Kamen Rider General Discussion

[GDB]

Never underestimate the power of waifu wars.

[Dengar]

Oh wow. Even here people just keep comparing him to an irredeemable guy who never did a single good thing. This isn't just about the waifu anymore. The waifu is just a minor part of a much bigger issue.

I'm not defending him, I mean he still needs to be put in his place, but I don't confuse him for something he's not.

Unless you are implying that Takatora is Micchy's waifu. Or that the Yggdrassil WMD is his waifu. Or that Kouta is his waifu. Or all of the above.


Let me reiterate here: Masato Kusaka is a guy who, from the moment he was introduced, started screwing over everyone who so much as looked at Mari funny. And then also screwed over anyone in their general vicinity.

You're comparing him to a guy who started out with the right idea, which got warped beyond recognition when the object of his worship continued to defy his "script".

It's an issue yes, and he needs to get his ass handed to him, but I don't confuse him for some kind of "yandere archetype" just because the object of his affection happens to be a cute girl who has a bit of a thing with the main character. He is a control freak who keeps getting his "perfect" plans ruined time and time again.

Important detail: He did not snap because Mai bitchslapped him. Mai bitchslapped him because he snapped.

I will not deny that there's a dash of "murder the hypoteneuse" there, but that's because he is the hypoteneuse in every. single. relationship. he has. Including, ironically, his relationship with Kouta himself. Yes, he has some sort of weird relationship triangle in which Kouta appears twice. He is both the right angle AND the hypoteneuse in his relationship to Micchy.

[Galaxian]

Except for all those times Kusaka saved Takumi, and he even gave Takumi the Accel watch.

[GDB]

I don't even know what show you're talking about anymore.

[Fireminer]

Originally Posted by Kanon

Did Micchy go to the Masato Kusaka school of douchebaggery? Actually, he's already surpassed him. His actions in this episode were downright despicable. He let his brother die (though I'm pretty sure he will survive and come back as an overlord...) and is willing to let billions die just because Kouta stole his waifu, though his real issues run deeper than that.

Episode 29

Yup! That is Urobuchi for sure!

[Dengar]

Originally Posted by Galaxian

Except for all those times Kusaka saved Takumi, and he even gave Takumi the Accel watch.

I understand that this isn't really the best argument because even I notice my personal bias coming out, but those really felt more like out-of-character moments to me.

Originally Posted by GDB

I don't even know what show you're talking about anymore.

You know, there's always the option to agree to disagree. You don't HAVE to resort to insulting people when arguments run out.

[Darkman.exe213]

Originally Posted by Dengar

You know, there's always the option to agree to disagree. You don't HAVE to resort to insulting people when arguments run out.

I think the guy really doesn't know what you're talking about. Not everyone has seen Kamen Rider Faiz, and honestly I feel like spoilers for it should have a spoiler warning.

Spoiler for episode 28/29:

Feels like they crammed a LOT into 28, much more than they did in any other episode so far. Pretty nice developments though, it's kinda weird but seeing the urobutcher elements come back in spades after the series was just beginning to have a slight turn for the better was refreshing.

I'm hoping they at least gave some kind of explanation for Takatora surviving that kind of fall, though.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Dengar

You know, there's always the option to agree to disagree. You don't HAVE to resort to insulting people when arguments run out.

What the hell are you even talking about? How is saying I don't know what you're talking about an insult? I literally don't know what series you're talking about, because Gaim is the only Kamen Rider I've watched since one of the old movies way back.

Originally Posted by Darkman.exe213

I think the guy really doesn't know what you're talking about. Not everyone has seen Kamen Rider Faiz, and honestly I feel like spoilers for it should have a spoiler warning.

Thank you. At least now I know what series was being brought up.

[Kanon]

Originally Posted by Dengar

Oh wow. Even here people just keep comparing him to an irredeemable guy who never did a single good thing. This isn't just about the waifu anymore. The waifu is just a minor part of a much bigger issue.

I'm not defending him, I mean he still needs to be put in his place, but I don't confuse him for something he's not.

Unless you are implying that Takatora is Micchy's waifu. Or that the Yggdrassil WMD is his waifu. Or that Kouta is his waifu. Or all of the above.


Let me reiterate here: Masato Kusaka is a guy who, from the moment he was introduced, started screwing over everyone who so much as looked at Mari funny. And then also screwed over anyone in their general vicinity.

You're comparing him to a guy who started out with the right idea, which got warped beyond recognition when the object of his worship continued to defy his "script".

It's an issue yes, and he needs to get his ass handed to him, but I don't confuse him for some kind of "yandere archetype" just because the object of his affection happens to be a cute girl who has a bit of a thing with the main character. He is a control freak who keeps getting his "perfect" plans ruined time and time again.

Important detail: He did not snap because Mai bitchslapped him. Mai bitchslapped him because he snapped.

I will not deny that there's a dash of "murder the hypoteneuse" there, but that's because he is the hypoteneuse in every. single. relationship. he has. Including, ironically, his relationship with Kouta himself. Yes, he has some sort of weird relationship triangle in which Kouta appears twice. He is both the right angle AND the hypoteneuse in his relationship to Micchy.

I was reminded of Kusaka because he used the exact same plan Kusaka used in Faiz (using a stolen belt to create a rift between the two heroes). I believe Micchy is worse than him because he let his brother die, he's currently attempting to kill his best friend, and he's willing to let billions of humans die, all because things aren't going his way. He's a big baby throwing a tantrum. Kusaka at least fought for the survival of humanity, and he had decent reasons for acting like such an asshole. Micchy is just as irredeemable as Kusaka was. He's crossed a line that can never be uncrossed in this episode.

[Fireminer]

Umm... Not that sure abou Kusaka. He fights not to protect everyone and their dreams like Takumi, that is for sure. More like for his selfish love to Mari, and his hatred for Orphenoch.

But still, I just can't understand why the heck did Mitsuzane do that. The whole "Letting me burdened instead of my beloved" is screwed up - Takatora has to fight for his life, for God's sake.

[Dengar]

Originally Posted by GDB

What the hell are you even talking about? How is saying I don't know what you're talking about an insult? I literally don't know what series you're talking about, because Gaim is the only Kamen Rider I've watched since one of the old movies way back.

Thank you. At least now I know what series was being brought up.

Oh I'm sorry, I completely misinterpreted what you said. That was my bad.

Originally Posted by Kanon

I was reminded of Kusaka because he used the exact same plan Kusaka used in Faiz (using a stolen belt to create a rift between the two heroes). I believe Micchy is worse than him because he let his brother die, he's currently attempting to kill his best friend, and he's willing to let billions of humans die, all because things aren't going his way. He's a big baby throwing a tantrum. Kusaka at least fought for the survival of humanity, and he had decent reasons for acting like such an asshole. Micchy is just as irredeemable as Kusaka was. He's crossed a line that can never be uncrossed in this episode.

I... haven't even thought of it that way. I guess my way of viewing Kusaka is very similar to what I've been seeing in others' view on Micchy. Although I don't agree that Kusaka had "decent reasons for acting like an asshole".

As for Micchy, I don't think he is really "willing to let billions die", but more that he's not even seeing those billions of people (which you might argue is even worse). The part about him throwing a tantrum is true though. I just disagree on where said tantrum is coming from. Similarly, he is not seeing Kouta for who he is. He has this idealised image of Kouta in his head, and all he "sees" is a Kouta who acts completely opposite that. He is basically blind to the underlying process that causes him to act the way he does.

I'm very interested in him as a character. I mean, as a person he is either close to or beyond the moral event horizon, but as a character, he intrigues me. In my view there is a lot of depth to the guy that is more than just an unhealthy obsession with some girl. He's working to "preserve" some idealised version of his world, one that has stopped existing around episode 1, or maybe even never existed in the first place.

Originally Posted by Fireminer

Umm... Not that sure abou Kusaka. He fights not to protect everyone and their dreams like Takumi, that is for sure. More like for his selfish love to Mari, and his hatred for Orphenoch.

But still, I just can't understand why the heck did Mitsuzane do that. The whole "Letting me burdened instead of my beloved" is screwed up - Takatora has to fight for his life, for God's sake.

The only way to understand Micchy's actions is to understand that, crudely put, his brain is wired in a very atypical way. His actions seem to not accurately reflect what he thinks, because you would act in a completely different manner if you were put into his shoes.

Which is what intrigues me so about characters like that.

[Kanon]

I don't disagree about Micchy's character, Dengar. I said in my initial post that his real issues are deeper than they appear. Mai was only the trigger. He's definitely an interesting character, but he's also a huge asshole who uses underhanded methods to get what he wants. It's only natural that people compare him to Kusaka, one of the saga's biggest asshole (god, I hated him SO MUCH).

[Dengar]

While I don't necessarily disagree with all that you're saying, in my defintion of "asshole", it's kind of hard to view Micchy as such. Although the distinction is really one of semantics. I view him more as a guy who is misguided and doesn't understand anything. IE ignorant.

To me, somebody can only be a true "asshole" when they are fully aware of the results of their actions, which as far as I can tell, is not the case here.

I'm sort of hoping that he'll at one point see the light and understand the consequences (which would cause a complete mental breakdown which is the real punishment he deserves IMHO). However, with Urobutcher, it's quite possible he'll die thinking he was righteous.

[MeisterBabylon]

Micchy is so gonna be Caster in this world.

[Fireminer]

http://henshinjustice.com/2014/05/07...-summer-movie/

See? They still put Mitsuzane in Team Gaim!

[Lhklan]

Originally Posted by Dengar

While I don't necessarily disagree with all that you're saying, in my defintion of "asshole", it's kind of hard to view Micchy as such. Although the distinction is really one of semantics. I view him more as a guy who is misguided and doesn't understand anything. IE ignorant.

To me, somebody can only be a true "asshole" when they are fully aware of the results of their actions, which as far as I can tell, is not the case here.

I'm sort of hoping that he'll at one point see the light and understand the consequences (which would cause a complete mental breakdown which is the real punishment he deserves IMHO). However, with Urobutcher, it's quite possible he'll die thinking he was righteous.

...Micchy was preparing to shoot Kouta in the back, knowing - and damn well banking on it - it would kill Kouta. He also stood by and watch as his brother got ganged up on by the other 3 Energy Riders, even as his brother calls out to him.

I don't know about you, but both of those times he is damn well aware of the consequences, even if it's only the more apparent ones (Kouta dead and Takatora dead).

At this point, I can see Micchy dies a pathetic dead, trying to grasp at straws, trying to convince other - probably Mai - that he was right and Kouta was wrong.

[GDB]

To be fair, what was Micchy supposed to do when Takatora was betrayed? It's not like Takatora was calling out for help; he was calling for Micchy to run and warn Yggdrasil of the betrayal. And even if Micchy had wanted to help... let's be realistic. The only Rider he was stronger than was Knuckle before he got the Shin Zangetsu belt, and even after getting that belt the only other Rider he could probably beat is Sid.

[Lhklan]

Originally Posted by GDB

To be fair, what was Micchy supposed to do when Takatora was betrayed? It's not like Takatora was calling out for help; he was calling for Micchy to run and warn Yggdrasil of the betrayal. And even if Micchy had wanted to help... let's be realistic. The only Rider he was stronger than was Knuckle before he got the Shin Zangetsu belt, and even after getting that belt the only other Rider he could probably beat is Sid.

True I suppose. Then again, considering that instead of honoring his brother's wish he decided to fuck things up between Zangetsu and Kouta instead, I wonder if he ever cared for anyone at all, or he just wanted his "happiness".

[Dengar]

By consequences, I didn't mean something as simple is "If I let my brother be killed, he will be dead.", or "If I shoot Kouta, he might die.". I meant the -real- consequences and implications of his actions. IE he doesn't realise that this puts him WELL past "well intentioned extremist".

As for whether or not he cares about people. I honestly believe he doesn't. But I also believe that he he himself DOES think he cares and that he is righteous.

Think Eric Cartman, only less comical.

Unlike, you know, Cid. He KNOWS he's kicking the dog.

[GDB]

He wanted Kouta to die. Even if he didn't think shooting him the first time would do it, when he walked up to him and almost shot him again (and would have if Kaito hadn't Tuxedo Masked it up), he knew what was going to happen. He believes that truly would be for the best. As he said this past episode, he believes Kouta ruins anyone he gets close to. Destroy the cancer, as it were. And as for letting his brother die, he'd been infected by Kouta so there was no saving him.