Code Geass (Generic discussion thread)

[azul120]

It was still "depending on the situation", before he became good friends with Lelouch, and possibly during much of R2.

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by azul120

It was still "depending on the situation", before he became good friends with Lelouch,

But no longer afterwards. And even before, it was only when Lelouch was being seriously hurt that Suzaku intervened.
It's not like it never depends on the situations with Leolouch, so I find it hard to figure out where people draw the line.

[azul120]

I never said otherwise regarding Lelouch.

But yeah, it is hard to figure out sometimes.

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by azul120

I never said otherwise regarding Lelouch.

But yeah, it is hard to figure out sometimes.

Ah, so it's not just me - thanks, that makes me feel better. xD

I should go to bed now, before tvtropes really sucks me in. *sneaks away*

[Laurcus]

Originally Posted by Arbitres

Assuming direct control.

I am the Harbinger of your perfection.

[Betteroffer]

As far as Downer Endings go, I think another one would be Viletta shooting ZeroZaku in the face moments after she appears on the street with Cornelia and the others. Before everyone can freak out, Viletta explains that Lelouch was too cautious for something like this to happen, and she reasons that he staged his death with a masked double like with Sayoko back in Ashford so he could rule safely from the shadows through a combination of a Geass controlled Nunally and Schneizel, with himself as Zero again, basking in the adoration of the masses.

She then declares that the body on the float isn't Lelouch at all: It's a MAN, baby!

They take off the Zero mask to find Suzaku, and while this proves Viletta wrong in one regard, it still raises the fear that Lelouch, or someone else is alive and pulling the strings, since they find the supposedly already dead Knight of Zero underneath. The world then goes on a hunt for an already dead man that lasts decades, Schneizel and Nunally are barred from taking power for fear of being under Geass' control (nobody would trust Jeremiah to claim he could remove Geass), and Viletta is hailed as a hero for exposing a terrible conspiracy.

[morbosfist]

You know, I read the most eerie thing today, and I had never heard it before. Anyone know where this comes from?

The Kobayashi Maru (TVTropes source link)

"Code Geass doesn't use it, but in one interview the show's director offered a Kobayashi Maru-like situation to illustrate the differences between the two male leads. As the story goes, there's a car wreck and two men are injured, one worse than the other; there's also a hospital some distance away. Lelouch, an "end justifies the means" type, would consider the factors, then take the man with less severe injuries to the hospital; that man lives, and Lelouch consoles himself over the other's death with the knowledge that at least he saved one person. Suzaku, a "means justifies the ends" type, would do his best to get both of them to the hospital, but they'd both die along the way; at first he'd curse his own weakness, but then he'd assuage himself by saying that he did the right thing."

It seems legit, and is what I would expect of the characters.

[roriconfan]

^ A "you can't save them all" situation? Sounds ok but this parallelism forgets one simple thing.
Lelouch would be the one causing the accident and then he would lie about it.

[azul120]

^^ How awfully cynical. That overlooks him coming to the crashed vehicle Kallen and her fellow resistance cell comrade were in while everyone else watched, as well as the pre-storyline flashback Shirley described of Lelouch coming to help that one elderly person in the car (IIRC) when no one else would, and didn't want any attention called to his deed.

Originally Posted by Betteroffer

As far as Downer Endings go, I think another one would be Viletta shooting ZeroZaku in the face moments after she appears on the street with Cornelia and the others. Before everyone can freak out, Viletta explains that Lelouch was too cautious for something like this to happen, and she reasons that he staged his death with a masked double like with Sayoko back in Ashford so he could rule safely from the shadows through a combination of a Geass controlled Nunally and Schneizel, with himself as Zero again, basking in the adoration of the masses.

She then declares that the body on the float isn't Lelouch at all: It's a MAN, baby!

They take off the Zero mask to find Suzaku, and while this proves Viletta wrong in one regard, it still raises the fear that Lelouch, or someone else is alive and pulling the strings, since they find the supposedly already dead Knight of Zero underneath. The world then goes on a hunt for an already dead man that lasts decades, Schneizel and Nunally are barred from taking power for fear of being under Geass' control (nobody would trust Jeremiah to claim he could remove Geass), and Viletta is hailed as a hero for exposing a terrible conspiracy.

Haha, that would be awfully like Villetta to once again pull a Swiss Messenger.

Sometimes I can't tell whether she unknowingly or secretly pulled the most successful Xanatos Roulette in the series.

[Zetsubou Bunny]

Originally Posted by roriconfan

^ A "you can't save them all" situation? Sounds ok but this parallelism forgets one simple thing.
Lelouch would be the one causing the accident and then he would lie about it.

Rofl. Truth.

Originally Posted by azul120

That overlooks him coming to the crashed vehicle Kallen and her fellow resistance cell comrade were in while everyone else watched, as well as the pre-storyline flashback Shirley described of Lelouch coming to help that one elderly person in the car (IIRC) when no one else would, and didn't want any attention called to his deed.

I think Lelouch has manic periods of humanitarianism and apathy. After all he thinks he's a basically good person. For the most part he's pretty apathetic unless something about a situation triggers one of his complexes into action. You know he enjoyed ripping off that guy's bumper.

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by Zetsubou Bunny

I think Lelouch has manic periods of humanitarianism and apathy. After all he thinks he's a basically good person. For the most part he's pretty apathetic unless something about a situation triggers one of his complexes into action. You know he enjoyed ripping off that guy's bumper.

I don't think Lelouch believes himself to be a good person - a better person than his father, probably, but not good. Whenever he helps someone out, he finds an excuse: he saves Rivalz from a noble, then tells him he didn't do it out of kindness. He pretends "justice" is something he only uses to further his goals, then in a different context says he wants to "break the never-ending cycle of hatred". He wants to change the world, but says that this is Nunnally's wish, not his.

Never once does Lelouch claim to be a good person, and in the end, he does not hesitate to truly become a demon before removing himself from the board entirely. Even when he thinks he's doing good, he seems to believe he is doing something horrible at the same time - not only during Zero Requiem.

Edit: Bad typo is bad.

[Zetsubou Bunny]

Thinking you're 'good' doesn't necessarily mean that the things you do are done out of the goodness of your heart. In Lelouch's case he does things for the greater good --or the good of someone in specific in Nunnally's case. Or so he thinks.

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by Zetsubou Bunny

Thinking you're 'good' doesn't necessarily mean that the things you do are done out of the goodness of your heart. In Lelouch's case he does things for the greater good --or the good of someone in specific in Nunnally's case. Or so he thinks.

Mh, that's not quite what I meant.

Whenever Lelouch does something good, he basically claims he doesn't do it because he's a good person. Even when he indeed does something "out of the goodness of his heart".

Yes, he believes the end justifies the means, but unlike Schneizel, he also cares about the methods he uses, which by itself makes it nearly impossible for him to think of himself as a nice guy. But even without that, he uses Nunnally as an excuse to do what he believes is right - like Suzaku, he wants to "end the never ending cycle of hatred", but unlike Suzaku, he does not claim to do what he does for justice, but projects his wish onto Nunnally, who would never ask such a thing of him.

Lelouch thinks he's doing good, I agree with that, but I don't believe he thinks of himself as a good person. Zero Requiem is also an expression of that - a very extreme expression, but regardless of the circumstances, it shows his contradicting morals very clearly. He does things he must die for, but those things are supposed to be worth it and lead to world peace. It's a rather bizarre moral dilemma he creates for himself, though a very human one

[Zetsubou Bunny]

Just something that a discussion in the new project thread made me wonder about..

On the subject of the Collective Conscious. Okay, Lelouch made the entire world hate him, yes? That's a lot of people. Probably a pretty damn big portion of the Consciousness stream. The will of the Collective Conscious directly impacts everything including but not limited to the supernatural world.

Would this not inherently cause everlasting problems for Lelouch? x|

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by Zetsubou Bunny

Just something that a discussion in the new project thread made me wonder about..

On the subject of the Collective Conscious. Okay, Lelouch made the entire world hate him, yes? That's a lot of people. Probably a pretty damn big portion of the Consciousness stream. The will of the Collective Conscious directly impacts everything including but not limited to the supernatural world.

Would this not inherently cause everlasting problems for Lelouch? x|

hasn't it already been established that the number one cause for Lelouch's problems is Lelouch himself ?

no real need to look at the collective conscious to find stuff that would cause everlasting problems for Lelouch
he's perfectly capable of screwing up his (after)life all by himself

[Zetsubou Bunny]

Well no. Obviously he's the master of his own destruction.

But I mean beyond the scope of what would be 'normal' afterlife botchery. Setting the Collective Consciousness against himself would be his own fault too.

[azul120]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

hasn't it already been established that the number one cause for Lelouch's problems is Lelouch himself ?

no real need to look at the collective conscious to find stuff that would cause everlasting problems for Lelouch
he's perfectly capable of screwing up his (after)life all by himself

Not precisely himself, as more than a few of his biggest problems had someone else playing a role in them. That said, he is prone to overreaction.

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by azul120

Not precisely himself, as more than a few of his biggest problems had someone else playing a role in them. That said, he is prone to overreaction.

when you say "playing a role", do you by any chance mean "exposing his actions" ?
because that sort fits right into the whole "Lelouch tends to be the cause of his own problems" thing i was talking about

[Revolutionist]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

when you say "playing a role", do you by any chance mean "exposing his actions" ?
because that sort fits right into the whole "Lelouch tends to be the cause of his own problems" thing i was talking about

Are you referring to Schneizel + Oughi when you say "exposing his actions"? if you are that's kinda lame because while they did expose some of the things he did, a lot of evidence they presented were half truths and fabricated facts.

[azul120]

Exactly. With Schneizel himself engaging in a bit of character assassination to boot, both before and during the meeting.

And by "playing a role" I was referring to both Charles and V. V., and yes, Schneizel.