(L) Magi - Labyrinth of Magic [manga]

[Avrorrange]

Originally Posted by Nicaea

He would harm Kouen. They're not really on good terms and Hakuryuu learning of how Kouen tried to controll his hatred pretty much guarantees that he'll see Kouen as an enemy.


How can he not take it too personally? He mainly blamed his uncle, but upon noticing that Kouen got his third metal vessel it wouldn't be weird for him to blame them too. It's Kouen and co. who gained the most in the deaths of the late king and Hakuryuu's brothers, due to Gyokuen providing them with metal vessels for instance.

He will harm Kouen because he's a competitor. If he quietly surrenders and swears fealty, I am sure he will most likely get away in one piece.I am sure he hated Kouen for a multitude of reasons, but he isn't unreasonable to the point where he will kill a highly useful subordinate.His mother is the only one whom he would absolutely kill.

[Nicaea]

Originally Posted by Yuukio

I worded it wrongly. You are right, he is willing to kill them only if he feels they stand in his way, but what I'm trying to figure out is what Hakuryuu intends to do once he has the throne. Is it merely the throne he wants back because he feels he was wronged by his uncle, with his cousins being guilty by association, or does he have some higher purpose? By the looks of things, it just looks as tho he wants the empire for himself, and conquer the rest of the world by any means necessary, even brainwashing (which isn't exactly a good way to establish a long-term rule, making me wonder if he's also after immortality).

If conquest is his goal, he has no business opposing Kouen because they're both after the same thing and my initial point stands that Hakuryuu is just being irrationally hateful. Kouen trying to control his anger also doesn't seem like a bad thing to me tbh. Iirc, Kouen wanted to make good relation with Hakuryuu and wasn't involved with the revolt either.

Gyokuen is another matter, and she was a legitimate threat being the leader of Al Thamen.



Kouen benefiting the most seems like pure coincidence rather than hinting toward any actual involvement in his uncle's usurpation of the throne. If nothing else, Gyokuen was the one primarily responsible, and Hakuryuu turning his blade toward her is understandable. Not to mention that with the way things were heading, Kouen would've also had to fight her if Hakuryuu didn't hurry things along.

If conquest is a goal, he has every reason to oppose Kouen. An empire doesn't need two emperors. It's pretty much the same thing as with Sinbad: if both work together, nothing will stop them no mater what they do. But since that would mean one has to submit, that will never happen. Also, how can a person be rationally hateful to begin with?

Kouen trying to control his anger for a bit doesn't seem like a bad thing for you because you go off the premise that Hakuryuu would be better off without his obsession for hate. More than an obsession, I believe he knows better, it's just that he can't let go of his hatred.

Kouen didn't completely want to have a good relationship with Hakuryuu. It's kind of like the case of how Kouen thinks of Alibabba: can't agree with his point of view, but too valuable to put aside. Kouen tried to control Alibabba too (Sinbad too) and it kind of worked in the sense that Alibabba agrees to ally himself to Kouen. Hakuryuu maybe an unstable factor, but for the sake of unity he wants Hakuryuu to work with him. In the end, you don't put a collar around people you want to have a good relationship with.

Yes, Gyokuen is the main culprit. But who brought her in the royal court? Who became king afterwards? Who put in quite some effort to ensure that the late king's children lost their status? Who is behind the antagonism towards them?

It's not a matter of coincidence, it's a matter of association. In Hakuryuu's eyes, Kouen is guilty by association. That being said, I'm pretty sure that Hakuryuu has a bunch of reasons to hate Kouen.

Originally Posted by Moe Connection

He will harm Kouen because he's a competitor. If he quietly surrenders and swears fealty, I am sure he will most likely get away in one piece.I am sure he hated Kouen for a multitude of reasons, but he isn't unreasonable to the point where he will kill a highly useful subordinate.His mother is the only one whom he would absolutely kill.

Nope he still will. Hakuryuu has seen a lot of things as a child, and due to that had to mature fast. His uncle and the rest of the royal court were underestimating him as he was playing the role of a prince who was devoted to his studies, but it seems that Kouen wouldn't buy it. Why would Hakuryuu even make someone like Kouen his subordinate? Kouen tried to do that with Hakuryuu, now look where we are. There is no way that Hakuryuu would understimate Kouen to the point of making him his subordinate. Killing Kouen is already hard, keeping him alive would be trickier.

[Avrorrange]

Originally Posted by Nicaea

Nope he still will. Hakuryuu has seen a lot of things as a child, and due to that had to mature fast. His uncle and the rest of the royal court were underestimating him as he was playing the role of a prince who was devoted to his studies, but it seems that Kouen wouldn't buy it. Why would Hakuryuu even make someone like Kouen his subordinate? Kouen tried to do that with Hakuryuu, now look where we are. There is no way that Hakuryuu would understimate Kouen to the point of making him his subordinate. Killing Kouen is already hard, keeping him alive would be trickier.

Because Kouen is too powerful to fight with?Dude controls most of the armies and have a good under of djinns under his control.If the dude shows that he's willing to submit and that he has no intention of sitting on the imperial throne(I highly doubt he'd do any of that),there's no reason why he needs to die.

[Nicaea]

Originally Posted by Moe Connection

Because Kouen is too powerful to fight with?Dude controls most of the armies and have a good under of djinns under his control.If the dude shows that he's willing to submit and that he has no intention of sitting on the imperial throne(I highly doubt he'd do any of that),there's no reason why he needs to die.

That if is so out of character for him or any king not named Alibaba that I doubt I should refute that.

[kyou13]

Originally Posted by Moe Connection

He will harm Kouen because he's a competitor. If he quietly surrenders and swears fealty, I am sure he will most likely get away in one piece.I am sure he hated Kouen for a multitude of reasons, but he isn't unreasonable to the point where he will kill a highly useful subordinate.His mother is the only one whom he would absolutely kill.

Honestly, I can't see Kouen "quietly surrenders", especially when you theorizes that Haku would want to make Kouen his subordinate to avoid fighting a tough enemy like him.

I mean, are we actually talking about Kouen surrender to Haku without a fight, and also "quietly" at that? With his ambition, I dare to say Kouen will fight it over with Haku, even if it means facing a crazy dude several times stronger than him.

[dazo]

@yuukio

I agree that a fight between them is inevitable and that Hakuryuu is unfit to be king.

why? becasue he is not a happy person?

the dude is more than qualified to be a king, he have the knowledge, he have the "greed", necessary to be a king , he have the power and now, with the latest chapter, he have the "thing" that all leader need (that scene at the end of the last chapter show so many similarities with arba revolution, dat stance "like mother like son"..and arba is a "good" leader..in her own way)

and the dude love his country, so he is not going to be a crazy leader(scarface and judar have suffered a lot..so they know the consequences of irrational killing/bs).. and that is what the normal populace need(fu monarchy!) a good legal base and rights to live a peaceful life
_________________
*random thought*
+ i can see a alibaba getting midfucked by reim, sindria and other countries(like father like son) if he was a king..

Originally Posted by Duffman

Wow. Love the pace that magi is finally going at after what feels like 100 chapters of little progress. Hakuryuu and Judar are actually making things... happen. Especially sick of alibaba and aladdin. It's especially annoying since the manga tries to talk about how there's no perfect one man with all the answers, but it portrays aladdin as the one who's always right. Hakuryuu is obviously not good, but at least the author doesn't try to portray him as a saint by burying the various hypocrisies he carries with weird white rukh appearing explanations.

Really hope we get 100 chapters of hakuryuu and Judar rather than some arc of our main characters getting stronger.

this
after alma-torran arc..magi has truly blossomed...but..the lame duo is going to return...someday

Originally Posted by Yuukio

I worded it wrongly. You are right, he is willing to kill them only if he feels they stand in his way, but what I'm trying to figure out is what Hakuryuu intends to do once he has the throne. Is it merely the throne he wants back because he feels he was wronged by his uncle, with his cousins being guilty by association, or does he have some higher purpose? By the looks of things, it just looks as tho he wants the empire for himself, and conquer the rest of the world by any means necessary, even brainwashing (which isn't exactly a good way to establish a long-term rule, making me wonder if he's also after immortality).

at first he just wanted his kingdom back (and kill the his mother + the usurpers), but after silly belial bs, he change his resolve(well..is more like he is following his magi advice) ....i suppose that he is going to look for a way to made a new world(but fist come kou, he is going to clean the economy...and that is going to take a while)

if you checked the last chapter(and the chapter prior belial dungeon)..he is not going to brainwash the entire kou army...just a few paws..(+ belial only last for a few weeks)

maybe, if he, someday reclaim phenex(i want this), he can archive immortality(zangan can be used in that way too..maybe)..but for immortal candidates ..i choose sinbad..

If conquest is his goal, he has no business opposing Kouen because they're both after the same thing and my initial point stands that Hakuryuu is just being irrationally hateful. Kouen trying to control his anger also doesn't seem like a bad thing to me tbh. Iirc, Kouen wanted to make good relation with Hakuryuu and wasn't involved with the revolt either.

"heaven cannot brook two suns, nor earth two masters."

hate can be a good thing if is used to destroy something bad...hatred is not a "bad" thing..it depend on the user

we don't know if kouen wasn't involved in the fire incident(maybe he was part of that without knowing..or he feel guilty ...so that can be the reason of why he tried to talk with scarface)..and their conversation in the Reunion arc..was a "fight-bait"

Kouen benefiting the most seems like pure coincidence rather than hinting toward any actual involvement in his uncle's usurpation of the throne. If nothing else, Gyokuen was the one primarily responsible, and Hakuryuu turning his blade toward her is understandable. Not to mention that with the way things were heading, Kouen would've also had to fight her if Hakuryuu didn't hurry things along.

bad luck brian kouen ...well..he actually put the rope on his neck , when he took the throne(but he is not the king yet..arba actually push him away from throne....poor/silly dude ) and started to apply his domination plans + he uses phenex to inflict pain and stop Hakuryuu

Originally Posted by Moe Connection

Because Kouen is too powerful to fight with?Dude controls most of the armies and have a good under of djinns under his control.If the dude shows that he's willing to submit and that he has no intention of sitting on the imperial throne(I highly doubt he'd do any of that),there's no reason why he needs to die.

that is the problem
he is going to die, because he represent the "fake" version of kou ..and Hakuryuu is cleaning his house....
but.. i actually can see kouen trying to follow Hakuryuu if the second actually beat him..but no...Hakuryuu is not the "type of man" that would accept that (first , because he actually do thing( the"mother" pirate arc again), second..he would have kill ren for showing that level of weakness and third..he is not a idiot like allibaba..maybe sinbad can save kouen ...yeah..i can see that )

[Avrorrange]

Originally Posted by kyou13

Honestly, I can't see Kouen "quietly surrenders", especially when you theorizes that Haku would want to make Kouen his subordinate to avoid fighting a tough enemy like him.

I mean, are we actually talking about Kouen surrender to Haku without a fight, and also "quietly" at that? With his ambition, I dare to say Kouen will fight it over with Haku, even if it means facing a crazy dude several times stronger than him.

Of course he won't quietly surrender.I am just saying that if he did, Hakuryuu most probably won't try and kill him.

[Lexxus]

Wait, I just want to make sure. The events happening right now in the past few chapters (after chapter 241) were how Hakuryuu killed Ren Gyokuen?

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Yuukio

Al Thamen and how they plan to bring Ill Ilah back. Meanwhile, Haku can only think about how his brothers died, Hakuei sides with Kouen and that Morgiana rejected him and both deserve death for it. What he's ignoring is that Kouen, ruthless as he is and reliant on tough methods and dictatorial policies (which I don't support), has his sights in what is more or less a righteous goal - bring unity to the world. Hakuryuu is also ignoring how Kouen had no part to play in the revolt. As I see it, Hakuei effectively symbolizes what Hakuryuu would've been had he kept his head on straight and vice-versa in Hakuei's case.

Yeah, I kinda want to call bullshit there. They both have self-serving motives - yes, Kouen too. He may say he's for world peace and all, but what he really means is that he's for world peace under him. He has no interest in a world united under Sinbad or under Reim.

But what does it mean with regards to Al Thamen which you correctly point to as the greater threat? In Hakuryu's case, it means impeding them. It means killing their leader. In Kouen's case, it means empowering them and gamble on the possibility he'll be able to outbetray them after getting rid of the people who can best oppose them (because they're also those who can best oppose him).

Originally Posted by Nicaea

He created that chasm because he felt like othere were standing in his way and trying to keep him from going for what he wants.

Which is exactly the case. They're all telling him he's got to swallow everything, up to and including letting Kouen and the evillest woman in the world profit from the murder of his father and brothers.

It's hard for me and my modern sensibilities to see anyone as a "legitimate monarch". As far as I'm concerned, anyone who says that about himself should be guillotined. But I can accept that Magi's world is different. It's just hard to care about the issue. But aside from that, I can completely understand why Hakuryu wants to kill the Gyokuen, and I can't see why he shouldn't. As for Kouen, well, he's picked his side, hasn't he?

[Redhazard]

Best Bros continue to be awesome.

All is well.

That said, I can't help but think the showdown against Gyokuen will be underwhelming.

[hawkeyesvn]

it probably will be just like how Arba dealt with "fake" David - nothing but a high lvl doll. But that's probably enough for now since the Duo's main goal is "cause a civil war and burn anyone stand against us".

[ChampDream]

that was good, Kouen sure was prepared for Hakuryuu's betrayal, but too bad Hakuryuu's mind is not what he expected to be.

we also have a new Sinbad chapter, I'm guessing Darius is going to punish Mistoras really bad and Sinbad will be the one that save him.

Originally Posted by Lexxus

Wait, I just want to make sure. The events happening right now in the past few chapters (after chapter 241) were how Hakuryuu killed Ren Gyokuen?

it seem so.

[Kafriel]

Hakuryuu is bawss...he has amazing willpower and doesn't compromise, these are qualities that make him fit to be king of a country. Thinking about it, Alibaba's indecisive character could never pass Hakuryuu's trials and we all saw how his chat with Kouen went...I'm really liking the current arc, it's building up a traumatized boy who barely conquered a dungeon to have the image of a true future king (and Judar co-operating with him is pretty fun).

As for Kouen, he's the absolute king type, he will never get along with his young brother...but I guess Al Thamen and Sinbad's group will have a say in who gets to sit on the throne of Kou.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Kafriel

Hakuryuu is bawss...he has amazing willpower and doesn't compromise, these are qualities that make him fit to be king of a country.

I'd say a king has to be able to compromise, or you get... well, Kouen. Someone who's unable to accept any way but his own, and will wage war on everyone.

[Nicaea]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

I'd say a king has to be able to compromise, or you get... well, Kouen. Someone who's unable to accept any way but his own, and will wage war on everyone.

At the same time a king who compromises too much doesn't get much done. A king is meant to lead, rarely to follow.

[bones]

Originally Posted by Nicaea

At the same time a king who compromises too much doesn't get much done. A king is meant to lead, rarely to follow.

A distinction that Hakuryuu will never be able to understand. I'm not getting all the Hakuryuu admiration?? All I'm seeing is that Gyokuen is still manipulating him like a puppet. It's a nice parallel, Hakuryuu manipulates the soldiers and his mother manipulates him. As if that wasn't clear enough we have a picture of Gyokuen sitting in a chair with a keikaku doori smile plastered on her face.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by bones

A distinction that Hakuryuu will never be able to understand. I'm not getting all the Hakuryuu admiration?? All I'm seeing is that Gyokuen is still manipulating him like a puppet. It's a nice parallel, Hakuryuu manipulates the soldiers and his mother manipulates him. As if that wasn't clear enough we have a picture of Gyokuen sitting in a chair with a keikaku doori smile plastered on her face.

Well, the nice thing is that he did something. He saw terrible evil, nigh-insurmontable odds, and he acted. No excuses, no compromise, no cowardice. No completely retarded priorities à la Kouen.

Yes, it's going to end in tears, because Hakuryu isn't the hero of this manga, Aladdin and Alibaba are. And no, I don't think he's going to be a better neighbor than Kouen, especially not with Judar at his side. But still - he showed admirable qualities. Courage, determination, self-sacrifice. Utter ruthlessness, though if you want to see it as a flaw, I'll understand.

Originally Posted by Nicaea

At the same time a king who compromises too much doesn't get much done. A king is meant to lead, rarely to follow.

A kind is meant to look after the interests of his people. I agree that Gyokuen had to go. I'll even say it would be better for Kou to stop existing as a country than to go the Alma Toran route again. But a king has to be able to make peace as well as war. And things don't look that good on that front.

[Raviel]

Originally Posted by Nicaea

At the same time a king who compromises too much doesn't get much done. A king is meant to lead, rarely to follow.

Case in point, Alibaba, he's able to make compromises and is generally a person I would accept as a leader......except he seems to lack the desire to go beyond what is important to him (Balbadd, his friends, the threat of Al-Thamen).

In and of itself I don't consider that a flaw, I mean Alibaba is practically the only person in the series that seems to be content with just protecting his people. Unfortunately, being a nice, content, and humble person will only get someone so far with the way their world is now, and sooner or later (I'm betting sooner) something will make Alibaba look beyond the confines of Balbadd (and maybe the threat of Al-Thamen) whether he likes it or not.

Now I would argue that the best King right now is still Sinbad because while he probably has his own interests in mind and is a really shady person, he still makes sure his people are more or less taken care of. He also prefers the "let them join us or else " route for taking over which is marginally more efficient than waging a war.

I'm not sure whether I would actually like to have him as a leader though

[Nicaea]

Originally Posted by bones

A distinction that Hakuryuu will never be able to understand. I'm not getting all the Hakuryuu admiration?? All I'm seeing is that Gyokuen is still manipulating him like a puppet. It's a nice parallel, Hakuryuu manipulates the soldiers and his mother manipulates him. As if that wasn't clear enough we have a picture of Gyokuen sitting in a chair with a keikaku doori smile plastered on her face.

That is because together with Judar, they're the opposite of Alibabba and Aladdin. Unlike Alibabba he shows more qualities as a king. Unlike Alibabba he resolves himself and pulls through. He is less indescisive. Judar on the other hand, admits he isn't a saint. Aladdin has a tendency of saying that not everyone is perfect but it's always he who has the answer. Judar is also less naïve and gets things done.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

A kind is meant to look after the interests of his people. I agree that Gyokuen had to go. I'll even say it would be better for Kou to stop existing as a country than to go the Alma Toran route again. But a king has to be able to make peace as well as war. And things don't look that good on that front.

Yeah I agree with that.

Originally Posted by Raviel

Case in point, Alibaba, he's able to make compromises and is generally a person I would accept as a leader......except he seems to lack the desire to go beyond what is important to him (Balbadd, his friends, the threat of Al-Thamen).

In and of itself I don't consider that a flaw, I mean Alibaba is practically the only person in the series that seems to be content with just protecting his people. Unfortunately, being a nice, content, and humble person will only get someone so far with the way their world is now, and sooner or later (I'm betting sooner) something will make Alibaba look beyond the confines of Balbadd (and maybe the threat of Al-Thamen) whether he likes it or not.

But Alibabba doesn't lead. He follows. Nor does he deeply resolve himself for his citizens. What good will he be as a king if he can't make descisions for his citizens? What good will he be if he follows what other kings tell him to do? That almost isn't compromise, but surrender.

[Tempest35]

Because he knows that as he is right now, he doesn't have what it takes to be a king on his own merits. He's trying to learn but few people are willing to mentor him. He's thrown out to sea with just a little life raft and a coat to use as a sail.

Both Kouen and Sinbad know that Alibaba's not really up to the task of leading (as he is). Sinbad will help him as he does have a debt of friendship with Alibaba's late father. It's just that Alibaba won't agree with all the methods that Sinbad has at his disposal. Kouen will help only as long as Alibaba helps him. He knows that the Desert Prince has potential but he wants to keep that potential for himself.

As for Hakuryuu, when I come back.