[Spoilers] Kid younger than pre-skip Naruto Stronger than Kakashi?

[Satoru]

No, Itachi never used the MS against his clan. They are too weak for Itachi, simple as that.

[Slayerx]

Originally Posted by Uchiha_Rurik

Slayerx, I have to say you observations makes sense and it is a possibility, but what I wanted to add, is that I don't belive that Itachi used more than once the MS against the Uchiha's.

I say He used it once on the Uchiha's and the other to Sasuke, Leaving Itachi still enough chakra to scape Konoha without been traped.

Well that was the point i was trying to make towards the the end of my post... When i said "now if itachi didn't use the MS..."
You've already stated why Itachi didn't use the MS agianst his clan, and your probably right...

So my thoughts are in a different view... in short, as detailed in my post... Itachi didn't use the MS (or atleast he didn't horribly abused it like i thought before), but instead he relied on sneak attacks to kill of most his clan, giving them less of a chance to ready and defend themselves... killing most of them before they knew what was going on... the only ones that fought back were the one he attacked last and managed to realize what was going on

[Rurik]

Originally Posted by Slayerx

So my thoughts are in a different view... in short, as detailed in my post... Itachi didn't use the MS (or atleast he didn't horribly abused it like i thought before), but instead he relied on sneak attacks to kill of most his clan, giving them less of a chance to ready and defend themselves... killing most of them before they knew what was going on... the only ones that fought back were the one he attacked last and managed to realize what was going on

Maybe he rellied on sneak atacks, but you can't deny that The true power of Uchiha were in the Police force, a police force that was still working, so this part was not sneak, not to mention, we are not talking about cardboard boxes ninja, we Are Talking about Jounnins with Sharingan, and are genius.

I will, remind you again that Itachi didn't sweat when he defeated 3 Jounnins with Sharingan, in a blink of An Eye, and we are speaking about something that happened 2 years before the Uchiha Massacre, it is more likely that Itachi got more powerful when he fought and killed the clan.

[Satoru]

Originally Posted by Slayerx

So my thoughts are in a different view... in short, as detailed in my post... Itachi didn't use the MS (or atleast he didn't horribly abused it like i thought before), but instead he relied on sneak attacks to kill of most his clan, giving them less of a chance to ready and defend themselves... killing most of them before they knew what was going on... the only ones that fought back were the one he attacked last and managed to realize what was going on

This is completely false. Let me remind you of the fact that Itachi wanted to test his strength. He was on the verge of killing his clan in daylight, and he would have done so, but Sasuke managed to stop him. I don't understand why you give the clan so much credit. They were simply weaker than Itachi. There was no need for MS or a sneak attack, because they didn't stand a chance.

[Slayerx]

Originally Posted by Uchiha_Rurik

Maybe he rellied on sneak atacks, but you can't deny that The true power of Uchiha were in the Police force, a police force that was still working, so this part was not sneak, not to mention, we are not talking about cardboard boxes ninja, we Are Talking about Jounnins with Sharingan, and are genius.

I will, remind you again that Itachi didn't sweat when he defeated 3 Jounnins with Sharingan, in a blink of An Eye, and we are speaking about something that happened 2 years before the Uchiha Massacre, it is more likely that Itachi got more powerful when he fought and killed the clan.

Also, remeber that Itachi caught those 3 off guard... after knocking them down he told them that they shouldn't prejudge others... they thought Itachi was more patient, and that he wouldn't attack them so openly and suddenly like that, they didn't think he was that impulsive...

In short i think he took down the same way he took those three down... killing them mostly before they realized what was going on...

Not to mention, the capacity of the clan is weaker... while some would not heistate to fight itachi, many would not have forgotten that he was family... most of them were probably killed because they hesitated to fight back, and were caught in the confusion of what was going on... many probaly thought "what the hell is going on? Itachi did you just do what i think you did?"... a mix of both surpirse and confusion was used to kill the clan... confusion caused by their disbelief

Originally Posted by Satoru

Let me remind you of the fact that Itachi wanted to test his strength.

Please actually go back a re-read my previous long post... particulariy towards the end, where i mention how when Itachi said "test" his cpacity, he was possibly taking about more about his metal capacity, not his physical capacity

short version is that it was more important to him that he was capable of killing ANYONE, even those close to him... not that he was capable of killing strong poeple...

[Satoru]

Originally Posted by Slayerx

Please actually go back a re-read my previous long post... particulariy towards the end, where i mention how when Itachi said "test" his cpacity, he was possibly taking about more about his metal capacity, not his physical capacity

You gotta be kidding me. Itachi already killed his best friend. You think it was hard to kill other clan members who disliked him?
Besides, it is seen as a great accomplishment to kill the strongest clan of all. This was mentioned quite often.

[Rurik]

Originally Posted by Slayerx

Also, remeber that Itachi caught those 3 off guard... after knocking them down he told them that they shouldn't prejudge others... they thought Itachi was more patient, and that he wouldn't attack them so openly and suddenly like that, they didn't think he was that impulsive...

This is completely false, the 3 Jounnins as well as Itachi where prepared to fight each other, you could tell on how each Uchiha had their Sharingan on in the moment before the fight, So, no they where not caught of guard. They were surprised at the fact that Itachi could handle then that easy.

Itachi words where about, yeah they did not expect him to lose his temper, but he also mentioned the fact that the 3 Uchiha's failed to meassure Itachi real abilities.

Originally Posted by Slayerx

Not to mention, the capacity of the clan is weaker... while some would not heistate to fight itachi, many would not have forgotten that he was family... most of them were probably killed because they hesitated to fight back, and were caught in the confusion of what was going on... many probaly thought "what the hell is going on? Itachi did you just do what i think you did?"... a mix of both surpirse and confusion was used to kill the clan... confusion caused by their disbelief

And we are repeating the same we did in another thread.

You are making out excuses out of nothing to try to convince yourself that Itachi could not have killed the Uhchiha’s that easily, when Kishimoto was very Graphical about what happened, He wanted to say: Itachi is strong Enough to Kill a clan full of Strong Shinoby. Saying that The Clan hesitated to fight back is BS when an Uchiha Just Saw how Itachi just killed someone he liked (Like That Uchiha Son, or Brother).

Not to mention that we are speaking about Konoha police force, that in the moment of Duty would have tried to uphold the law, even if it was one of the clan, as The 3 Jounnin back then didn’t hesitated when they wanted to take Itachi.

[astayanax]

It doesn't make much sense for Itachi to do cheap kills out of fear. He would simply be better off just running off to the night. He killed the clan to make a point imho - that he is simply that powerful and that none of them were at his level; not because he doesn't want to be hunted by avenging cousins.

Also, alot of the Uchihas wanted Itachi dead after they found out his best friend was murdered. It took Itachi's father intervention to stop the slaughtering right then.

[Xarrais]

kakashi didn't know the full extent of haku's power at the time of that statement. The comment he made the clearest intent was to tell naruto to not take things at face value things can be different than they appear. This is a common lessen that appears in across the board in all sorts of movies TV shows anime even non anime types of things.


Haku's chakra capacity was not high enough to maintain his justsu at its full power for long If he had gotten kakashi in that thing and went for vitals immediatly when he was still at full speed he would have probly beaten him.

However as a whole kakashi I think was pretty obviously stronger than haku and would likly win. Sasuke matched his speed and kakashi would be faster than sasuke Haku vs kakashi haku would not have had time to implent the bloodline IMO

[Slayerx]

Let me ask this... if the only thing that Itachi was doing when he killed his clan was to test th limits of his strength... then why did he ONLY kill his the uchiha clan?... Itachi made killing off his clan look easy, and seemed to have plenty of energy to keep fighting... so why did he stop his massacre when he hadn't come close to reaching his limits...

Why would he be satisfied, with just his clan... why not go after the Anbu, or the Huuga clans... or hell, why not test his power to the hokage... if he really wanted to test his strength, and his strength alone then he would have continued his massacre until he knew he was at his limit...

not to mention, their are still poeple in his clan that love him... surely he couldn't expect all of them to fight him without holding back... some like his Father and mother would porbably hold something back... if he really wanted to test his strength he would have gone after another clan like Huuga... their said to be just about as stron... the only difference is that NONE of them would hold back in even the slightest

Not to mention, if he was just testing his strength, then what the hell was the point of killing the weaker members of the clan, the other Uchiha children, the non-ninjas and so forth... killing them aswell wouldn't have proven a thing... the only thing he could prove by killing the weaklings was that he was a man with the capacity to kill ANYONE


I find the Idea of Itachi killing off his clan when they were at their best total BS... I mean, A high level jounin can put up a pretty decent fight against a Sannin before being taken down... The Idea that he could take on like 10 or more high level jounin when they were fully ready to fight him, and not even break a sweet would be saying that he was atleast Sannin level WITHOUT the MS... If he was really capable of doing THAT much damage at the age of 13 without the MS and without anykind of advantage, then why isn't he even more ungodly presently... By now, someone like Jiriaya should be verry easy pickings for him, even without the MS...

Originally Posted by Uchiha_Rurik

This is completely false, the 3 Jounnins as well as Itachi where prepared to fight each other, you could tell on how each Uchiha had their Sharingan on in the moment before the fight, So, no they where not caught of guard. They were surprised at the fact that Itachi could handle then that easy.

Itachi words where about, yeah they did not expect him to lose his temper, but he also mentioned the fact that the 3 Uchiha's failed to meassure Itachi real abilities.

They were offguard, they sorely underestimaed Itachi... they thought he was patient, that he wasn't impusive enough to just attakc them without a second thought... i mean, they didn't even take any kind of figthing stance to prepare themselves (which is what they would have done if they were on their full guard)... they thought they could take him, no problem, and in their aggrogance, they dropped their guard... yes its's true they used the Sharigan, but we've seen that many times members of the clan use it for itimidation, not just when their ready to fight... more then likely, they probably didn't use the Sharigan's because they were ready to fight, but just to show they were serious... The Uchiha seem to often use their Sharigan as a way of flexing the musces

You are making out excuses out of nothing to try to convince yourself that Itachi could not have killed the Uhchiha’s that easily, when Kishimoto was very Graphical about what happened, He wanted to say: Itachi is strong Enough to Kill a clan full of Strong Shinoby. Saying that The Clan hesitated to fight back is BS when an Uchiha Just Saw how Itachi just killed someone he liked (Like That Uchiha Son, or Brother).

Not to mention that we are speaking about Konoha police force, that in the moment of Duty would have tried to uphold the law, even if it was one of the clan, as The 3 Jounnin back then didn’t hesitated when they wanted to take Itachi.

i prefer to call it reading between the lines... i ask myself, if there was a serious fight, weren't their be more signs of stuggle, such as destroyed buildings from the use of jutsus like the Katon... and If Itachi could kill the clan effortlessly, why did he just kill his clan alone, and no one else... surely if he was testing his strength he would have aimed for even higher after his clan... And look at how his parents died... They looked like they died without putting up much a fight...

Saying they hesitated is not BS... its within human nature to have trouble with dealing with those kind of situations... the 3 Jounin were exceptional ones who would have no problem fighting Itachi... but they are not the Rule... If Itachi killed Sasuke and his Father, do you think his mother would have been able to kill him without a second thought?
Itachi's Mother is one extreme, and the 3 Jounins are the other... more then likely all the other Uchiha would fall somewhere in the middle... Sure some suspected the Itachi kill his best friend, but that was 2 years proior to the event; with exception to some like the 3 jounin, many probably would have been conviced that Itachi was in fact innocent; especially since he never had any previous record of such acts, and never did anything evil after that day... many probably would be killed before they fully grasp the situation

[Satoru]

Originally Posted by Slayerx

Let me ask this... if the only thing that Itachi was doing when he killed his clan was to test th limits of his strength... then why did he ONLY kill his the uchiha clan?... Itachi made killing off his clan look easy, and seemed to have plenty of energy to keep fighting... so why did he stop his massacre when he hadn't come close to reaching his limits...

Why would he be satisfied, with just his clan... why not go after the Anbu, or the Huuga clans... or hell, why not test his power to the hokage... if he really wanted to test his strength, and his strength alone then he would have continued his massacre until he knew he was at his limit...

not to mention, their are still poeple in his clan that love him... surely he couldn't expect all of them to fight him without holding back... some like his Father and mother would porbably hold something back... if he really wanted to test his strength he would have gone after another clan like Huuga... their said to be just about as stron... the only difference is that NONE of them would hold back in even the slightest

Not to mention, if he was just testing his strength, then what the hell was the point of killing the weaker members of the clan, the other Uchiha children, the non-ninjas and so forth... killing them aswell wouldn't have proven a thing... the only thing he could prove by killing the weaklings was that he was a man with the capacity to kill ANYONE


I find the Idea of Itachi killing off his clan when they were at their best total BS... I mean, A high level jounin can put up a pretty decent fight against a Sannin before being taken down... The Idea that he could take on like 10 or more high level jounin when they were fully ready to fight him, and not even break a sweet would be saying that he was atleast Sannin level WITHOUT the MS... If he was really capable of doing THAT much damage at the age of 13 without the MS and without anykind of advantage, then why isn't he even more ungodly presently... By now, someone like Jiriaya should be verry easy pickings for him, even without the MS...


They were offguard, they sorely underestimaed Itachi... they thought he was patient, that he wasn't impusive enough to just attakc them without a second thought... i mean, they didn't even take any kind of figthing stance to prepare themselves (which is what they would have done if they were on their full guard)... they thought they could take him, no problem, and in their aggrogance, they dropped their guard... yes its's true they used the Sharigan, but we've seen that many times members of the clan use it for itimidation, not just when their ready to fight... more then likely, they probably didn't use the Sharigan's because they were ready to fight, but just to show they were serious... The Uchiha seem to often use their Sharigan as a way of flexing the musces


i prefer to call it reading between the lines... i ask myself, if there was a serious fight, weren't their be more signs of stuggle, such as destroyed buildings from the use of jutsus like the Katon... and If Itachi could kill the clan effortlessly, why did he just kill his clan alone, and no one else... surely if he was testing his strength he would have aimed for even higher after his clan... And look at how his parents died... They looked like they died without putting up much a fight...

Saying they hesitated is not BS... its within human nature to have trouble with dealing with those kind of situations... the 3 Jounin were exceptional ones who would have no problem fighting Itachi... but they are not the Rule... If Itachi killed Sasuke and his Father, do you think his mother would have been able to kill him without a second thought?
Itachi's Mother is one extreme, and the 3 Jounins are the other... more then likely all the other Uchiha would fall somewhere in the middle... Sure some suspected the Itachi kill his best friend, but that was 2 years proior to the event; with exception to some like the 3 jounin, many probably would have been conviced that Itachi was in fact innocent; especially since he never had any previous record of such acts, and never did anything evil after that day... many probably would be killed before they fully grasp the situation

You know, can't you keep it short? You have such a simple point, so please don't write so much.

We have not seen the massacre, but we have seen that it was done easily. The Uchihas got killed by shuriken and an anbu blade. Slaughtered. Itachi's greatest advantage was probably his superior speed, as we have seen against the three cops. You are convinced the three cops were not ready for a fight. The fact that Itachi activated the Sharingan says otherwise. It was an obvious warning. The cops baited Itachi, and when he took the bait, they were ready to fight... they wanted a fight because they clearly disliked him and wanted a reason for an arrest. The surprise was that Itachi defeated them effortlessly.

[monir]

Let me ask this... if the only thing that Itachi was doing when he killed his clan was to test th limits of his strength... then why did he ONLY kill his the uchiha clan?...

Through out the series it has been mentioned so many times how genius of a clan the Uchihas were and that they were revered and feared due to their superior fighting skills and adaptive abilities that comes with the use of the Sharingan. The Uchiha clan was considered the best among all the other clans in Konoha. So if Itachi really wanted to measure up his scale of superiority then it does make sense why he would want to take on the best clan of Konoha.

What doesn't add up is why he has killed every other person of the Uchihas, possibly including other children at Sasuke's age or younger and women.

[Rurik]

This post is very long, so I will try to keep my responses Short.

Originally Posted by Slayerx

Let me ask this... if the only thing that Itachi was doing when he killed his clan was to test th limits of his strength... then why did he ONLY kill his the uchiha clan?... Itachi made killing off his clan look easy, and seemed to have plenty of energy to keep fighting... so why did he stop his massacre when he hadn't come close to reaching his limits...
Why would he be satisfied, with just his clan... why not go after the Anbu, or the Huuga clans... or hell, why not test his power to the hokage... if he really wanted to test his strength, and his strength alone then he would have continued his massacre until he knew he was at his limit...

Have you even thought that maybe he was unharmed, but still he have used a lot of stamina, hence he was tired? We also know that Akatsuki members are giving a task in order to make their membership official inside de Organization, the Uchiha Clan killing could d have been Itachi test.

Originally Posted by Slayerx

not to mention, their are still poeple in his clan that love him... surely he couldn't expect all of them to fight him without holding back... some like his Father and mother would porbably hold something back... if he really wanted to test his strength he would have gone after another clan like Huuga... their said to be just about as stron... the only difference is that NONE of them would hold back in even the slightest

And you still are in a denial of something that is to clear to argue about. Could he Kill Uchihas that where reluctant to fight him, Maybe, but you are speaking of a minority, in fact, after Uchiha Shinsui was found death, Itachi had distance himself from the clan, even from Sasuke, who where supposed to be close, Do you think others felt love for Itachi, that was acting suspicious since A much loved Uchiha was killed?

Originally Posted by Slayerx

Not to mention, if he was just testing his strength, then what the hell was the point of killing the weaker members of the clan, the other Uchiha children, the non-ninjas and so forth... killing them aswell wouldn't have proven a thing... the only thing he could prove by killing the weaklings was that he was a man with the capacity to kill ANYONE

The non killing of Kids, still would had not changedf the fact that he killed Strong one, Shinoby’s that fought him head on.

Originally Posted by Slayerx

I find the Idea of Itachi killing off his clan when they were at their best total BS... I mean, A high level jounin can put up a pretty decent fight against a Sannin before being taken down... The Idea that he could take on like 10 or more high level jounin when they were fully ready to fight him, and not even break a sweet would be saying that he was atleast Sannin level WITHOUT the MS... If he was really capable of doing THAT much damage at the age of 13 without the MS and without anykind of advantage, then why isn't he even more ungodly presently... By now, someone like Jiriaya should be verry easy pickings for him, even without the MS...

Just simply because people that doesn’t accept the fact, try to nitpick this acts made by itachi, lets be serious, Itachi had in the palm of his hands 3 Of Konohas best Shinoby (azuma, kureania, and Kakashi), And he Didn’t break a sweat, Did he used the MS, yes he did, but the fact is, this was not necessary, he just did it for Show.

Itachi at 11 be a Sannin level?, yeah it is a pretty crazy concept, but we go again to Kakashi's quotes “There are people younger than X but are stronger than Y.”

Originally Posted by Slayerx

They were offguard, they sorely underestimaed Itachi... they thought he was patient, that he wasn't impusive enough to just attakc them without a second thought... i mean, they didn't even take any kind of figthing stance to prepare themselves (which is what they would have done if they were on their full guard)... they thought they could take him, no problem, and in their aggrogance, they dropped their guard... yes its's true they used the Sharigan, but we've seen that many times members of the clan use it for itimidation, not just when their ready to fight... more then likely, they probably didn't use the Sharigan's because they were ready to fight, but just to show they were serious... The Uchiha seem to often use their Sharigan as a way of flexing the musces

And stop trying to overanalyze things, I mean trying to look for reasons on how did Itachi got out of the massacre without a Scratch is one thing, but trying now to decimate something shown in the Manga is just absurd.

Even if those Uchiha where not prepared for Attack, they still had the Sharingan on, a Sharingan on the level of Kakashi (yeah the same Kakshi that could run a while from Itachi’s Attack) Even If Itachi attacked without any advise, their level and the Sharingan should have been enough to counter this. Itachi words where clear “You tough that you were on the same level as me”(something like that) after this Itachi begins talking about that same point, that they are weak because the ties to the clans and the rules that govern them have weakened them. He is referring to, “Yeah, I have achieved a level you never will reach staying here” I don’t have the Manga with me right now, so I can’t give an exact quote.

With your logic I can say the same thing that Itachi could only do what he did to Kakashi, because Hei was surprised of Itachi’s Attack.

Originally Posted by Slayerx

i prefer to call it reading between the lines... i ask myself, if there was a serious fight, weren't their be more signs of stuggle, such as destroyed buildings from the use of jutsus like the Katon... and If Itachi could kill the clan effortlessly, why did he just kill his clan alone, and no one else... surely if he was testing his strength he would have aimed for even higher after his clan... And look at how his parents died... They looked like they died without putting up much a fight...

I would call it trying to use any means to prove your point since the beginning “Itachi feet into killing Uchiha clan could not have been done without the help of a Mass destruction Jutsu”

But guess what, there is no sign of Mass destruction Jutsu, in Fact there is no sign of Justus at all, Because Itachi single handily extinguish Konoha strongest Clan, more sign of struggle you ask for? What for?, In fact the better the Shinoby is, the less traces of his activities you will find.

Originally Posted by Slayerx

Saying they hesitated is not BS... its within human nature to have trouble with dealing with those kind of situations... the 3 Jounin were exceptional ones who would have no problem fighting Itachi... but they are not the Rule... If Itachi killed Sasuke and his Father, do you think his mother would have been able to kill him without a second thought?

And this does not apply to Uchihas towards Itachi, we are talking about someone that publicly admitted Hating the Clan, and was linked to the killing of the most popular Uchiha, so there were no hesitation by the Uchiha’s stop inventing things.

Originally Posted by Slayerx

Itachi's Mother is one extreme, and the 3 Jounins are the other... more then likely all the other Uchiha would fall somewhere in the middle... Sure some suspected the Itachi kill his best friend, but that was 2 years proior to the event; with exception to some like the 3 jounin, many probably would have been conviced that Itachi was in fact innocent; especially since he never had any previous record of such acts, and never did anything evil after that day... many probably would be killed before they fully grasp the situation

You need to follow the Manga better because you are just making a fool of yourself: Itachi was not that liked as you said so, in fact, Itachi's behavior had gotten worst, he even distanced himself from the clan to a point even Sasuke was thinking that Itachi didn’t care for him, Even Worst, the Other Uchiha's , possible knew on how Itachi had distance himself from the clan, so What do you think they would do if Itachi begins to kill people of the Clan, Hesitate? and not stop him? Yeah right.

[Slayerx]

Originally Posted by Satoru

You know, can't you keep it short? You have such a simple point, so please don't write so much.

I like to fully explain my rational for thinking the way i do... also, when i come up with a theory i also like to think of what poeple will say to refute my theory, and add it to my rational... that way, people won't bring up certain points without explanation and i won't have to repeat myself

I perfer the avoid things like someone saying "itachi was testing his strength" and then leaving without explaination... why? because i already mentioned why i don't think that to be the case... Because i alreaady explained my view on that point, i expect to get an explaintion as to why i'm wrong, instead of a simple "you're wrong"...

Originally Posted by Monir

Through out the series it has been mentioned so many times how genius of a clan the Uchihas were and that they were revered and feared due to their superior fighting skills and adaptive abilities that comes with the use of the Sharingan. The Uchiha clan was considered the best among all the other clans in Konoha. So if Itachi really wanted to measure up his scale of superiority then it does make sense why he would want to take on the best clan of Konoha.

What doesn't add up is why he has killed every other person of the Uchihas, possibly including other children at Sasuke's age or younger and women.

with exeption to the killing of children and weklings, ya kinda missed my point

My point was why did he ONLY kill his clan... if he was truly testing his strength, he would have not wasted time with the weak and would have kept fighting kohona's best jounin until he reached his limit...

Which is why i think he talks of mental capacity, and not physical capacity... his massacre was limited to ONLY his family and friends...

Originally Posted by Uchiha_Rurik

Have you even thought that maybe he was unharmed, but still he have used a lot of stamina, hence he was tired? We also know that Akatsuki members are giving a task in order to make their membership official inside de Organization, the Uchiha Clan killing could d have been Itachi test.

Well Itachi showed no such signs of fatigue at all... as for ataksuki... he joined them 2 years prior to the masscre... and the way he speaks about wanting to test himself, leads me to beilive he was doing it more of himself then for anyone... not to mention, if it was an ataksuki test, it probably would have been a "no exceptions" kind of deal... meaning sasuke as well... not to mention, Kisame did seem like he was too familiar with the death of the clan; it was just something he "heard about"...

Itachi at 11 be a Sannin level?, yeah it is a pretty crazy concept, but we go again to Kakashi's quotes “There are people younger than X but are stronger than Y.”

Well part of my point is that at the age of 11, without the MS, he would not be considered as strong as a sannin, or porbably even stronger then Kakashi... the MS makes all the difference

I would call it trying to use any means to prove your point since the beginning “Itachi feet into killing Uchiha clan could not have been done without the help of a Mass destruction Jutsu”

But guess what, there is no sign of Mass destruction Jutsu, in Fact there is no sign of Justus at all, Because Itachi single handily extinguish Konoha strongest Clan, more sign of struggle you ask for? What for?, In fact the better the Shinoby is, the less traces of his activities you will find.

I no longer think that Mass destruction is the only method... right now i think he used sneak attacks, killing off most of his clan while they were off guard...

The reason i bring up the point of seeing signs of struggle were for those saying that he took the clan head on with, taking them down when they were at their best... If the clan truly was fighting Itachi, then no doubt THEY, not he, would have thrown out some pretty big jutsus to fight him... half the buildings would probably be in flames from Katons...

I'm thinking that he killed them with sneak attacks... while i don't see him killing them head on at all believeable... i can see how he can kill them all off guard

I can picture the scene quite clearly in my head... Itachi coming home, killing his parents before they can "welcome home"... steping outside killing the first jounin that walks by and then killing everyone else around before they have the cahnce to "what happened?"... and then slipping into the shadows... going from house to house, killing his fellow ninja before they can say "What are doing here Itachi?"... bascially most of them would would be killed before they had any idea of what Itachi's intentions were... i can picute those 3 Jounins being the ones that actually seem kill someone soon enough to take out their weapons and charge at him; they would exchange a few blows but then be, out matched...

and it still quite a feat, even trying to kill ninja in this manner would be difficult for most other ninja... most would not be as silent, or quick and precise enough... but what i think is more impotrant was not that his slaughtering his clan shows off his strength, but that it shows just how plain evil he is...


i mean, you gys are probably right about some things i've said, such as the clans hesitation to kill and me overanaylzing the 3 jounins... though my sneak attack theory, doesn't need any of that atleast...

[Rurik]

Originally Posted by Slayerx

Which is why i think he talks of mental capacity, and not physical capacity... his massacre was limited to ONLY his family and friends... .

I think after he killed his best friend, and became more distant from the clan, his sentimental ties to them were almost non-existent.

Originally Posted by Slayerx

Well Itachi showed no such signs of fatigue at all... as for ataksuki... he joined them 2 years prior to the masscre... and the way he speaks about wanting to test himself, leads me to beilive he was doing it more of himself then for anyone... not to mention, if it was an ataksuki test, it probably would have been a "no exceptions" kind of deal... meaning sasuke as well... not to mention, Kisame did seem like he was too familiar with the death of the clan; it was just something he "heard about"....

Yeah, that what you said, makes more sense. And the fact also that the last time The members got together was 2 Years before the massacre, so is very possible that he was already in Akatsuki officially, but it could also be that he was a low tier Henchman before the massacre. but we have the problem and ask, where was Kisame in all of this, and why he said “I heard you killed” as if was something that happened before they where partners.

Originally Posted by Slayerx

Well part of my point is that at the age of 11, without the MS, he would not be considered as strong as a sannin, or porbably even stronger then Kakashi... the MS makes all the difference.

I have to Disagree in saying that maybe yes, He maybe not considered as strong as the Sannin without the MS, but I do think at the moment he was accepted in ANBU, he was as Strong as Kakashi.

Originally Posted by Slayerx

I no longer think that Mass destruction is the only method... right now i think he used sneak attacks, killing off most of his clan while they were off guard...

The reason i bring up the point of seeing signs of struggle were for those saying that he took the clan head on with, taking them down when they were at their best... If the clan truly was fighting Itachi, then no doubt THEY, not he, would have thrown out some pretty big jutsus to fight him... half the buildings would probably be in flames from Katons...

I'm thinking that he killed them with sneak attacks... while i don't see him killing them head on at all believeable... i can see how he can kill them all off guard

I can picture the scene quite clearly in my head... Itachi coming home, killing his parents before they can "welcome home"... steping outside killing the first jounin that walks by and then killing everyone else around before they have the cahnce to "what happened?"... and then slipping into the shadows... going from house to house, killing his fellow ninja before they can say "What are doing here Itachi?"... bascially most of them would would be killed before they had any idea of what Itachi's intentions were... i can picute those 3 Jounins being the ones that actually seem kill someone soon enough to take out their weapons and charge at him; they would exchange a few blows but then be, out matched...

and it still quite a feat, even trying to kill ninja in this manner would be difficult for most other ninja... most would not be as silent, or quick and precise enough... but what i think is more impotrant was not that his slaughtering his clan shows off his strength, but that it shows just how plain evil he is... .

Is a long quote, The facts in the Manga don’t agree with parts of your theory, signs of a war was shown, bodies where lying on the street and not in houses, Shuriken where scattered here and there, Blood where all over the walls and on the stret, maybe he did enter to houses to continue his killing spree, but the fact remains that he did encountered people and fight them in the street, we have to take in account that we are not talking about a normal section of Konoha, we are talking in a section where people where still working, in a police force, He might have kill, some in sneak attack, but we are talking about elite ninja, Shinoby that are never caught of guard. the 3 Uchihas, Kurenai and Kakshi, are fine example on how Itachi can kill several people at the same time without moving a lot and without been harmed.

Maybe Itachi didn’t get to the plaza Uchiha, and yell “Calling all Uchiha’s” and then after the entire population was together fight then, I rather think is more problable that he was killing at will, Killing some off-guard as you say, and some he faced head on. again it would be rahter comical that He Killed Uchihas police (Konoha law upholders)not having a clue what was happening.

[Sazelyt]

If there is some kind of inconsistency, can we assume that Itachi lied about measuring his capacity?

In my opinion, it is also interesting that Itachi only killed Uchihas. Maybe Uchiha clan was his starting point (assuming they would pose the greatest danger - police force, etc. ), until he came across Sasuke, and after using MS on Sasuke he ran out of power. Or maybe he decided he would be discovered or would risk his life (we know that he is not that courageous) if he had continued.

Capacity in terms of strength does not fit well, since if a person wants to measure his strength, the first place he should go is the Hokage, not his family. The other view, emotional capacity, doesn't seem to fit well either, since he should have tested that at the time he gained MS after killing his best friend (or after he lost some part of his humanity).

[Rurik]

Originally Posted by Sazelyt

If there is some kind of inconsistency, can we assume that Itachi lied about measuring his capacity?

In my opinion, it is also interesting that Itachi only killed Uchihas. Maybe Uchiha clan was his starting point (assuming they would pose the greatest danger - police force, etc. ), until he came across Sasuke, and after using MS on Sasuke he ran out of power. Or maybe he decided he would be discovered or would risk his life (we know that he is not that courageous) if he had continued.

Capacity in terms of strength does not fit well, since if a person wants to measure his strength, the first place he should go is the Hokage, not his family. The other view, emotional capacity, doesn't seem to fit well either, since he should have tested that at the time he gained MS after killing his best friend (or after he lost some part of his humanity).

Maybe he just wanted to test his strength by killing those his despise the most.

Or maybe he knew his capacity had a limit, and let say, facing directly the Hokage, was above his capacity, But Destroying one clan, is a perfect test for it, Facing other clan can’t do, he would just be admitting that Other Family are stronger than the Uchiha, If you asked me I doubt that Itachi even tough others clan are strong enough to really measure his capacity.

[Sazelyt]

Originally Posted by Uchiha_Rurik

Maybe he just wanted to test his strength by killing those his despise the most.

Or maybe he knew his capacity had a limit, and let say, facing directly the Hokage, was above his capacity, But Destroying one clan, is a perfect test for it, Facing other clan can’t do, he would just be admitting that Other Family are stronger than the Uchiha, If you asked me I doubt that Itachi even tough others clan are as strong enough to really measure his capacity.

There is a slight inconsistency. If he avoided facing Hokage assuming it would be above his capacity, I guess we can say the same thing about another clan (especially Hyuuga). I don't think he will have a fun time against the whole Hyuuga clan. He knows the Uchihas since he is an Uchiha. But, that may not be the case for Hyuuga or any other clan. Also, paralel to what you are saying, a Hokage might seem to be worth more than the whole of the Uchiha clan (i.e., he would just be admitting that Other Family are stronger than the Uchiha), which may not be the real case. I would have considered the strength comparison - as you mentioned - if he had fought in a fair way, but I don't think that was the case - maybe he just knocked the door and without anyone suspecting him killed them (in that case what a great display of strength!).

[Rurik]

Originally Posted by Sazelyt

There is a slight inconsistency. If he avoided facing Hokage assuming it would be above his capacity, I guess we can say the same thing about another clan (especially Hyuuga). I don't think he will have a fun time against the whole Hyuuga clan..

Well, Maybe For Itachi he wanted to know his capacity, but he knew at least some limits to this capacity, not to mention Killing the Hokage is a more noticeable thing, and he would just be asking the entire village on him by the moment the tries to do this. Not so with The Uchihas, where he was capable of Killing all of them, have enough time to talk to Sasuke and leave, A fight with Sandaime will have meant a Great burden on him, knowing that 5 Years later he was still treating this kind of Shinoby in a cautious matter.

Regarding Hyugas and any other clan, I think is rather simple, “I wont test my capacity on this clans, because they are not as strong as the Uchiha’s, so I would not feel that what I’m seeking is going to be fulfilled” , Maybe this is wrong and Killing the Uchiha is more to it that just a measure of capacity, or as you mentioned, this could just be a lie from Itachi.

[Sazelyt]

Originally Posted by Uchiha_Rurik

“I wont test my capacity on this clans, because they are not as strong as the Uchiha’s, so I would not feel that what I’m seeking is going to be fulfilled”

Another thing that bothers me is how he killed all the Uchiha clan members (other than Sasuke). Uchiha members are forming the police force. What kind of police force is that? All clan members in the police force gather at one place waiting for their death in the hands of Itachi at that night (they are not on duty or at the police center). Or did Itachi actually search for all the Uchiha members in Konoha (imo, that would seem a little stupid but no worries at the moment)?

That should have been mentioned earlier, but why did he kill the members that cannot even have any strength? I believe that there should be at least one Uchiha baby or an Uchiha child younger than Sasuke. If that was really the case, none had survived. If Itachi can validate his capacity measure approach by killing those babies, why not kill the weaker clans.

After those discussions, it seems to me that getting rid of the Uchiha clan may not be Itachi's idea, but something enforced on him to display his capacity to some others (the originators of the Uchiha annihilation idea). I don't know why, but Orochimaru comes to my mind right now.