'grow up', Beatrice turned herself into a young adult woman. In that time, Beatrice was able to indulge in the forbidden fruits that only adults could take part in such as smoking (as it was the first indulgence that 'grown-up' Beatrice experience which is why she keeps it to this very day) and sex. Kinzo used magic to give Beatrice a mortal form and kept her in the hidden mansion on Rokkenjima. Around 1967, Rudolph stumbled across the mansion and had a relationship with Beatrice. She became pregnant and gave birth to Battler. Rudolph is forced to live up to his responsibilities and raise Battler as Asumu's child. Kinzo lost interested in her tainted Beatrice until decades of regret led him to attempt another summoning. 'Grown-up' Beatrice shows the mentality of a little girl trapped in the body of an adult woman. She is cruel but in the way a child is cruel. She has some empathy but is inexperienced and unaware of the harm she brings others; only her own hurt emotions as she seems unable to understand the hurt she caused Battler with the repeated murders of his own family and yet feels spited by an offense so minor, Battler is unable to remember it (which may relates to the Oedipus/Jocasta relationship developing between Battler and Beatrice where the lines between mother/son and lovers are blurred). She is spoiled by her powers and is used to instant gratification. The graceful acceptance of defeat is incomprehensible to Beatrice. Rather, she pitches a fit and runs away to the Golden Land which is indicative of a child getting angry at losing a game or not getting enough attention and running home to play by herself. In short, Beatrice is emotional immature and, given the nature of her powers, this may be true in more ways than one.

[CainSonozaki]

But i thought Erikas TIP from episode 6 said that regardless of the outcome of that game she would be removed from the game board. Something like that

[luckyssol]

Originally Posted by CainSonozaki

But i thought Erikas TIP from episode 6 said that regardless of the outcome of that game she would be removed from the game board. Something like that

I think this is what you were referring to:

Spoiler for Erika TIPS:

and then you can choose execute...

Spoiler for Erika TIPS:

It's almost as if she was never there in the first place.

[Kylon99]

Speaking of those TIPS, has anyone figured out what the red, blue and gold lines mean?

For example, Battler to Erika, red. And to their furniture, blue it seems. Bernkastel to Erika is blue (furniture?) But Bern and Lambda is gold. Hachijou/Featherine is gold to Ange as well. Ange is blue to Amakusa.

On the main TIPS page for all the pieces there is red between all the family members and blue between all the servants. Nanjo and Erika stand apart.


Wait.. this doesn't mean... Battler's related.. or married... to Erika.. does it?!
Noooooo!

[Marion]

Originally Posted by CrossoverManiac

Check out this odd theory I found on the 4chan archives:

/snip/

Yeah no. Rudolf might be a playboy, but I can't see him as the type of guy who would go around having sex with young girls. There's also no proof Rudolf 'stumbled' across the Kuwadorian and the only flashback with 1967 Beatrice shows her falling off a cliff a year before Battler is born, along with being surprised at Rosa's arrival and being Kinzo's daughter.

At this point I don't see really any reason for Kyrie not to be Battler's mother. Umineko is approaching EP 7 after all and there is plenty of evidence that a babyswitch occurred.

Speaking of those TIPS, has anyone figured out what the red, blue and gold lines mean?

Red- Characters who have a connection to each other on the gameboard in some way (not necessarily family)
Blue- Characters who have an alliance with each other (friends, furniture, group members, etc)
Gold- Characters who do have an alliance with each other, but are not part of the same faction (Bern and Lambda are allies, but they have different reasons to work with each other)

That's my guess anyway

[luckyssol]

Originally Posted by Kylon99

Speaking of those TIPS, has anyone figured out what the red, blue and gold lines mean?

For example, Battler to Erika, red. And to their furniture, blue it seems. Bernkastel to Erika is blue (furniture?) But Bern and Lambda is gold. Hachijou/Featherine is gold to Ange as well. Ange is blue to Amakusa.

On the main TIPS page for all the pieces there is red between all the family members and blue between all the servants. Nanjo and Erika stand apart.


Wait.. this doesn't mean... Battler's related.. or married... to Erika.. does it?!
Noooooo!

I think it's:

Blue = Ally
Red = Enemy
Gold = Neutral

At least for the meta world section of the TIPS for episode 6