AnimeSuki Forums

idofgrahf · 2006-04-12, 19:40

the lesson of MSG is newtypes kickass lol. Anyways the lesson of Gundam as a whole seems to be War is unavoidable, watch Turn A, you'll get the idea of the cycle in which the gundam unversie is stuck in. That and deplicte the basesness of human nature where for victory we do anything from using Nukes to dropping colonies to killing civilians. Seriously the people in Gundam Unversie are more brutal then the Romans thats saying alot considering the Romans, in revenge has been know to kill men, woman, children, the young the elderly, their cats, dogs sheeps and anything that isn't Roman,

Newtyped · 2006-04-12, 19:45

yes i am superior
seing as i am a newtype by my name and all >> << >>
but was it necesarry for zeon to just go on killin sprees?
i mean i need my killin sprees everyday, like i need my daily cup of coffee ^^;;
but seriously, i dont get that part...

idofgrahf · 2006-04-12, 20:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Newtyped

yes i am superior
seing as i am a newtype by my name and all >> << >>
but was it necesarry for zeon to just go on killin sprees?
i mean i need my killin sprees everyday, like i need my daily cup of coffee ^^;;
but seriously, i dont get that part...

Did the Romans needed to kill everything that is living in a Gaul town/city? No, can they, hell yes and they did. The point is the lesson will stick for alonger period of time if many people die. The lesson of course is war is bad but unavoidable, think of the zeon as Nazis and you get the point.

for example if person A told person B not to do something, but B did it anyways, which method do you think would drive person A's point across better? Curse person B or send B to the hospital for month and promise the same should B do it again? Naturally the sending him to the hospital would more then likely prevent him from doing it again.

Newtyped · 2006-04-12, 20:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by idofgrahf

Did the Romans needed to kill everything that is living in a Gaul town/city? No, can they, hell yes and they did. The point is the lesson will stick for alonger period of time if many people die. The lesson of course is war is bad but unavoidable, think of the zeon as Nazis and you get the point.

for example if person A told person B not to do something, but B did it anyways, which method do you think would drive person A's point across better? Curse person B or send B to the hospital for month and promise the same should B do it again? Naturally the sending him to the hospital would more then likely prevent him from doing it again.

i think killin person b to set an example for any followers will carry it accross better

idofgrahf · 2006-04-12, 23:25

Hey I'm trying not to sound like a blood thursty monster here, but yes killing to set an example is a great way to discourage future violence. As for killing so many people, think about it. Zeon is only one side out of 7 in space. The Earth federation has 10 times or more the population, you need to demish that population if you have any chance of winning. That means kill as many able bodies as possible and ofcourse destroy their war factories.

Despite their stratgey though, Zeon simply did not do enough damge. Oedssa suceeded, not because the EF deployed limited amount of MS for it but because they simply had such overwhelming numbers that Zeons can't hold them back, the EF just keeps on coming.

Tiemler · 2006-04-13, 00:34

It seems like space colonists alternate, in the various UC series, between being portrayed as internees of dismal floating refugee camps, and on the other hand, as fortunate inhabitants of lush and beautiful micro-Earths. Add to that their fairly common psychic and mental gifts, particularly in MSG where Newtype characters far outnumbered "normals," and you have a very muddled sense of whether these exiles from Earth were victimized or blessed by the forced migration of most of humanity into space.

I guess that's kind of reflected in the Zeons' own rhetoric, which echoes Nazi propaganda that portrayed the fictional 'Aryan race' as simultaneously history's greatest victims and its last, best hope.

Or maybe we're just reading far too much into a series "about" giant robots.

Newtyped · 2006-04-13, 14:06

(o yea and i only have the zeon sign on my avatar caus it look kewl

hail oz!)
well i think the series really is about more than giant robots,
i think the giant robots just helped make it more orginal and unique.
I mean will it be as interesting if these were people going about killing other people like that?
actually maybe it would >> << >>
but i guess it can be said neither side is good =/
is there any pro fed or zeon here?
lol i know it may be silly to be caught up in such, but in a way lookin at fictional history in events can help us reflect on ourselves. So really its a matter of morals =/

idofgrahf · 2006-04-13, 14:51

Most at this point in UC would be pro federation despite that they have incompetent generals. They are not the aggerssors and were not the ones to start the war, plus most would agree that the Zabi family are a bunch of insane lunatics. I can't exactly think of anyone that is pro Zeon, sure there are those who like Zeon as a side but certianly not their idea's, they did like kill billions of people for it, the federation did not.

Just like Char's counter attack, many people like char, but in the end they know that Char's ideals was wrong and Amuro's right.

Newtyped · 2006-04-13, 15:14

sadly theres people who are pro hitler and etc,
so its not that hard to believe that someone would side with a fictional dictatorship =/ (also i've seen pro zeon sites lol)

WhereAmI · 2006-04-13, 15:22

In the end, the message is simple, war is hell. Even when you look at actual wars (not the anime ones), during or years later you hear about atrocities committed by both/all sides. People being killed, gased, nuked, raped, tortured, and sold into slavery. I think Gundam tries to show that, but it is also a piece of entertainment, and a "slave" to Bandai to sell models, so sometimes to message gets lost in story. Both side didn't "bad stuff" and in the end will justify it as a means to an end.

Take the dropping of the Nukes in Japan, some will say that it was necessary to prevent the death of many Allied soldiers, and others will say that it was overkill, and should never have been used.

This can also be applied to memorial in Japan for those that died in world war II. Some see it as a glorification of what they considered "atrocities" commited by Japanese soldiers during WWII, other see as simply a memorial to remember those that died.

Newtyped · 2006-04-13, 15:29

yes, war is hell.
however you cant have heaven without hell
therefore you cant have good things without the bad,
so in essence war is necessary =/
though lets not let this get off topic here ^^;
I mean honestly, what if zeon wanted to break away and didnt start a war? Would the feddies start a war?

WhereAmI · 2006-04-13, 15:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Newtyped

i kno. the south also wanted freedom from the north.
(and it wanted all the south to be free)
thats the problem im addressing.
to me it seems like zeon wants freedom, earth doesnt want zeon anyway
so than zeon goes and tries to lik destroy earth. it just doesnt make sense

the earth sure to hell wouldnt be dum enuf to waste all its resources to get a colonie back =/

I have to disagree with this. Even if Zeon holds no true value to the Federation, the problem is, if they give it independence, then they risk other colonies, and/or other regions on Earth seeking independence. The message sent would be that if we (as a colony/state on Earth), build a large enough army and threaten to start a war, the federation will give in and give us independence.

In current day context, some people have argued that that is the underlying issue behind Kashmir for India and Pakistan. They argue that if India were to give up Kashmir (which from what understand holds no real economic value, its only a snowy mountainous region), then that would open up the door for other parts of India to do the same. Of course that is just one argument behind the Kashmir (I'm sure there are a lot more issues also involved). I'm sure this is not the only country today with this dilemma.

WhereAmI · 2006-04-13, 15:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Newtyped

yes, war is hell.
however you cant have heaven without hell
therefore you cant have good things without the bad,
so in essence war is necessary =/
though lets not let this get off topic here ^^;
I mean honestly, what if zeon wanted to break away and didnt start a war? Would the feddies start a war?

On your first point, I think ideally you could have heaven without hell, only people wouldn't realize its heaven because there is nothing else to compare it too

As for your second part, I don't see how it would be possible to break away without starting war, only difference would be that feddies would be starting it.

WhereAmI · 2006-04-13, 15:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Newtyped

sadly theres people who are pro hitler and etc,
so its not that hard to believe that someone would side with a fictional dictatorship =/ (also i've seen pro zeon sites lol)

Yes, and sadly there are people that believe that the best way to go to heaven is to blow themselves up in the name of God. But isn't that why we are here, to forget about reality, and focus our lives around anime

Newtyped · 2006-04-13, 15:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by WhereAmI

I have to disagree with this. Even if Zeon holds no true value to the Federation, the problem is, if they give it independence, then they risk other colonies, and/or other regions on Earth seeking independence. The message sent would be that if we (as a colony/state on Earth), build a large enough army and threaten to start a war, the federation will give in and give us independence.

In current day context, some people have argued that that is the underlying issue behind Kashmir for India and Pakistan. They argue that if India were to give up Kashmir (which from what understand holds no real economic value, its only a snowy mountainous region), then that would open up the door for other parts of India to do the same. Of course that is just one argument behind the Kashmir (I'm sure there are a lot more issues also involved). I'm sure this is not the only country today with this dilemma.

dont we get sweaters from there

WhereAmI · 2006-04-13, 15:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Newtyped

dont we get sweaters from there

Yes, but if from the standpoint of economic value, I'm sure Pakistan and India, have spent a lot more money "defending" Kashmir, then they could get from taxes on goods and services from Kashmir (including cashmere wool).

Newtyped · 2006-04-13, 16:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by WhereAmI

Yes, but if from the standpoint of economic value, I'm sure Pakistan and India, have spent a lot more money "defending" Kashmir, then they could get from taxes on goods and services from Kashmir (including cashmere wool).

well sometimes its just difficult to change things =/
and people dont really bother
but from what i've heard is they have nice sweaters, i'd hate for that to change

Souryu · 2006-04-13, 16:09

Just one thing... even if the Antartic Treaty was indeed a thing that limited Zeon attack power, it was necessary.

Zeon's main objective was to control earth to have a source of supplies and acquire true independence. Well, how can earth be a source of supply if there is 30 huge craters of the size of Australia and its atmosphere is contamined by nuclear weapons? It's like seazing a farm by putting fire on it, it will be complete useless.

Char, on the other side, never cared of supply, independence or anything like that. The only thing he wanted to say is "HEY, COME TO THE SPACE NOW!"... Of course he was using a huge asteroid as an argument LoL.

Another thing is about the federation. Arrogant it always was, true, but in MSG it was kinda of... hidden. The period starting at Stardust memory till ZZ we can see a true arrogant Fed. Victory, however, we can see most clearly its lazy side... hell, earth was protected by Zanscare Empire by a militia force! They only gave support to them at the end of the war, and even then, they equipment was so old that they used ra cailum's class spaceships, and they were used first in Char's Counterattack... there goes a looooooooooooooong time.

WhereAmI · 2006-04-13, 17:52

Can't we all just get along?

Newtyped · 2006-04-13, 18:24

o defiantly not
thats truly impossible,
and clearly any1 that thinks it can be done is foolish
thats y theres sides to every conflict,
thats why theres conflicts

2006-04-12, 19:40	Link #21
idofgrahf Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: In the fields of elysuim	the lesson of MSG is newtypes kickass lol. Anyways the lesson of Gundam as a whole seems to be War is unavoidable, watch Turn A, you'll get the idea of the cycle in which the gundam unversie is stuck in. That and deplicte the basesness of human nature where for victory we do anything from using Nukes to dropping colonies to killing civilians. Seriously the people in Gundam Unversie are more brutal then the Romans thats saying alot considering the Romans, in revenge has been know to kill men, woman, children, the young the elderly, their cats, dogs sheeps and anything that isn't Roman, __________________ Even if I go to hell I will live till the end of this world. If the world does not come to an end, then I will destroy it with my own hands! Lacan/Grahf

2006-04-12, 23:25	Link #25
idofgrahf Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: In the fields of elysuim	Hey I'm trying not to sound like a blood thursty monster here, but yes killing to set an example is a great way to discourage future violence. As for killing so many people, think about it. Zeon is only one side out of 7 in space. The Earth federation has 10 times or more the population, you need to demish that population if you have any chance of winning. That means kill as many able bodies as possible and ofcourse destroy their war factories. Despite their stratgey though, Zeon simply did not do enough damge. Oedssa suceeded, not because the EF deployed limited amount of MS for it but because they simply had such overwhelming numbers that Zeons can't hold them back, the EF just keeps on coming. __________________ Even if I go to hell I will live till the end of this world. If the world does not come to an end, then I will destroy it with my own hands! Lacan/Grahf Last edited by idofgrahf; 2006-04-12 at 23:50.

2006-04-13, 00:34	Link #26
Tiemler Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2006	Zeeks It seems like space colonists alternate, in the various UC series, between being portrayed as internees of dismal floating refugee camps, and on the other hand, as fortunate inhabitants of lush and beautiful micro-Earths. Add to that their fairly common psychic and mental gifts, particularly in MSG where Newtype characters far outnumbered "normals," and you have a very muddled sense of whether these exiles from Earth were victimized or blessed by the forced migration of most of humanity into space. I guess that's kind of reflected in the Zeons' own rhetoric, which echoes Nazi propaganda that portrayed the fictional 'Aryan race' as simultaneously history's greatest victims and its last, best hope. Or maybe we're just reading far too much into a series "about" giant robots.

2006-04-13, 14:51	Link #28
idofgrahf Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: In the fields of elysuim	Most at this point in UC would be pro federation despite that they have incompetent generals. They are not the aggerssors and were not the ones to start the war, plus most would agree that the Zabi family are a bunch of insane lunatics. I can't exactly think of anyone that is pro Zeon, sure there are those who like Zeon as a side but certianly not their idea's, they did like kill billions of people for it, the federation did not. Just like Char's counter attack, many people like char, but in the end they know that Char's ideals was wrong and Amuro's right. __________________ Even if I go to hell I will live till the end of this world. If the world does not come to an end, then I will destroy it with my own hands! Lacan/Grahf

2006-04-12, 19:45	Link #22
Newtyped Gangsta Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Ct Age: 32	yes i am superior seing as i am a newtype by my name and all >> << >> but was it necesarry for zeon to just go on killin sprees? i mean i need my killin sprees everyday, like i need my daily cup of coffee ^^;; but seriously, i dont get that part...

2006-04-13, 14:06	Link #27
Newtyped Gangsta Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Ct Age: 32	(o yea and i only have the zeon sign on my avatar caus it look kewl hail oz!) well i think the series really is about more than giant robots, i think the giant robots just helped make it more orginal and unique. I mean will it be as interesting if these were people going about killing other people like that? actually maybe it would >> << >> but i guess it can be said neither side is good =/ is there any pro fed or zeon here? lol i know it may be silly to be caught up in such, but in a way lookin at fictional history in events can help us reflect on ourselves. So really its a matter of morals =/

2006-04-13, 15:14	Link #29
Newtyped Gangsta Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Ct Age: 32	sadly theres people who are pro hitler and etc, so its not that hard to believe that someone would side with a fictional dictatorship =/ (also i've seen pro zeon sites lol)

2006-04-13, 15:22	Link #30
WhereAmI Ecchi Otaku Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Inside your head, I'm a figment of your imagination	In the end, the message is simple, war is hell. Even when you look at actual wars (not the anime ones), during or years later you hear about atrocities committed by both/all sides. People being killed, gased, nuked, raped, tortured, and sold into slavery. I think Gundam tries to show that, but it is also a piece of entertainment, and a "slave" to Bandai to sell models, so sometimes to message gets lost in story. Both side didn't "bad stuff" and in the end will justify it as a means to an end. Take the dropping of the Nukes in Japan, some will say that it was necessary to prevent the death of many Allied soldiers, and others will say that it was overkill, and should never have been used. This can also be applied to memorial in Japan for those that died in world war II. Some see it as a glorification of what they considered "atrocities" commited by Japanese soldiers during WWII, other see as simply a memorial to remember those that died.

2006-04-13, 15:29	Link #31
Newtyped Gangsta Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Ct Age: 32	yes, war is hell. however you cant have heaven without hell therefore you cant have good things without the bad, so in essence war is necessary =/ though lets not let this get off topic here ^^; I mean honestly, what if zeon wanted to break away and didnt start a war? Would the feddies start a war?

2006-04-13, 16:09	Link #38
Souryu nothing at all... Join Date: Jul 2004 Age: 37	Just one thing... even if the Antartic Treaty was indeed a thing that limited Zeon attack power, it was necessary. Zeon's main objective was to control earth to have a source of supplies and acquire true independence. Well, how can earth be a source of supply if there is 30 huge craters of the size of Australia and its atmosphere is contamined by nuclear weapons? It's like seazing a farm by putting fire on it, it will be complete useless. Char, on the other side, never cared of supply, independence or anything like that. The only thing he wanted to say is "HEY, COME TO THE SPACE NOW!"... Of course he was using a huge asteroid as an argument LoL. Another thing is about the federation. Arrogant it always was, true, but in MSG it was kinda of... hidden. The period starting at Stardust memory till ZZ we can see a true arrogant Fed. Victory, however, we can see most clearly its lazy side... hell, earth was protected by Zanscare Empire by a militia force! They only gave support to them at the end of the war, and even then, they equipment was so old that they used ra cailum's class spaceships, and they were used first in Char's Counterattack... there goes a looooooooooooooong time.

2006-04-13, 17:52	Link #39
WhereAmI Ecchi Otaku Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Inside your head, I'm a figment of your imagination	Can't we all just get along?

2006-04-13, 18:24	Link #40
Newtyped Gangsta Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Ct Age: 32	o defiantly not thats truly impossible, and clearly any1 that thinks it can be done is foolish thats y theres sides to every conflict, thats why theres conflicts