2010-12-20, 16:13 | Link #3301 |
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Funny thing is, that if Shirou DID take the easy way out, everyone would be dead. Because the easy way out would be him running away to save himself.
Would he be a villain? no, because that was one of the possible choices for him. Saying he;d be a complete villain just proves my point. what makes you think that is evil? Give me a detailed explanation. Real logic, not idealistic logic. Because in HF Shirou throws his ideology out of the window, and opens his way to several methodology. Actually, I'm going to stop trying now. Someone, someone better then explaining stuff then me - please take over. |
2010-12-20, 16:20 | Link #3302 |
Onii-chan~
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Take a step back and imagine yourself in that situation. Are you honestly going to say that you would let over 100 innocent people die simply because you don't want one person to die? There is ONLY ONE way that can be justified, and that is when 100 men go in and die on a rescue mission, because they CHOSE to die for the sake of saving that one person. It's nice to pray and hope for happy endings, its even nicer to get a happy ending, but at what cost? Are you really able to deem someone's life so much greater than a large quantity of other people that they should be sacrificed for that one person's existence?
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2010-12-20, 16:43 | Link #3303 | |||||||||||
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Oh and, incidentally, by the same logic he should have killed Ilya in Fate. No sense in risking the Grail being formed just to save one little girl, after all.... Similarly for every other situation where Shirou saved an innocent. He should have left Caster to drain souls until he was ready to fight, he should certainly not have jumped out to save Ilya in UBW (although it was ultimately pointless), he should have killed Ilya at the first opportunity in Fate (he knew she was a master, she was a potential danger to him and others and she was totally helpless in the day, she he should have bumped her off), he should have forced Saber to eat souls as soon as he knew the potential danger of someone else winning the Grail (because a few lives of random innocents are far less important than the whole city or even the whole world), and so on. Shirou does not uphold "kill one to save many", and HF is not exclusive in that respect. It's just that you can't accept it because he's trying to save a girl that he likes and you don't, rather than your favourite character (Ilya) or some random stranger he doesn't even know. Quote:
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Plus, why is it right that an innocent girl who has done nothing wrong and who has suffered nothing but pain for her entire life should be screwed over again because the situation she's been put in means that she is a potential danger to others (not an actual danger)? Your attitude is basically saying "lets kill the unfortunate so that those who are already fortunate can remain so", and to me that is just wrong. Quote:
If Sakura had just been some random girl Shirou didn't know, he'd still have protected her just as well. So, no, it's not selfish, it's just not being willing to make the decision to sacrifice the life of another "just in case". And, to me, no-one has the right to make the decision to kill Sakura but Sakura herself. As long as she wishes to live and is not an imminent threat (i.e. isn't killing anyone at that moment, or about to do so), then to me killing her is not justifable. They should find another way to stop her, if necessary, which is what Shirou resolved to do (and, to the best of his knowledge, there was little risk in that approach). Quote:
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It's the same logic as is applied to banning lolicon and locking up people who are attracted to lolis ("well, if they're attracted to children they might decide to rape one, so we'd better lock them all up to protect the children") , so I guess that, once you've replied to this post, you're going to go straight to the nearest police station with your hard-drive and all your lolicon porn to hand yourself in for "public safety". Quote:
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2010-12-20, 16:45 | Link #3304 | ||
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The easy way out is simply killing Sakura and continuing the Grail War from there, in comparison to throwing away his ideals and himself to save everyone he possibly can. The actions he took weren't selfish because his thought process wasn't "I'm doing this for myself" but "I'm throwing away myself for another person" which is incredibly in-character. Quote:
I took it as a earn your happy ending route. Now, if there was a 100% possibility Sakura was going to kill thousands's, I'm not even sure Shirou would keep trying to save her. At one point during a HF bad end he himself comes to the conclusion she is beyond saving, and at that point he probably wouldn't have continued trying. |
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2010-12-20, 16:59 | Link #3305 | ||||
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I would have re-done it fromt he grounds up, period. |
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2010-12-20, 17:13 | Link #3306 | ||||
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It's easy to judge him based on what happened eventually and forget that he did not know at the time how badly wrong things would go later on, or that the shadow had anything to do with Sakura. Quote:
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2010-12-20, 17:25 | Link #3307 | |
Casting a spell on you...
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See my Ilya option earlier in this thread. And she even explained her powers to Shirou before the shadow even showed up. She also knew Sakura was the host for AM a loooong way into the route. So there was a perfectly well defined solution right there. And IIRC, didn't Rin say, she can get control of the worms with time? Besides, if she is such a danger, seal her and keep her under confinement. That should be within Rin's powers and Rider wouldn't mind that. Too many options to really give up hope entirely like they did. But since I'll be flagged with thinking in hindsight here let's look at it from the protag's eye at the time: The first time the decision comes up she accidentally sapped precisely one magus of mana, and the thought was that she would go out and kill more as the worms made her crazy. Lock her up and have Rin feed her jewels (she had a ton of them at this point in the story, and years worth of prana would be better than a bunch of humans, though). Sakura is not the heretic, Zouken is the heretic. Go for the source, not the proxy, that is the most efficient manner in which to handle this (they don't know all the specifics of the soul jar yet). The second time, the heretic you are trying to kill is telling you to kill his 'prized' work, let's ask ourselves why he would do that?(we know, with hindsight, Zouken wanted Shirou to betray her so that she would lose hope even quicker, and then despair. Seeing Shirou's lifeless corpse killed by Rider(which is the next point) in self-defense of her, plus knowing he gave up on her, what do you think that would do?) A rogue Servant, who you know is die-hard in protecting her Master is hovering in spirit form and you have no Servant in which to keep said heroic spirit in check. Another foolish decision. And before anyone says he could use the arm. Why not try Rule Breaker? The best way to handle this is to use our brains, not mindlessly go for a self-righteous, rash decision. Also careful young one, with so quickly running to "whatever the cost". Ironically, you are embracing Zouken's will for helping humanity. Ask yourself, if death itself can be defeated by the sacrifice of billions, would that be okay? Trillions of future lives for a billion right? Surely you must see how wrong that line of thinking is. Last edited by Altima of the Gates; 2010-12-20 at 17:37. |
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2010-12-20, 18:38 | Link #3308 |
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Join Date: Oct 2010
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This arguement again will it never die? Shirou is in the wrong here. The problem is not that he didn't kill Sakura it's that he didn't lock down sakura making sure she cold never leave the room and made sure that if Sakura did kill anyone then it would be Shirou followed by her death. He didn't he was careless essentially allowed her to come and go as she pleased. That's pretty much the same as allowing someone with a deadly infestous disease to just walk out of quarantine. Then when he founds out about her killing spree does he lock her up? No he goes on with his own business. He has total disregard for human life. You can't really say he's not in the wrong when after he found out what Sakura was doing he didn't do a dam thing to stop her.
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2010-12-20, 18:43 | Link #3309 |
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Age: 37
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"Screw everyone else, I'll save the woman I love. I'd gladly sacrifice half of the world if it meant keeping the person I love the most next to me forever." Is that wrong? Perhaps. But what is right and what is wrong does not matter. It's about saving the person most dear to you.
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2010-12-20, 19:06 | Link #3310 | |
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There's nothing (other than killing her) he could do to prevent her leaving if she did go insane (she's too powerful), so attempting to "lock her down" would be futile. Not to mention that it wouldn't have actually done anything to the shadow, because the shadow was her familiar rather than her (most of the time, at least). Plus, if she went insane, he would almost certainly have warning that it was going to happen, so he didn't need to keep her restrained at the time. Not to mention that she has Rider, who would most likely strenuously object to any attempt to restrain Sakura (by which I mean "stick her nails into rather unpleasant places if he dared try anything that she felt wasn't in Sakura's best interests). Plus, he did try to stop Sakura doing anything. Once he found out that she was the shadow, he went to kill her, and he just couldn't do it. Following that, he went to Kotomine trying to find a solution ASAP. Locking Sakura up would have achieved nothing, because she's a magus. Further, how can you say that refusing to kill an innocent girl is "a disregard for life"? I'd say it's the exact opposite, personally.... |
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2010-12-20, 20:06 | Link #3311 | |
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Besides shirou could permanently incapacitate her anyway by asking sakura to give him command of Rider and tell Rider to permanently use gorgon stare on her. There's many ways he could of stopped her from killing innocents but he never bothered trying. Didn't even think about it. Anyway lol at your last response I'm tempted to say you activated my trap card. If you read closely you'll notice that I never said Shirou should kill Sakura I was refering to the fact that he did jack all to prevent her from killing others but you went defensive and assumed I was referring to him killing Sakura in order to prevent her from killing others. |
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2010-12-20, 20:12 | Link #3312 | |
Onii-chan~
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The man unified a corrupt Rome and caused it to flourish. In order to accomplish this, he killed everyone who he could not force to obey him.
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2010-12-20, 20:32 | Link #3313 | ||||||
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Not to mention that a) Rider would refuse and b) that would turn Sakura to stone. Further, it's not exactly nice to do that to her, and I don't think it would stop the shadow anyway. Plus, it may well not work, because she's too powerful a magus. Quote:
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Oh, and thanks for proving my point about your views being intrinsically linked to authoritarianism, BTW.... Last edited by Cherry_Lover; 2010-12-21 at 08:48. |
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2010-12-20, 20:45 | Link #3314 |
Onii-chan~
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As long as people are not tools, I don't care what form of government is in control.
And Gaius did more for Rome than MANY emperors could ever dream of, and seizing power for him also meant that for the good of Rome, because he wanted Rome to prosper more than anything else.
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2010-12-20, 21:25 | Link #3315 | ||
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Why didn't Rin detect when Sakura went out of the house? They had already confined her to her room. The shadow itself manifested on it's own and spread (you do know it can teleport through shadows right?) well Rin had no knowledge of that fact, and she was the most intelligent magus there. And Rin kept familiars on Sakura at all times. It is not that Sakura was free to go wherever she pleased. The Shadow could break through all of the wards and warnings they had, and Rin did use a few of them, if you read the scenes properly. Unfortunately, it was out of their hands. Honestly, and what would most of the people arguing these points do? Throw the girl away and kill her. Playing right into the hands of one or both of the main villains, causing what could have been an even bigger catastrophe. Yeah, nice job heroes. You couldn't save a girl suffering (I'll not even consider 'mercy-killing' to be 'saving' here, since I stand by the alternatives I proposed. ) or the people who will be killed when the idiots get trolled. Look the so-called 'righteous busybodies' here. If you want to say flat out, that letting her live while people were dying is wrong, then I say that refusing to see the obvious alternatives and instead go for the quickest route without knowing a damn thing of the situation is the stupidest, most short-sighted thing I've ever seen. What if the curse wasn't stopped with her death? What if all you did was kill her consciousness by trying, which succumbed to despair, and you just had full AM without Sakura's id to at least keep it in check? What if Zouken had gotten the body. And it would be all too late to say whoops or to apologize to Sakura after shit went wrong. Seriously, for all the bluster in this conversation, there continues to be the same blind, fanatical, narrow viewpoint. That was the one thing that pissed me off greatly in HF; that intelligent people refused to think, or rather, too stubborn in their ways. Quote:
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2010-12-21, 04:36 | Link #3318 | ||||
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Also, Julius wasn't a hero. I'd personally would have gone with Batman. Quote:
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2010-12-21, 05:37 | Link #3320 | |
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fate/stay night, visual novel |
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