Gundam Seed/Seed Destiny General Discussion Thread

[zeroexia]

Originally Posted by Kurohane

^ I can agree with this statement. Kira has been shown just as good as being a melee fighter as Athrun. It's just the Freedom isn't as centered on that as the Justice. Same with the Destiny, it was balanced with a beam rifle and cannon as long range, with an anti-beam sword, the pulse palms and two beamerangs or what you call them as melee. It was a pretty averaged out mobile suit.


Also, dang, Destined_Fate got banned? I saw it coming for a while now, but still, I can't believe it.

I would probably place the rankings more closely too. I'm disregarding the Gundams themselves and considering what we've actually seen the pilots do.

Athrun - Melee 10, Ranged 8
Kira - Melee 9, Ranged 10
Shinn - Melee 8.5, Ranged 8


For Athrun, the two Justices and Aegis were heavily invested in melee and the Saviour was ehh, he had the worst track record with it.( Playing a role in his defeat. ) His high melee score would be mainly due to his experience with melee based Gundams and he did beat Shinn and Kira in melee. (Although it is worth noting that Kira did beat Athrun with Sword Strike resulting in the death of Nicol "He loved the piano. " Amalfi. )

For Kira, we see he is extremely skilled in melee with only beam sabers. He's able to precisely use the beam saber to disable mobile suits at extremely high speeds. He even did some Jedi trick with deflecting Providence's DRAGOON beams multiple times and the extremely ridiculous blade catch of Destiny. Considering he only has beam sabers and yet uses them extremely well, I would rank him a little lower than Athrun.

For Shinn, his melee record is spotty. His entire fighting style is sloppy to begin with. (Usually rushing in stupidly, especially after he got Destiny.)

He actually downgraded his melee skill when he upgraded to the Destiny Gundam. When he faced Kira with Impulse, Kira was able to disable both the head and arm in the melee exchange but it didn't matter since Shinn could replace them. However with Destiny, he can't replace parts. This is how he lost against Athrun who was able to dismember Destiny every time with the IJ. And later on when he fought against Kira in the SF, he tried to use the Destiny Finger but got kicked in the face and when he rushed with the sword, Kira did that ridiculous blade catch. The Impulse's ability to replace parts fits his fighting style much better than Destiny's. (Considering he loses them frequently.) His and Athrun's ranged skill don't show much difference in effectiveness.

Honestly Kira's melee skill is closer to Athrun than to Shinn but that's because of all his ridiculous feats. Blade-catching, Beam-Deflecting, High Speed Disablement, etc.

It's pretty weird how Kira could do so well even though he didn't pilot or even touch a mobile suit for 2 whole years. Even Amuro was a trainer in an academy before Zeta. They should have given Kira some time to start learning how to pilot again, would have made more sense.

[Kurohane]

Okay, why was the blade catch unbelievable? I find the beam deflecting more unbelievable than that.

[monster]

Originally Posted by Kurohane

Okay, why was the blade catch unbelievable? I find the beam deflecting more unbelievable than that.

Actually, considering the beams are apparently slow enough to evade, even in small areas as evidenced by Shinn doing it with the Impulse, I'd say the beam deflecting is believable within the context of CE technology.

As for the blade catch, the only problem I have with it is the position of the beam shields. I'm not into gunpla, so I don't know if the shield emitters could be repositioned. or maybe not. I guess if it has multiple emitters and it can selectively use them, I can see how it would work.

[zeroexia]

Originally Posted by Kurohane

Okay, why was the blade catch unbelievable? I find the beam deflecting more unbelievable than that.

Well, I think I've seen beam deflection happen in other Gundam series, I forgot where. But I never saw blade catching like Kira did with SF.

Kira threw his beam rifles into the air. Used his beam shields and caught the blade with his golden hands.
He then uses the railguns to blast Shinn and throw away the blade. Then the beam rifles fall back down and he catches them again, doing a pose.

In that one instance, Kira was able to put down Shinn, even making Shinn acknowledge that Kira could have killed him if he wanted to.

The rifles coming back at just the right time is what seems the most ridiculous to me. I mean how could Kira time that?

[monster]

Originally Posted by zeroexia

The rifles coming back at just the right time is what seems ridiculous.

Well, I guess it's supposed to have happened quickly, just slowed down for dramatic purpose.

[zeroexia]

Originally Posted by monster

Actually, considering the beams are apparently slow enough to evade, even in small areas as evidenced by Shinn doing it with the Impulse, I'd say the beam deflecting is believable within the context of CE technology.

As for the blade catch, the only problem I have with it is the position of the beam shields. I'm not into gunpla, so I don't know if the shield emitters could be repositioned. or maybe not. I guess if it has multiple emitters and it can selectively use them, I can see how it would work.

Gundam beams in all series are generally slow enough to evade and deflect. So it isn't unbelievable in any Gundam series. It's merely faster and better to just dodge the beam.

The beam shields in CE can basically make any shape they want but are less durable? Kira's beam shields protect him from Rey's DRAGOONs but then they fail right after that.

But then again in UC, the beam shields use the same principle as the beam sabers. In CE, the beam sabers and beam shields use totally different tech.

[zeroexia]

Originally Posted by monster

Well, I guess it's supposed to have happened quickly, just slowed down for dramatic purpose.

I guess but that's makes it even more unbelievable. It's like Kira became Kenshin suddenly.

[monster]

Originally Posted by zeroexia

The beam shields in CE can basically make any shape they want

Yeah, my earlier comment was made when I mistakenly thought the shields were bent, which is not the case.

Anyway, speaking of the rifles, does anyone know how the Strike Freedom would mount both its rifles and rail cannons?

Originally Posted by zeroexia

I guess but that's makes it even more unbelievable. It's like Kira became Kenshin suddenly.

Kira is a juggler, with the help of technology.

[Aquaman OS]

Rail cannons fold behind the SF when the rifles are holstered. You can see it in the show the few times Kira is dual wielding the sabers with the SF.

[monster]

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

Rail cannons fold behind the SF when the rifles are holstered. You can see it in the show the few times Kira is dual wielding the sabers with the SF.

Ah, so I guess that's why Kira had to throw the rifles up instead of mounting them. Oh, good. I would hate to think they purposely made him throw it just for the sake of it.

Still, I kind of wish they could mount the rifles like next to the cannons. Sure, it would make the hips look fat, but the cannons would still be usable while the rifles are mounted. Ah, so many compromise in design.

[zeroexia]

Originally Posted by monster

Ah, so I guess that's why Kira had to throw the rifles up instead of mounting them. Oh, good. I would hate to think they purposely made him throw it just for the sake of it.

Still, I kind of wish they could mount the rifles like next to the cannons. Sure, it would make the hips look fat, but the cannons would still be usable while the rifles are mounted. Ah, so many compromise in design.

SF has a lot of compromises in design. Especially the wings. SF has Wings of Light but they don't show until the DRAGOONs are off. Makes me wish they would create Strike Freedom Custom that fixes the problems for the movie if it ever comes.

[CBredbeard]

Originally Posted by zeroexia

SF has a lot of compromises in design. Especially the wings. SF has Wings of Light but they don't show until the DRAGOONs are off. Makes me wish they would create Strike Freedom Custom that fixes the problems for the movie if it ever comes.

It's not a compromise if the goons thrusters are comparable to the Wings of Light. We actually have no real reason to think the wings are a more powerful engine.

[Rising Dragon]

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

To be fair the OPs pitching KiraxLacus from the start kind of suggests that was always the pairing they had in mind. Same with AthrunxCagalli. I don't think they seriously rewrote the pairing thanks to fan complaints or feedback.

Which is part of the bad writing I mentioned. Kira and Flay got meaningful development (remember that meaningful doesn't necessarily mean positive, though it was angling toward that in the end) in regards to the relationship, and then they killed her off abruptly at the end. And it's further contrasted with the poor handling they did towards Kira and Lacus' relationship (most of their interaction dealt with their feelings on the war), which had scant few moments that dealt with their relationship, and then after the huge timeskip they're in a relationship "because".

It was in poor taste either way, and Kira and Lacus' success in the eyes of the fanbase only makes it worse, because it sends the message that such poor writing is "acceptable".

[monster]

Originally Posted by zeroexia

SF has a lot of compromises in design. Especially the wings. SF has Wings of Light but they don't show until the DRAGOONs are off. Makes me wish they would create Strike Freedom Custom that fixes the problems for the movie if it ever comes.

Yeah, imagine if one of the DRAGOONs was destroyed. The Strike Freedom would look silly with a blue exhaust coming from one of its wings when the surviving DRAGOONs are mounted.

That's probably why Rey can't destroy even one of the Strike Freedom's DRAGOONs. We can't have that.

If they ever made a sequel or changes in the Remaster to have the Strike Freedom be damaged, the DRAGOONs would probably be destroyed in an even manner, or have all of them destroyed, so the Strike Freedom will still look balanced in some way.

[Rising Dragon]

Funny. I point out problems with the Strike Freedom and you guys lose your minds defending it. >.> You see problems with the Strike Freedom and it's a-ok to discuss it.

[monster]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

Funny. I point out problems with the Strike Freedom and you guys lose your minds defending it. >.> You see problems with the Strike Freedom and it's a-ok to discuss it.

Well, speaking for myself, if I ever defended the Strike Freedom, it's probably because I think the complaint isn't supported by the anime. I guess it depends on what you actually said when you pointed out whatever problem it was.

As for my recent posting, if you think there's something I've overlooked, feel free to point it out. There's no reason why you can't be the one to defend the Strike Freedom, for a change.

[Rising Dragon]

In this instance, I wouldn't. Due to how the anime depicts it, most people just shut their minds off and mindlessly defend it because it's Kira's. Otherwise it's still got problems with its wing design, which is still less flexible than the Freedom's and weighed down in atmosphere by the Super DRAGOON units, which are absolutely unnecessary for "thrusters" like the usual defense is whenever it's brought up.

Now, if the Destiny and Strike Freedom's propulsion systems had been properly depicted, both as far as speed and maneuverability, then yes, they'd both be justified in being "better" than the original Freedom's design. If they both had thrust vectoring, then they'd have better maneuverability than the Freedom despite the inflexibility of their wing binders, with the Strike Freedom's wing design only being marginally superior to that of the Destiny's by about two points.

However the anime shows no such usage of thrust vectoring and was shit in depicting the wings of light produced by both machines as faster than other suits, with grunts, the Akatsuki, Infinite Justice, and Legend all capable of keeping up with it, so for the most part the Freedom had just as much speed while being more maneuverable due to the flexibility of the wing binders and the various configurations they could form. In practice, the Freedom should actually out-fly the Strike Freedom in-atmosphere.

[zeroexia]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

Funny. I point out problems with the Strike Freedom and you guys lose your minds defending it. >.> You see problems with the Strike Freedom and it's a-ok to discuss it.

The SF, the Perfect Grade redesign specifically, is in my top 3 mobile suits. However that doesn't mean that it's perfect and it's funny to acknowledge the faults.

That chest cannon is also quite weirdly structured and its size and position seem to fluctuate in Gunpla, games and anime.

[zeroexia]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

In this instance, I wouldn't. Due to how the anime depicts it, most people just shut their minds off and mindlessly defend it because it's Kira's. Otherwise it's still got problems with its wing design, which is still less flexible than the Freedom's and weighed down in atmosphere by the Super DRAGOON units, which are absolutely unnecessary for "thrusters" like the usual defense is whenever it's brought up.

Now, if the Destiny and Strike Freedom's propulsion systems had been properly depicted, both as far as speed and maneuverability, then yes, they'd both be justified in being "better" than the original Freedom's design. If they both had thrust vectoring, then they'd have better maneuverability than the Freedom despite the inflexibility of their wing binders, with the Strike Freedom's wing design only being marginally superior to that of the Destiny's by about two points.

However the anime shows no such usage of thrust vectoring and was shit in depicting the wings of light produced by both machines as faster than other suits, with grunts, the Akatsuki, Infinite Justice, and Legend all capable of keeping up with it, so for the most part the Freedom had just as much speed while being more maneuverable due to the flexibility of the wing binders and the various configurations they could form. In practice, the Freedom should actually out-fly the Strike Freedom in-atmosphere.

As always, the biggest issue with Destiny is the animation recycling. They recycled the Freedom scenes for SF.

Going by anime alone, the SF has the same maneuverability as the Freedom in the atmosphere. That's mainly because the same scenes are recycled.

So going on that, it doesn't matter about the aerodynamic properties of SF's wings but on the strength of the new Voiture Lumière engines. Supposedly the enhanced properties of the Voiture Lumière enable SF to have at least minimally the same speed as Freedom in the atmosphere.

This is shown by recycled animation from SEED but mainly SF's regular high speed disablement and when Kira dodged Rey's DRAGOONs while dancing through them, again a recycling of the Freedom vs Providence.

The fact that the SF could dodge all of Rey's DRAGOON's beams in the atmosphere would indicate that SF is as maneuverable as Freedom is in space but that's impossible.

However in the Gundam multiverse, logic and reasoning goes out the window.

TL;DR : Even though SF shouldn't be faster based on the laws of physics, the Voiture Lumière engines and regular Gundam logic, or lack of, invalidate the laws of physics.

Besides who really thinks Gundam follows physics or logic, Neutron Jammers are extremely ridiculous piece of technology for example.

[Aquaman OS]

Legend bothered me the most. The thing doesn't have wings or anything that looks like it should allow it to fly at all yet not only can it fly in atmosphere it can keep pace with the other 3 Gundam's just as well using only its tiny little thrusters on its back.