2013-02-19, 07:16 | Link #241 |
Logician and Romantic
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Within my mind
Age: 43
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Chaos means chance that something would go wrong. But I do agree that you need chaos to make improvements.
The concept of perfection is that in theory it never needs to change... But we both know there is no such thing. So you are right that chaos is needed for unexpected improvements to pop up and be adopted. But those who only care about Order and keeping everything stable would think otherwise.
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2013-02-20, 06:07 | Link #242 | |||||||
maybenotimome
Join Date: Feb 2011
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if you're being referencing what touma said about his god complex, also remember as touma himself said they retain their individual thinking, so it's stated nowhere they all have the same exact viewpoint about the sibyl, rather it's the exact opposite since each member is supposed to be different from the others, so touma could even be the only one to have a god complex (i'm extremizing, but using association from touma to all the others is what i'm not agreeing with) i'm using some quotes too Quote:
the symptoms of psychopathy are: shallow emotions, coldheartedness, egocentricity, superficial charm, manipulativeness, irresponsibility, impulsivity, criminality, antisocial behavior, a lack of remorse, and a parasitic lifestyle (from wiki) so psychopathy includes the requirements of the sibyl system, making so touma and shouma fit, but has also lots of other symptoms the sibyl doesn't requires and most arguments/opinions using the "all brains are psychopaths" make use of the full list of symptoms of psychopathy, adding so traits like criminality=compulsive violence, which are not stated anywhere in the show as being "desired talents" Quote:
"criminally asymptomatic" should only mean what touma said Quote:
the "doing horrible things" is mostly limited to acts already done, while we've seen in the serie(sadly only/mostly at the start) cases where people were hunted down or got a crime coefficient before they came to do crimes (while in the rest of the serie the psycho-pass was only used to track down already happened crimes :/) an other very important part is what is considered a crime by the sibyl, like all those people being imprisoned as latent criminals, or some enforcers, like masaoka and yayoi so being "criminally asymptomatic" in those cases doesn't require neither a "doing horrible things", and like for the "illegal music" for yayoi, there are plenty of ways to get caught in the act while doing some "crime" by the sibyl standards and if there was any of the people caught in the act while clearly doing something "illegal" but having a clear hue, wouldn't them be "criminally asymptomatic" too? i personally think yes and given the ammount of latent criminals imprisoned, suggesting very strict law about anything we normally don't consider a crime, i would think non-violent crimes are more frequent than violent crimes in the sibyl world compared to the real world, making so possible to have more peaceful/no-violent "criminally asymptomatic" (again for crimes we normally wouldn't even consider crimes) than violent "criminally asymptomatic" like shouma and touma Quote:
i was instead inferring that full psychopaths are the weak point/flaw of the sibyl system, on a systemic point of view, not morally or philosophically that aside i'm not a big fan of the "follow what the author says" "think what the author wants you to think", if while watching a show i end up doing so that's a merit of the author for exposing well his/her theme, if not i don't feel the need to adapt to it Quote:
because if one sees it as being the mean to reach social harmony and stability, the moment you reach those you no longer need the mean, or not as much, if not for other minor aims |
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2013-02-20, 06:23 | Link #243 | |
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If the world achieved nigh-perfect social harmony by 1960, and it continued on for several decades after that, would the necessary impetus had existed for the internet to come into existence in the 80s and 90s? In many cases, inventions are created because people see holes and problems in society that need to be fixed. Or human vulnerabilities/weaknesses that need to be alleviated. This isn't true for all inventions, but it's true for a great many of them. I'm not saying that social harmony isn't valuable. It certainly is. But if it comes about by artificial means, by "dumbing down" or sheepifying the people, then it's really a false social harmony.
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2013-02-20, 06:51 | Link #244 | |
maybenotimome
Join Date: Feb 2011
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@tripleR sure i'm glad internet exist, but i'm sad or depressed with not it? can't i live without it? is it required for my living happily?
absolutely not (also, i've seen that reply being used some times, but it's basically just changing subject) so you're agreeing with me that inventions, coming from societal evolution, are needed to "fix holes and problems in society people see in" or to "alleviate human vulnerabilities/weaknesses"? and isn't the lack of those problems, part of "social harmony and stability" ? Quote:
but if it comes with no artificial means, with no false social harmony? Last edited by zeando; 2013-02-20 at 07:02. |
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2013-02-20, 06:52 | Link #245 | |
Eaten by goats
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Rokkenjima
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It's possible that Sybil is picking "no/low empathy+ people who see themselves as outside observers + irregular personalities + outside acceptable human conventions" people who are not psychopaths, but unless and until future info adds something to this, I think it's likely that they're predominantly picking psychopaths. Touma is not saying this outright, but he is not someone who would say "Makishima, the Sybil system wants to recruit really intellectual psychopaths". What he would say (if that is how the system is) is...pretty much what he actually did say. No, that's not part of the reasoning. It's something which becomes groan-inducingly unsubtle after seeing that the Sybil system is probably made of psychopaths. (Really, Urobuchi?) |
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2013-02-20, 07:13 | Link #246 | |||
maybenotimome
Join Date: Feb 2011
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someone who would add no "new ideology and sense of values", and who would not "expand its range of thinking and gained new possibilities"? i'm taking the requirements for granted, i'm talking about what is left from the requirements or else it would be like saying that all the people doing the same work are all similarly minded, and untill proven otherwise all teachers think the same, all janitors think the same, all mechanical engineers think the same, and so on.. i'm not saying you're not allowed to think they're all psychos and stuff (=as saying you're incorrect or wrong) , it could even be possible, just you're sort of the first one clearly saying you like better to think so, while others looked so sure about it Last edited by zeando; 2013-02-20 at 07:53. |
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2013-02-21, 15:45 | Link #247 | ||
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I think the most sensible thing to assume by how it is depicted so far is that it is somehow related to brain function. Similar to how brain scans, heart rate detectors and lie detectors today measure biological changes and relate them to how a respectable amount of other peoples' data looked in the same situation, the crime coefficient seems to be based on some form of bio-scan that results in the form of a number. This would also explain how the term criminally asymptomatic is meant, which is people who fail to show a certain biological and psychological reaction similar to the majority of society. This is pretty much shown by how the helmet person who killed the woman he stalked copied the coefficient of people around him, who were so disabled of accepting criminal brutality as a part of reality, that they did not react to it being shown. And this plays into another point I wanted to address: Quote:
It is not people who are criminal psychopaths, remember those are eliminated on order of Sybil, they fall right into the category of criminally symptomatic people, they show all symptoms of being psychotic as dictated by the Sybil System. Criminally asymptomatic are those who fail to be inserted into this system, it's the people who fail to count as dangerous to the system, yet think outside of it. People like Oryou Rikako or Senguji Toyohisa, basically all the people who Makishima used may be psychotic, but they are apparently of no interest to the Sybil System, they are dangerous and destructive and add nothing else to society. The question is, what does Sybil do with the brains? I wouldn't even assume that it runs completely on those brains, as that would imply that Sybil would have functioned 'improperly' from it's creators perspective in the beginning. I'd rather say that Sybil improves it's view on society based on the input it gets from it's new brains and can use these perspectives to judge events. Why would a system need this? If Sybil was actually a system based only on the emotional processing of data, then perspective thinking would lack from the system. Adding different "perspective lenses" to the system that are not filtered by unnecessary emotion increases it's ability to govern humans who are still impaired by pesky emotional baggage. |
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2013-02-24, 05:44 | Link #249 | |
:cool:
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Idaho
Age: 32
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They can't be judged because they have no ethics, or morality. Their idea of right and wrong only stems from society, and only if they choose to try and make it their own. In theory, I can see how that would make for a great judge in the Sibyl System. These people that lack emotions and ethics, who are cold and calculating. Nothing to get in the way of them looking at someone who is a potential threat to society and saying that they are indeed a threat, even if they have a family and a reason for their madness.
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2013-02-24, 05:49 | Link #250 | |
Logician and Romantic
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Within my mind
Age: 43
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See, what you are after is someone who would obey the law and not let emotions get in the way. But if you hire psychos you just get people who don't care about emotions OR law. What you want isn't a psychopath, but a law abiding citizen like Akane. Someone who obey the law despite her emotions. Not because she don't have emotions, but because she actually care about the rule of law. Trying to hire psychos is actually faulty logic. A judge needs to follow rule of law. Being a psychopath does NOT make you lawful. And if you are okay with unlawful people being judges? You get the Sibyl system. Breaking rules left and right because it wants to. Because it doesn't care.
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2013-02-24, 17:51 | Link #253 | |||
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Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Idaho
Age: 32
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2013-02-24, 18:16 | Link #254 | |
18782+18782=37564
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: InterWebs
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2013-02-24, 18:49 | Link #255 | |
:cool:
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Idaho
Age: 32
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It's a downside, undeniably. The thing to look at is that the majority of the time the system is doing exactly what it's supposed to do.
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2013-02-24, 19:39 | Link #256 | |
18782+18782=37564
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: InterWebs
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