Unfairly killing off a character

[jbruns]

Originally Posted by .Incarnate//

Ok, i know that certain characters have to be killed off to further progress and develop the storyline but i would have to say killing off the sand kage was not a good move for loads of reasons imo and they killed off his character in a very very very stupid way imo.

When i first saw the sand kage and saw gaara's story i started to picture the current and future relationship between gaara and his dad, they could've made it rival the sasuke and itachi relationship imo?! can u see why i hate to see a good character killed off when they could've improved the story imo,
like if gaara and sand kage were to meet again anything interesting could've happened but instead they just killed him off so we'll never know.

I mean, they show us fights likes sakura v ino and that Aoi one and even mizuki v naruto but they choose not to show us a kage level fight?!; sand kage v oro match.....very logical.....

I really wanted to see the sand kage in action but he got robbed of his spotlight imo.


p.s. u should all listen to a song called MAPS from YEAH YEAH YEAHS, i keep rinsing it and it don't get old

It just isnt feasible. The whole kazekage in the stadium really being orochimaru was meant to be a shock for the audience... previously we thought oro would be doing his own thing with kazekage. It also helped make the sand look evil (for storyline purposes good vs evil) rather than being tricked during the war. And it wouldnt make sense to have it in a flashback because a battle flashback....well really now

[Shay]

A Kage being beat in this manner is one of the flaws in Naruto.

It shouldn't have happened but it did, and theres nothing we can do about.

I deal with it like this..It was a fairly new village and only of importance for Orochimaru's role in the anime, so I try to think that the Sand kage was of Kakashi level.

And I leave it as that.

I know that sand Jounin looked tough Can't remember his name (Baki?) made mince meat of Hyate but Hyate was not at full Jounin level.


Make sense?

[MysticNinjaJay]

Like I said before I understand that Kazekage being killed in such a fashion was done for the pacing of the show, we had to be shocked, not see it coming and a flashback to it would be pointless. But, I hope this isn't what we can expect from the future of Kage thats my biggest gripe. Orochimaru killing Kazekage, even killing him steathly isn't a shock the big issue is wasting a Kage. Its fine to characterize Hokage as the absoulte strongest of the five Kage, but whats4 more powerful going to do to overinflate the list of charcters? Orochimaru wants a ninja war to get things moving. Thats an important part of his plan is to create chaos. Aside from Akatsuki other villages should get involved and that means other Kage (aswell as new characters). I can accept that Kazekage served his purpose and that Gaara doesn't need too much character development the way Sasuke does but I hope Kage aren't treated like this in the future, or worse not shown at all. Sand village needs a Kage now so hopefully we do indeed see another Kazekage in the future. I don't expect to hear from the other countries and villages soon but future Kage battles with new characters is something I look forward to.

[Shay]

Actually thinking about it, Orochimaru is more than Kage level anyway!

the only reason he wasn’t The 5th is because he was so fucked up and that’s it!

Oro is solid and he knows it! As if he would let some lame as new kage get in his way! he was probably stronger than the KaziKage at the age of 18.

Don't forget oro is the strongest person in the show we have seen.

Some may say Itachi, but the fact is it was explained to us that the 3rd was known as the best ninja throughout and it makes sense, and yes he was a bit past it but Oro still came out of the fight alive.

So actually I take everything back!

It just shows us how fucking bad ass Oro really is! Remember he had his arms at this point, he prolly pwnd Kazikage all over the place.

It was only for the sealing jutsu that he didn’t know of which gave him a problem against Saratobi.

Oro owns!!!11

[MysticNinjaJay]

Originally Posted by Shay

A Kage being beat in this manner is one of the flaws in Naruto.

It shouldn't have happened but it did, and theres nothing we can do about.

I deal with it like this..It was a fairly new village and only of importance for Orochimaru's role in the anime, so I try to think that the Sand kage was of Kakashi level.

And I leave it as that.

I know that sand Jounin looked tough Can't remember his name (Baki?) made mince meat of Hyate but Hyate was not at full Jounin level.


Make sense?

I don't know what you mean by not at full Jounin level (maybe ordinary jounin vs. elite like Kakashi?) but Sand village was not a new village it was one of the main five. There are lesser villages like the one in the Naruto 2003 OVA that don't have Kage. Its true there isn't anything we can do about it. Most of us who read the manga don't even pay like the japanese fans so we aren't part of the merketed fan base, but for the good of the show I hope he doesn't do that again. As important as being Hokage is to Naruto (Its his dream don't ya know? ) down playing the role of any Kage really cheapens his goal and the role of the other ninja all together. I mean when you here that Zabuza tried to take down Mizukage and the hidden Mist village and Kisame killed a feudal lord it makes those characters seem that much greater. I think making the 3rd Hokage weakened the mystic of the 5 Kage a tiny bit (though thats tottaly acceptable and sensible) but killing off Kazekage really hurt them, especially when he had so much potential. He could have been tricked, wounded, left to have a heinous grudge against Orochimaru and his fledgeling sound village. Anything but killed off. If I could write Kishimoto I'd urge him not to do that to an esteemed character again and redeem the name Kazekage if possible.

Originally Posted by Shay

Actually thinking about it, Orochimaru is more than Kage level anyway!

the only reason he wasn’t The 5th is because he was so fucked up and that’s it!

Oro is solid and he knows it! As if he would let some lame as new kage get in his way! he was probably stronger than the KaziKage at the age of 18.

Don't forget oro is the strongest person in the show we have seen.

Some may say Itachi, but the fact is it was explained to us that the 3rd was known as the best ninja throughout and it makes sense, and yes he was a bit past it but Oro still came out of the fight alive.

So actually I take everything back!

It just shows us how fucking bad ass Oro really is! Remember he had his arms at this point, he prolly pwnd Kazikage all over the place.

It was only for the sealing jutsu that he didn’t know of which gave him a problem against Saratobi.

Oro owns!!!11

Orochimaru does indeed kick the ass. But still kill off a Kage? Thats just wrong. Orochimaru killing him isn't the issue at all its Kazekage being killed off that is a disgrace.

[Kayess]

Originally Posted by Shay

Don't forget oro is the strongest person in the show we have seen.

I take it your didn't see the couple of fights right after the war...In those fights, the strongest ninja in the show was displayed. He goes by the name of "Itachi", and he is the brother of Sasuke.

[Shay]

^

True but Oro toyed with Saratobi because there is a history behind them.

He prolly went all out against the kazakage and overwhelmed him. You have to remember Oro was stronger than the Saratobi it was plain to see and Saratobi was meant to be the strongest of all the Kages.

About Hyate Ive been through this before, apparently he is a "Special Jounin" Which is really a Chounin with special abilities, so in no way should he be compared to Kakashi, Gai, Asuma or Kurinai.

And as I said true ( Meaning you are totally right)

But this is my way of dealing with the situation let me have it please lol.

When ever I’m in doubt i just sat to my self..."ORO OWNZ YOU ALL!"

[MysticNinjaJay]

Originally Posted by Shay

^

True but Oro toyed with Saratobi because there is a history behind them.

He prolly went all out against the kazakage and overwhelmed him. You have to remember Oro was stronger than the Saratobi it was plain to see and Saratobi was meant to be the strongest of all the Kages.

About Hyate Ive been through this before, apparently he is a "Special Jounin" Which is really a Chounin with special abilities, so in no way should he be compared to Kakashi, Gai, Asuma or Kurinai.

And as I said true ( Meaning you are totally right)

But this is my way of dealing with the situation let me have it please lol.

When ever I’m in doubt i just sat to my self..."ORO OWNZ YOU ALL!"

You can deal with it how you want but for me things have to make sense. "Special Jounin" is something that does not make sense. What the hell are you talking about? If he is "special" that would mean he is really good or has a special job (being an examiner). There is no reason to believe Hayate is chuunin because he is said to be a jounin, thats a paradox. Baki killed him so easily because he is just that damn good. Now is Hayate on par with Kakashi? Probably not but he is quite skilled Baki even says its impressive that Hayate excecuted the Leaf Crescent Dance at such a young age. I don't know why you want to demote him to Chuunin. Perhaps saying Kakashi is an elite Jounin and Hayate is a decent one is ok but calling a Jounin a Chuunin is just inappropiate. Thats like calling an good Black Belt (not an exceptional one) a Brown belt with "Special skills". And Don't say Kazekage is equal to Kakashi. Just don't. I love Kakashi and he is near Sannin level if Kabuto can fight a Sannin but if you say he and Kazekage are equal that just gives me another reason to bitch about Kazekage being treated the way he did.

[Shay]

Originally Posted by ShurikenJay

You can deal with it how you want but for me things have to make sense. "Special Jounin" is something that does not make sense. What the hell are you talking about? If he is "special" that would mean he is really good or has a special job (being an examiner). There is no reason to believe Hayate is chuunin because he is said to be a jounin, thats a paradox. Baki killed him so easily because he is just that damn good. Now is Hayate on par with Kakashi? Probably not but he is quite skilled Baki even says its impressive that Hayate excecuted the Leaf Crescent Dance at such a young age. I don't know why you want to demote him to Chuunin. Perhaps saying Kakashi is an elite Jounin and Hayate is a decent one is ok but calling a Jounin a Chuunin is just inappropiate. Thats like calling an good Black Belt (not an exceptional one) a Brown belt with "Special skills". And Don't say Kazekage is equal to Kakashi. Just don't. I love Kakashi and he is near Sannin level if Kabuto can fight a Sannin but if you say he and Kazekage are equal that just gives me another reason to bitch about Kazekage being treated the way he did.

A few flaws in your post:

Never once is Hyate refered to as a Jounin. (Thats the reason why I though he was a chuunin till Raikage put me striaght.)

If as you say Kakashi is near Sannin level then he is just as near Kage level. (Considering Tsunade is now Hokage and Jirayia was asked to take the job first and we all know Oro is Kage level strentgh, just not in logic.)

And special Jounin, belive it or not is a rank below Jounin.

[MysticNinjaJay]

Originally Posted by Shay

A few flaws in your post:

Never once is Hyate refered to as a Jounin. (Thats the reason why I though he was a chuunin till Raikage put me striaght.)

If as you say Kakashi is near Sannin level then he is just as near Kage level. (Considering Tsunade is now Hokage and Jirayia was asked to take the job first and we all know Oro is Kage level strentgh, just not in logic.)

And special Jounin, belive it or not is a rank below Jounin.

I could go hunt for a quote but I'm quite sure Hayate was mentioned as being a Jounin. And where is special Jounin mentioned as being below a Jounin? There are only 3 ninja rank, Genin,Chuunin,Jounin. Kage are the leader and Sannin is not a rank. ANBU I swear I saw it said are specially assigned Jounin to the Hokage for orders dealing with espionage and assassination as well has hunting but people will still insist ANBU can be of Chuunin or Genin rank (Where are those damn quotes).

[HopelessLover]

If they wasted the sand kages life so easy, orochimaru's life should of been expired along time ago. They need to move on with the bad guys instead of overlapping the old ones with new ones and then going back to old ones.

[Shay]

Originally Posted by ShurikenJay

I could go hunt for a quote but I'm quite sure Hayate was mentioned as being a Jounin. And where is special Jounin mentioned as being below a Jounin? There are only 3 ninja rank, Genin,Chuunin,Jounin. Kage are the leader and Sannin is not a rank. ANBU I swear I saw it said are specially assigned Jounin to the Hokage for orders dealing with espionage and assassination as well has hunting but people will still insist ANBU can be of Chuunin or Genin rank (Where are those damn quotes).

I found this thread fairly interesting. Naruto data book

While it didn't totally convince me it definitely introduced me to the words "Special jounin" And because it refers to the likes of Hyate and Anko as special Jounin it made me think.

Anyway, read the thread it is quite good with lots of interesting statistics and stuff.

Trust me you'll enjoy it, it was one of the best threads on the go at the time ( Big up Sarcasteak for it!)

[MysticNinjaJay]

Originally Posted by HopelessLover

If they wasted the sand kages life so easy, orochimaru's life should of been expired along time ago. They need to move on with the bad guys instead of overlapping the old ones with new ones and then going back to old ones.

I'm not sure what you mean by Oro's life expiring but Akatsuki and Orochimaru make for some good villains. Its better than waiting for a solitary villain to finally get it in the end. Its nice to see villians like Zabuza, the sound nin trio and the Sound 5 come and go while keeping the best for last but killing off a Kage?! Thats borderlining on blasphemy! Even though you have heroes and villains like the Sannin and Akatsuki that are on par or stronger than all the Kage they still have the rank that makes them characters that should not be disposed of. They don't ALL have to have a Kage fight (but atleast one good shinobi per village), however they should have an honorable mention in the storyline or make an appearance here and there if not be part of the main storyline. Nothing good can come from killing off a Kage, not even making orochimaru look more important by making the Kage less important.....its not right.

Originally Posted by Shay

I found this thread fairly interesting. Naruto data book

While it didn't totally convince me it definitely introduced me to the words "Special jounin" And because it refers to the likes of Hyate and Anko as special Jounin it made me think.

Anyway, read the thread it is quite good with lots of interesting statistics and stuff.

Trust me you'll enjoy it, it was one of the best threads on the go at the time ( Big up Sarcasteak for it!)

I love knowing statistics and I think I read into this thread before but I don't see how a Special Jounin can be inferior to a Jounin. Anko and Hayate have special jobs the way Kakashi's special job is as a genin sensei. They were all likely at one time ANBU where jounin go to be hardened and leave veterans fit for tasks inside the village.

[Shay]

Originally Posted by ShurikenJay

I love knowing statistics and I think I read into this thread before but I don't see how a Special Jounin can be inferior to a Jounin. Anko and Hayate have special jobs the way Kakashi's special job is as a genin sensei. They were all likely at one time ANBU where jounin go to be hardened and leave veterans fit for tasks inside the village.

Well trust me I felt the same.

But after reading and a lot of thinking, I actually acknowledged the fact that a "Special Jounin" More or less means a Chuunin who has certain special abilities that require Jounin mentalities, Or if you like a jounin who excels in one or maybe two areas but is not as advanced as a Jounin, or a Jounin with special needs lol j/k.

Believe me I know it’s complicated, that’s why I originally said I wasn’t completely convinced.

But as the thread says on several occasions Hyate is a "Special Jounin" So I myself came to the conclusion that the likes of Hyate Anko Ibiki and genma are indeed called "Special Jounins" But I think "They" Have just simply got it wrong!

Hyate, Anko, Ibiki, and whoever else who has been cursed with this title should be called "Special Chuunin" It would make so much more sense.

Anyway. Jay I would love for you to deal out some solid proof as I really don't like all this myself, but the fact is (And I have looked) Never once does the ANIME refer to Hyate as a jounin, neither does it refer to him (or anyone as a matter of a fact)
As a "Special jounin"

To me he's just a Chuunin.

But then comes Ibiki, who is one who could definitely be referred to as a "Special Jounin" (Or special Chuunin, because i really just think its some sort of typo but anyway..)

He excels in the field of interrogation more than anyone else, but that one advantage alone does not make him Jounin worthy, which again backs up why It should be called "Special Chuunin" Rather than....Well you know.

Ok I am rambling now but it’s because of yet again this thread.

ARG! We need hunter or Raikage to come and clear all this up! Better yet SARC! Get your ass in here!!11

[.Incarnate//]

Originally Posted by Shay

He excels in the field of interrogation more than anyone else, but that one advantage alone does not make him Jounin worthy, which again backs up why It should be called "Special Chuunin" Rather than....Well you know.

In episode 105 he was definetly referred to as a jounin but concerning the special chuunin subject, can you clearify hyate's rank because i also thought he was a jounin but you bring some good points to him being a special jounin.

[MysticNinjaJay]

Ok here's the thing maybe this can ease your mind. Ibiki is infact an ANBU captain and a jounin, actually since the people around him were all Chuunin examiners I made the mistake of thinking he was a Chuunin captain but that is not the case. Orochimaru calls Anko a "special jounin" when they fight. He didn't say special as in "special" Olympics meaning a "kinda sorta" Jounin but really a chuunin, he meant that she was exceptional. Genma was defintely a Jounin, and he had the same job as Hayate he infact replaced him. He was also Shizune's partner (a definite Jounin) who got beat up by the Sound Ninja 4. Now I'll go search for that quote but lets make one thing clear. A jounin is a jounin is a jounin and every examiner was a Jounin including I'm quite sure Hayate. Getting his ass beat by Baki just means Baki was a stronger opponent just like Kabuto killing 3 ANBU only means he is a really strong jounin not that they aren't Jounin. I challenge Raikage or anyone to come in here and show me other wise because "special jounin = chuunin" doesn't make any sense. Is Naruto a "Special Jounin" because he can use Kage Bunshin, a jounin level move, or is he just a Genin who stole a scroll and mastered a move thanks to his high stamina who would be a Chuunin if the examiners in charge didn't fail him? The same goes for Neji and Kaiten. Jounin = Upper Ninja and doesn't mean you are unless you give a fellow Jounin a good fight. "Special jounin" is probably a jounin with a special rank like "examiner" or "Hunter Ninja" or "Lead interrogator" a jounin with a specially qualified position. Never would it mean a "kinda sorta" jounin or indicate that you are actaully weak and not fit to do missions outside the village. Kakashi is also not a "true" jounin he is just a regular jounin with an ordinary job as Genin Sensei and that doesn't mean he is weaker then someone...special. I hope that clears it up for you Shay or else you are just confused and its better you think Special Jounin don't exist. What the hell did Raikage say to you?

[Shay]

Originally Posted by .Incarnate//

In episode 105 he was definetly referred to as a jounin but concerning the special chuunin subject, can you clearify hyate's rank because i also thought he was a jounin but you bring some good points to him being a special jounin.

One thing: I will not take anything the filler episodes had to offer into account.

Edit:

Originally Posted by raikage

Genma and Hayate are Tokubetsu (Special) Jounin.

They are less than Jounin, but high enough in one or two areas to be considered more like Specialized Chuunin.

Originally Posted by Shay

Well special Jounin just dosen't sound right to me, whats so special about a special Jounin If It not as good as a regular Jounin?

Specialized Chuunin sounds a bit better I suppose.
But can I ask were you get these facts?

Originally Posted by raikage

LMAO hey, I don't make up this stuff. I got it from the Naruto Character Data Book, which is about as offical as it gets - secondary only to the manga (which it seems to contradict in certain places)

As to why they are called Special Jounin, who knows?
I suppose it would be...think of Morino Ibiki (who is a Special Jounin)

If you had a team of Gai, Kakashi, Iruka, and Ibiki on a mission to capture and interrogate a high-ranking Lightning ninja, who would you put in charge?

The answer would most likely be Ibiki...but wait! He's not a Jounin. He's better at interrogation than the others, but he's a Chuunin (or would otherwise be one). So...what to do?

Make those people who are Jounin-level in one particular area a Special Jounin because sometimes their missions and responsibilities are at Jounin rather than Chuunin level. (or something like that)

And it goes on with other peoples opinions aswell. Here

Going to bed now, laters!

[MysticNinjaJay]

I would like to add one tiny thing for the record . Genin,Chuunin and jounin are not military ranks. I'm tired of people saying this because its not true and its going to confuse alot of people. Ok, Kishimoto modeled the ninja society in Naruto after real ninja. The three ranks are real ranks the ninja used to gauge skill level. Some people will say "Ok Jay we've heard enough about real ninja they are military ranks in Naruto's ninja world". Thats simply not true. Case in point, Chuunin is the equalivalent of military platoon captain if Ninja were a real Military which they are not, not even in Naruto. Ninja are a rogue mercenary type orgainzation who have villages and live in an seemingly ordinary fashion yet are live by doing mission for other people. They protect their village but they don't have an organized military they have orgainzed ranks (and most importantly and where people are getting confused job descrotions. The Captain of the team is the only solid link to having a real military. But where are the admirals,commanders and generals? There are none the captain of the team is the quad leader and every else listens to them even if they outrank them (which is why Shikmaru asked to lead a group of Chuunin and Jounin). A special jounin is not a rank above or below a regular jounin it just means you have a special assigned position like I said early. ANBU work directly under the Hokage's orders even though Jounin seem to be able to order them to do operations. They are like a swat team in a police force. So to make it clear aside from captains (team leaders) and the 3 basic ninja ranks there is no other form of rank among the Ninja in Naruto. There are special organizations like Hunter Ninja, ANBU, the police force (Who the Uchiha commanded) as well as the generic Genin, Chunin and Jounin ranks. Kage is the only rank higher than a Jounin and Kage are the leaders of the village. Sannin just means 3 ninja, and is more of a nickname for 3 legendary ninja (there maybe other Sannin of other villages). I hope that clears things up.

Originally Posted by Shay

One thing: I will not take anything the filler episodes had to offer into account.

Edit:








And it goes on with other peoples opinions aswell. Here

Going to bed now, laters!

. I'm going to have to see official documentation from this characterbook. I do see what Raikage is saying but I think its crap. Its just as plausible that Anko and Ibiki are stronger than kakashi and Gai and have special positions as it is that they are some sort of pseudo-Jounin who specialize in one area over another and are inferior to "real" Jounin. We don't even know what constitutes being a jounin so we can't say for sure only that they are all Upper Ninja be definition and the "special" ones are special because of their job.

[Shrimpusmaximus]

Checked the book and no the special jounin are not jounin skill.

The ranks are based loosly off of actual ninja ranking. A Genin was a specialist, not a weakling. He would have a specific role like archer or swordsman and while the whole group would have certain base skills that would be his area of expertise. The chuunin would lead the squad and provide overall knowledge to pick up a role in case of fatalities and a JOunin was a master ninja mostly involved in training though in the right circumstances he would act alone or as a squad leader.

In naruto, they are gradations of leadership and skill. For those with no leadership and only aptitude for hurting people there is ANBU. Special Jounin have jounin skills and the honorary rank but are not full jounin. Elite Jounin like Kakashi and Gai are what we would call special.

[MysticNinjaJay]

Originally Posted by Shrimpusmaximus

Checked the book and no the special jounin are not jounin skill.

The ranks are based loosly off of actual ninja ranking. A Genin was a specialist, not a weakling. He would have a specific role like archer or swordsman and while the whole group would have certain base skills that would be his area of expertise. The chuunin would lead the squad and provide overall knowledge to pick up a role in case of fatalities and a JOunin was a master ninja mostly involved in training though in the right circumstances he would act alone or as a squad leader.

In naruto, they are gradations of leadership and skill. For those with no leadership and only aptitude for hurting people there is ANBU. Special Jounin have jounin skills and the honorary rank but are not full jounin. Elite Jounin like Kakashi and Gai are what we would call special.

Where does it say special Jounin are not of jounin skill in the book? I want to see this for my self. Although the book is second canon it is reliable enough to draw conclusions from so I'll accept it if the book clearly says so. Right now I'm still scratching my head over this pseudo- jounin stuff. You're a jounin but you're not really a jounin? I get it but its still sounds fishy. I'd like to see this book.