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Angelic Cross · 2013-06-28, 04:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by shmaster

Metatron, is it because some divine retribution from your higher up that INDEX (the company that Atlus belongs to) going bankrupt today?

It was that or the giant space laser.

tripleshift · 2013-06-28, 04:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Angelic Cross

They had Lucifer and Satan hugging. The head of the Chaos faction and one of the biggest Law dudes hugging. I think that says it all with regards to the staff's sanity for those viewers familiar with Megami Tensei.

I was half expecting

Spoiler:

Dengar · 2013-06-28, 04:15

Metatron cannot help being one of the parts of the highest fusion.

Angelic Cross · 2013-06-28, 04:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by tripleshift

I was half expecting

Spoiler:

That's more of a Persona series thing, though, as amusing as it would be for Hibiki and Yamato to die from their own attacks.

eiyuu99 · 2013-06-28, 10:34

Then you get the gameover quote and Hibiki waking up?

Blizzard · 2013-06-29, 18:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dengar

Perhaps "insulting" was the wrong choice of words. I seem to have misinterpreted you. The way you quoted me and reacted to it made it seem like you had some kind of problem with what I said.

FRICK IT GOT LONG AGAIN

Naaaah, my "sick-of-it"tone is because of my personal history with the topic itself rather than the context. I kinda had to deal with a lot of Ronaldo vs. Yamato stuff in the past so I try to avoid talking about either of them least I get hives and start writing essays. As for what you said, hmm... How to say this. It's not wrong but it's not exactly right either? Like Meritocracy is a dog eat dog world but it's at least fair. Wait now that I think about it "fair" really is the best word before Egalitarians "equal"... dammit I'll go at another essay won't I?

In one world your efforts get rewarded and your talents get recognized accordingly and every position is held by those who can properly handle it. In hetalia terms, police are British, chefs are French, bankers are Swiss. And in the extended game version, once socializing with the protag changes Yamato's world view even things like teamwork and friendship get treated as different forms of strength.

But if you don't have any of these you plain don't have any means to survive (though it's not like the former world was hearts and flowers to begin with) And there's no sense of equality when even the slightest individual traits can make a difference in how far you can go and how you get treated. There's also the chance that ambition would run rampant but even then the positions people can acquire would be reached to fairly. While it may be fair though, it's still too harsh from a human perspective in that it limits how far long term compassion can go because humans are required to climb up in life through their own power. If they stop trying, then no one will hold their hand. You can teach someone how to fish but no fishing for them everyday no matter how talentless/lazy they are or how much you like them.

Basically yeah it still comes down to what you said, you do or you die. But there's still a lot of context to go through before you get there.

As far as voice actor interviews goes, animoto was also this but anime did a very shitty job of showing it unless you looked really hard with everyone's "boo-boo-big-bad-evil-Hotsuin" attitude until the very last episode and no one actually talking about ideals or what to do with the post. If it wasn't for Suwabe outright saying it I would've dismissed it as my own imagination. TBH it feels like the anime just went and missed the whole point of the game in favor of homo. Now don't get me wrong I love the homo but before that I'm a total plot whore.

Spoiler for I'M JUST RAMBLING AT MYSELF AT THIS POINT SO YEAH, CUT:

Anyway with the Egalitarian route. Everyone is equal. Yes it sound very nice and fluffy before "merit decides everything" but the implication of it are actually just as -or maybe even more- disturbing than Meritocracy? I'm sure I don't need to explain plus points of it since they're very obvious not unlike how the negative points of Meritocracy are. One sounds horrible but actually kinda decent. One sounds very idealistic but actually kinda wonky until they both meet in the same level of extremist social mess that makes you go "Eff you guys I'm gonna go Kingmaker" and elope with moe aliens on god quests.

*cough* err... anyway Egalitarian. Yamato's world was "fair" but not "equal". Similarly, Ronaldo's is "equal" but not "fair". For example if you're stuck on an island with limited supplies, the people who can gather food, build a raft and maximize the chances of survival for everyone get the same share as people who are on the brink of dying or unable to help out with everything. Of course the ideal ending would be for everyone to get out of this situation alive and well but when that is impossible, sharing everything equally while letting everyone gradually weaken and die one by one would destroy whatever chances some of those people might have. Which is not unlike the state of Japan back there.

And while this stimulation is for extreme situations that programming doesn't work all that well in daily life either.Maybe "Tall Poppy Syndrome" describes it the best. Just going by helping each other out thing now. Imagine a frail person who stays at home relaxing for the day. Then a capable person who runs around the city saving people, moving rubbles, fighting demons, disturbing supplies, organizing people and having a generally busy day. Is it really okay for the one who was lying around the whole day and one who can collapse from exhaustion any minute to get the same amount of food because that's exactly how Ronaldo's equality work. Nevermind that the amount of nutrients they need is different everyone gets the same treatment.

Even if you're smarter then most, you'll go to the same schools and have the same opportunities. Even if you're a Fumi who works as hard as a no-weekends-or-holidays Yamato you'll get the same salary as a Joe who lives his life like a pre-game Daichi. Same recognition and same resources. The moment you say "Let's treat them like they deserve." or "Isn't it okay to decide their treatment by their merit." THAT'S MERITOCRACY! And this is assuming jobs with standard hierarchy would still be there. Egalitarian itself is nulls the concept of promotion. Hell, technically a housewife and a professor who aim for the same engineering job would have ~equal~ chances. Nevermind their respective talent or hard work up to that point.

If you worked hard to build a vegetable garden to grow some tomatoes, you'd have to share them with everyone because everyone is equal in what they eat or wear or everything. If you ran faster than everyone else to use the hot water in showers, they'd still open to the slowest persons speed. If you do ANYTHING AT ALL it wouldn't matter because the worst of you would still have equal claim on everything. In such a world most would why would you ever try to do anything in such a world when the programming itself forces you to give up all the fruits of your hardwork and labor.

Even if you're made to enjoy such unfair giving and sharing through brainwashing, you will never have the opportunity to do your best because you're EQUAL and you will be given the same resources as everyone else. If you grow the best tomatoes while your neighbor always make theirs rot, you will still have the same amount of earth to work with even though you can dish out twice the input with no effort at all. Not to mention how hypocritical such world is considering it's roots because friendly reminder;

a) Fumi's department was cut blank check and JPs technology pulled the world through more or less everything.
b) Talented summoners who fought Septentrions and JPs officers who supported them were fed and provided over everyone else .
c) Shiva was summoned by Hinako's efforts who's recognized as a both talented and hardworking dancer .
d) Mizar could only be defeated by risking Io's life.
e) Basically every single hard choice Yamato ever made.
f) Also the fact that they would've hardly made it to even day 3 without Yamato heck he's not nice or even all that good but he was the functional Big Good and they kinda owe him a lot even disregarding his Heoric Sacrifce in Ronaldo route.

Going by the 1-5-10 choices above, you wouldn't have 5 choices for everyone in Egalitarian. Everyone would have 1 choices each because that's the most some people can have and everyone must be ~equal~. Actually, most arguments against this can be answered with "But then that would be meritocracy."

To summarize, Triumphant BANZAI~~

Dengar · 2013-06-30, 07:41

I haven't read it all, but the things I did read, I cannot completely deny. But for the meritocracy, I cannot help but feel sorry for the talentless. It's not all their fault. While effort can make up for SOME things, it cannot make up for EVERYTHING, else everyone would be olympic or einstein level, so in the end it comes down to talent. If you don't have it, a meritocracy will never accept you.

I also acknowledge that an Egalitarian world has the opposite problem of not recognizing those with talent. In the end, you're damned if you do, and you're damned if you don't.

At least in the world how it is now, effort occasionally gets rewarded.

Blizzard · 2013-06-30, 07:57

Basically yeah. I'll take an unpredictable world of possibilities over a a world of pre-decided limitations any day. (Oh wait! "limiting possibilities" is a very good word for what both those ideologies do too. Yay English.) And so Triumphant. Though I'm pretty sure Kingmaker would've been my favorite if not for the casualties from those 8 days, nameless or NPC. Here's hoping Break Record scenario will allow us to install Moe Alien on the heavenly throne without screwing over rest of the world

And gosh I'm so sorry I have a hard time finding words for things I want to convey. I kinda never properly learned English outside egregious internet use.

Oh I forgot to add but effort also stands side by side with talent in those worlds as far as recognizing or dismissing them goes.

Dengar · 2013-06-30, 08:24

Effort is meaningless if someone else has a higher aptitude for the thing you're trying to do though.

Blizzard · 2013-06-30, 08:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dengar

Effort is meaningless if someone else has a higher aptitude for the thing you're trying to do though.

But then talent is also meaningless if you don't make use of it so it's more like talent<effort<effort+talent since we only saw people rewarded for their deeds/education/comradeship and stuff instead of dormant talents in the Meritocracy ending and no one would even KNOW you have a talent unless you show and hone it to begin with. Well, merit here can somewhat translate into to how useful you are to the society or how well you do at your job to deserve it. I still find it better than the Egalitarian ending where none of it, nothing you do matters and humanity is pretty much destined to rot and die. At least there they have a chance of progress.

eiyuu99 · 2013-06-30, 08:51

Meritocracy, egalitarian and the present world have their merits and flaws.

The present world also has pre-decided limitations among its possibilities.
People need to change, as seen in Triumphant Restorer

Meritocracy also rewards effort.
A corporal was promoted for his efforts while the commander, who got his position through family influence, is dismissed due to incompetence.

Dengar · 2013-06-30, 11:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blizzard

But then talent is also meaningless if you don't make use of it so it's more like talent<effort<effort+talent since we only saw people rewarded for their deeds/education/comradeship and stuff instead of dormant talents in the Meritocracy ending and no one would even KNOW you have a talent unless you show and hone it to begin with. Well, merit here can somewhat translate into to how useful you are to the society or how well you do at your job to deserve it. I still find it better than the Egalitarian ending where none of it, nothing you do matters and humanity is pretty much destined to rot and die. At least there they have a chance of progress.

All it takes is one person with more talent than you to make all your "normal" effort useless, so talent is the only thing that matters.

Quote:

Originally Posted by eiyuu99

Meritocracy, egalitarian and the present world have their merits and flaws.

The present world also has pre-decided limitations among its possibilities.
People need to change, as seen in Triumphant Restorer

Meritocracy also rewards effort.
A corporal was promoted for his efforts while the commander, who got his position through family influence, is dismissed due to incompetence.

That corporal was probably talented, and in Yamato's world, that commander wouldn't exist.

Shadow5YA · 2013-06-30, 15:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dengar

All it takes is one person with more talent than you to make all your "normal" effort useless, so talent is the only thing that matters.

Yamato himself does not mind being replaced as long as someone puts enough effort to do it. He states this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dengar

That corporal was probably talented, and in Yamato's world, that commander wouldn't exist.

No, in Yamato's world that commander would either work just as hard to keep his position or step down "willingly" because everyone is made to think the same way.

It's also a little questionable to argue whether a successful person is talented or if it's the other way around. At one point you begin to make circular argument (talent brings success, success is only possible with talent) where you're disregarding the fact that even "talented" people have to put in the effort to come out on top.

Yamato wants people to put in effort and give out results, not make a world emphasizing latent ability. That's the entire reason why he and Al Saiduq went their separate ways in the first place. Yamato doesn't have the faith to believe humanity can fare well with the freedom of choice.

p-kun · 2013-06-30, 19:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dengar

All it takes is one person with more talent than you to make all your "normal" effort useless, so talent is the only thing that matters.

Pick your poison. Would you rather that a talented (and hardworking) person beat your hardwork in Yamato's world? Or would you rather that a rich brat beat your hardwork in the current world? Or would you rather that a lazy bum beat your hardwork in Ronaldo's world?

Angelic Cross · 2013-06-30, 20:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by p-kun

Or would you rather that a lazy bum beat your hardwork in Ronaldo's world?

Agreed, though I take exception to anyone actually doing hard work in Ronaldo's world.

Everyone there just does the minimum amount of work necessary. Nobody excels. Nobody explores. Nobody goes beyond the limits. Being Kamina is a crime in that world. A wonderful world of pure, pathetic mediocrity.

maplehurry · 2013-06-30, 20:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by p-kun

Or would you rather that a lazy bum beat your hardwork in Ronaldo's world?

Technically speaking, Polaris changed human nature there so noone there was very lazy I think. Noone tried super hard, but none super lazy either.

Progress stagnated but everyone was willing to help out when asked.

The poison in Ronaldo's world is someone incompetent(but not lazy) may be able to become a doctor, for example.

Blizzard · 2013-07-01, 00:36

I'd also like to hear what's so wrong with a talented and hard working person getting into the positions to improve the society and holding the responsibilities for their thing. It seems like an incredibly selfish thing to complain about from over here.

Harangue · 2013-07-01, 02:13

I just found it aggravating that someone who had thrown away the basic faculties of his own humanity, someone who lacked all but the faintest hint of emotion and even then swallowed those and tossed them aside, believed he knew what was best for an entire world of individuals who all have differing views down to the slightest degree. Man is a social animal, it is written within our DNA to desire to be around others, to be accepted or loved by others. Essentially, an inhuman monster was intending on eradicating the whole of humanity from existence and replacing it with his own skewed ideals.

A computer may be able to use statistics to assume what you will do 99% of the time, but just like Fumi said herself, nothing is ever 100% as humans will never be God. Even as Yamato literally stood before God he still was not in control and still could not comprehend this fact.

A world shaped by a single man who puts raw talents above every other part of human life, including their capacity for compassion, is a world of nothing more than soulless automatons that may think and move but will never question why it is they exist or why they continue to exist. A world without compassion, a world without culture or individualism, where only physical and mental traits matter and all who lag slightly behind are seen as nothing more than useless garbage, that is a world of nothing but Death. It would continue unto eternity, with humanity never gaining anything or learning anything about themselves or the universe within which they reside.

It's a world based on Darwinism where only the most advanced will thrive, but to such an extreme degree as to lead humanity to become something wholly unrecognizable as what it once was. In the end, as Hibiki mentions, Yamato's world was "voluntary death", it was the entire erasure of what humanity was, their whole existence was to be wiped out of time, and in its place would have been nothing more than a cold, lifeless mannequin that somewhat resembled humanity, but lacking what made them human.

And that is what I thought of it.

That is not to say, of course, that there are certain points within his ambitions that could improve the world, should they be implemented by someone who is not either Super Hitler or Mother Teresa like Yamato and Hibiki. Someone who actually has some substance and is not totally one-sided. Honestly, though, that would ultimately fall to humanity itself to change.

p-kun · 2013-07-01, 02:48

^^ I don't understand why you judge the merit of an idea based on how much you like or hate the personality of the person proposing it. I'm getting Ronaldo deja vu.

Blizzard · 2013-07-01, 03:42

Sometimes I think of how much time and space we would save if people paused a moment to read what others posted before them and weep. This must be the fourth time evil-boo-boo Yamato mess restarted in this thread alone. Is it really any wonder I'm exhausted? And inhuman? Unfeeling? Monster? Really? As far as feelings go he's actually the most intense *coughyanderecough* of the whole cast right up there with Ronaldo's rage issues. And after all those long winded expositions of his character the last two episode practically revolved around in favor of actually revelant stuff? Even disregarding the more detailed game characterization that's still really hurtful. Short version; Yamato is a wonderful piece of shit and a precious jerkass who makes you weep from do-I-snuggle-or-do-I-punch-in-the-face confusion. Long version; scroll back on the thread I cannot be essay or spellcheck from phone.

2013-06-30, 07:57	Link #388
Blizzard KIRABOSHI☆!!! Join Date: Nov 2008 Age: 32	Basically yeah. I'll take an unpredictable world of possibilities over a a world of pre-decided limitations any day. (Oh wait! "limiting possibilities" is a very good word for what both those ideologies do too. Yay English.) And so Triumphant. Though I'm pretty sure Kingmaker would've been my favorite if not for the casualties from those 8 days, nameless or NPC. Here's hoping Break Record scenario will allow us to install Moe Alien on the heavenly throne without screwing over rest of the world And gosh I'm so sorry I have a hard time finding words for things I want to convey. I kinda never properly learned English outside egregious internet use. Oh I forgot to add but effort also stands side by side with talent in those worlds as far as recognizing or dismissing them goes. Last edited by Blizzard; 2013-06-30 at 08:16.

2013-06-30, 08:51	Link #391
eiyuu99 Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2008	Meritocracy, egalitarian and the present world have their merits and flaws. The present world also has pre-decided limitations among its possibilities. People need to change, as seen in Triumphant Restorer Meritocracy also rewards effort. A corporal was promoted for his efforts while the commander, who got his position through family influence, is dismissed due to incompetence. Last edited by eiyuu99; 2013-06-30 at 09:06.

2013-07-01, 02:13	Link #398
Harangue The Little Monster Join Date: May 2013 Location: On the Edge. Age: 31	I just found it aggravating that someone who had thrown away the basic faculties of his own humanity, someone who lacked all but the faintest hint of emotion and even then swallowed those and tossed them aside, believed he knew what was best for an entire world of individuals who all have differing views down to the slightest degree. Man is a social animal, it is written within our DNA to desire to be around others, to be accepted or loved by others. Essentially, an inhuman monster was intending on eradicating the whole of humanity from existence and replacing it with his own skewed ideals. A computer may be able to use statistics to assume what you will do 99% of the time, but just like Fumi said herself, nothing is ever 100% as humans will never be God. Even as Yamato literally stood before God he still was not in control and still could not comprehend this fact. A world shaped by a single man who puts raw talents above every other part of human life, including their capacity for compassion, is a world of nothing more than soulless automatons that may think and move but will never question why it is they exist or why they continue to exist. A world without compassion, a world without culture or individualism, where only physical and mental traits matter and all who lag slightly behind are seen as nothing more than useless garbage, that is a world of nothing but Death. It would continue unto eternity, with humanity never gaining anything or learning anything about themselves or the universe within which they reside. It's a world based on Darwinism where only the most advanced will thrive, but to such an extreme degree as to lead humanity to become something wholly unrecognizable as what it once was. In the end, as Hibiki mentions, Yamato's world was "voluntary death", it was the entire erasure of what humanity was, their whole existence was to be wiped out of time, and in its place would have been nothing more than a cold, lifeless mannequin that somewhat resembled humanity, but lacking what made them human. And that is what I thought of it. That is not to say, of course, that there are certain points within his ambitions that could improve the world, should they be implemented by someone who is not either Super Hitler or Mother Teresa like Yamato and Hibiki. Someone who actually has some substance and is not totally one-sided. Honestly, though, that would ultimately fall to humanity itself to change. Last edited by Harangue; 2013-07-01 at 02:23.

2013-06-28, 04:15	Link #383
Dengar Kamen Rider Muppeteer Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Unknown Age: 39	Metatron cannot help being one of the parts of the highest fusion.

2013-06-28, 10:34	Link #385
eiyuu99 Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2008	Then you get the gameover quote and Hibiki waking up?

2013-06-30, 07:41	Link #387
Dengar Kamen Rider Muppeteer Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Unknown Age: 39	I haven't read it all, but the things I did read, I cannot completely deny. But for the meritocracy, I cannot help but feel sorry for the talentless. It's not all their fault. While effort can make up for SOME things, it cannot make up for EVERYTHING, else everyone would be olympic or einstein level, so in the end it comes down to talent. If you don't have it, a meritocracy will never accept you. I also acknowledge that an Egalitarian world has the opposite problem of not recognizing those with talent. In the end, you're damned if you do, and you're damned if you don't. At least in the world how it is now, effort occasionally gets rewarded.

2013-06-30, 08:24	Link #389
Dengar Kamen Rider Muppeteer Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Unknown Age: 39	Effort is meaningless if someone else has a higher aptitude for the thing you're trying to do though.

2013-07-01, 00:36	Link #397
Blizzard KIRABOSHI☆!!! Join Date: Nov 2008 Age: 32	I'd also like to hear what's so wrong with a talented and hard working person getting into the positions to improve the society and holding the responsibilities for their thing. It seems like an incredibly selfish thing to complain about from over here.

2013-07-01, 02:48	Link #399
p-kun Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2009	^^ I don't understand why you judge the merit of an idea based on how much you like or hate the personality of the person proposing it. I'm getting Ronaldo deja vu.

2013-07-01, 03:42	Link #400
Blizzard KIRABOSHI☆!!! Join Date: Nov 2008 Age: 32	Sometimes I think of how much time and space we would save if people paused a moment to read what others posted before them and weep. This must be the fourth time evil-boo-boo Yamato mess restarted in this thread alone. Is it really any wonder I'm exhausted? And inhuman? Unfeeling? Monster? Really? As far as feelings go he's actually the most intense coughyanderecough of the whole cast right up there with Ronaldo's rage issues. And after all those long winded expositions of his character the last two episode practically revolved around in favor of actually revelant stuff? Even disregarding the more detailed game characterization that's still really hurtful. Short version; Yamato is a wonderful piece of shit and a precious jerkass who makes you weep from do-I-snuggle-or-do-I-punch-in-the-face confusion. Long version; scroll back on the thread I cannot be essay or spellcheck from phone.