Mobile Suit Gundam 00 - Episode 07 Discussion / Poll

[Demongod86]

So another thing I realized...is it me or are they trying to set Marina up as a Relacus? Seriously, she looks like Relena with her hair dyed black, but dresses snazzy like Lacus, and meets Setsuna right around the same ep that Kira met Lacus.

Btw, I gave the ep a 9, because no gundam episode is ever complete without gundam vs. gundam

[wingdarkness]

Originally Posted by Mr_Paper

I only hope he goes after someone other than Setsuna. Why does every ace in the serious have to go after Setsuna? There are other, arguably better, Gundam pilots that could use a combat rival or two.

LOL, so you gonna just quote me like you've been here the whole time? LMAO where the heck have you been man? You caught me outta the woodworx just now...Good to have you back^^....

Anyways, Setsuna like it or not is the main character in the main Gundam...And the blue Gundam is like a bug-zapper because attracts all the fly guys...But I do feel you...I personally hope Graham can go after VIRTUE's a$$ at some point and show up that fashion wreck...

Ugh... that preview. I knew their would be a dynamic between Setsuna and our young/poor Queen, but I was seriously hoping it would happen a little later in the series. With the declaration that they will now fight terrorism, having Setsuna arrive in her country is a given, but somehow it seems a bit too convient and contrived to sit right with me. Although... next week, SWIMSUITS!!!!

Well I was kinda paying attention to everything but the Setsuna coupling when I was talking about the preview...In classic Japanese style I predict the real meat of Setsuna's encounter will be the episode after this one...I'm also sure everybody (like me) pressed pause on that last second scene of the girls in skimpy juiceyness ^0^...

[Crusader]

This ep was slighty disturbing, especially the stuff about Setsuna's family. Other than that, it was a pretty good ep.

[SoldierOfDarkness]

I'm afraid that you've missed the point of my argument - while the numbers are significant for a tiny country like Moralia, it doesn't seem serve as justification for Celestial Being's otherwise unprovoked attack.

I was under the impression that the whole point of the exercise was to provoke CB.

While modern mobile suits like the Flag or Enact might be very expensive, dinky little paramilitary organizations can afford to field (and lose) Hellions and Anfs, so they can't be all that valuable. By a similar token, if the U.S. were to lose 20 M1 tanks, that would also be considered a significant loss, even if the aggregate cost is less than a single F-22 and there are thousands in the inventory.

Well Enacts and Flags aren't even at the mass production stage yet. There are very few lying around. The Realdo's and Hellions are the mainstay of the armies but going from what I saw the PMC's made up the majority of the army while the AEU made up probably less than a tenth of the forces with Moralia making up the third. If they can only field 50 mobile suits, then losing over half of that number IMO is quite signifcant. I mean pilots aren't that easy to come by either.

[winter45]

Very good episode.. Glad to see some setsuna background. I am very glad and surprised at the same time of setsunas past. Kinda of a spinout but very different also.

Enjoyed the intro fight with Ali. Quick and skilled, Unfortuantly the grunts are slowly leaning towards seed/destiny way.. Getting owned too easily

For those who beleives CB are bunch of terrorists who are damn evil, you may wanna watch seed/destiny again.. 2 seasons worth of terrorists activities there for ya. Difference is to me that CB are far more interesting than watching a full cast of emo kids with pixie dust crying out killing is bad..

ok ill stop the rant now

This episode for me deserves a 9 for me.. had everythin i wanted to see. A good fight, some political mumbo jumbo as well as some character developments.

Letting you know also someone else pointed out. Collateral damage is a problem when figting near or at a civilian populations. Unfortuantly it cant always be avoided. War is cruel and no matter how hard you try there will be civilian casualties in a populated hot zone. Now for those MS's that crashed into civilian buildings, many things could of happened. From being shot down from many miles away just to end up anvoidably crashing into civi buildings to mechanical failure after receiving some damage moments before it went down. Doesnt always apply that the MS's just had happend to be shot down where it stood.

Youll find lots of military bases around he world do have civilian population nearby. There are lots of houses around the base where the enlisted men reside. Its very common on most western countries to see this. So in times of war there is a high chance that the civilians could be bombed due its close proximity near these bases.

But thats enough of me talkin.

[Cherudim Arche]

It is still the beginning, there is plenty of time for skill soldiers to come out to use grunt suits well. Probably the new suits will be sent out in such a massive way like the taurus in Wing. So until then, just wait for fight with graham or someone else.

[Ninjacat]

Originally Posted by Ascaloth

Ok, so this is the debate as it stands. People are talking about how Christina and Sumeragi are bitches because they don't seem to show any remorse for doing their jobs in war, even if it is a war they started. I replied that this is because each of CB's members is subject to a chain of command, and should they refuse to do their job, they would be liable for treason; that is why they continue to do their job anyway, because soldiers eventually learn not to think about it.

Therefore, your argument that CB is not a military organization is irrelevant to the discussion, because whether CB is a full military organization, a paramilitary organization, or a "filthy rich terrorist cell", it still shows all the signs of possessing a chain of command. Whether or not CB's members are individually responsible for their own actions should they be captured by one of the Big Powers, has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the fact that they are subject to a chain of command.

Would you like to try again?

No, it's useless to talk to the deaf.

In what crazy world would those people be considered soldiers? No uniforms, no discipline, no code of conduct. Setsuna would have faced court marshal three times if he was in any sane military unit. They're not soldiers in any recognisable shape.

Terrorists follow a chain of command but they're not soldiers and have to take responsibility for the horrors they do. But I guess it helps them sleeping at night.

I'm through with thids argument, it ain't going nowhere. Be proud, you won an internet argument!

[Ninjacat]

Originally Posted by WhiteWings

It's cold hearted but considering there are few other alternatives for CB or others act first and feel bad about it later if anyone of them have even the luxery to do so.

How about making the plans for the solar furnaces public? An plentyfull alternative source of energy would probably do a lot more for world peace than trying to kill everyone, as it would remove nearly 90% of all causes of military conflict.

Just sayin'

[DarkMirage]

Originally Posted by Ninjacat

How about making the plans for the solar furnaces public? An plentyfull alternative source of energy would probably do a lot more for world peace than trying to kill everyone, as it would remove nearly 90% of all causes of military conflict.

Just sayin'

Except that they already have a near-limitless source of energy...

All that will achieve is to give everyone Gundams.

[ashlay]

Originally Posted by Ninjacat

How about making the plans for the solar furnaces public? An plentyfull alternative source of energy would probably do a lot more for world peace than trying to kill everyone, as it would remove nearly 90% of all causes of military conflict.

Just sayin'

so far the series has made it seem like they're not particularly easy to make, somewhat doubt they can be manufactured on a mass scale.

Originally Posted by DarkMirage

Except that they already have a near-limitless source of energy...

All that will achieve is to give everyone Gundams.

except for everyone not in the HRL, Union, or AEU

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

I was under the impression that the whole point of the exercise was to provoke CB.

It was, but it was a really wierd form of provocation; and not one that Celestial Being should have fallen for. As it stands, it only really works by writers' fiat.

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

Well Enacts and Flags aren't even at the mass production stage yet. There are very few lying around. The Realdo's and Hellions are the mainstay of the armies but going from what I saw the PMC's made up the majority of the army while the AEU made up probably less than a tenth of the forces with Moralia making up the third.

Just because an older vehicle is the mainstay of a military doesn't mean that it doesn't have a newer one in mass-production. In fact, this is fairly common in militaries unless they are at war.

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

If they can only field 50 mobile suits, then losing over half of that number IMO is quite signifcant. I mean pilots aren't that easy to come by either.

For a tiny country like Moralia, any losses are significant, but I'm not sure if I understand your point. Are you trying to somehow refute my argument that the older mobile suits likely aren't all that expensive?

Originally Posted by winter45

For those who beleives CB are bunch of terrorists who are damn evil, you may wanna watch seed/destiny again.. 2 seasons worth of terrorists activities there for ya.

As I said earlier, a terrorist action and a nonterrorist action is often dictated by who ends up winning. For the most part, it's not a particularly meaningful distinction. However, it should be noted that Celestial Being operates on very flimsy justification (often to the point of being nonexistent). It's a questionable writing decision, and how good it is is going to depend on how the creators develop this idea.

Originally Posted by winter45

Difference is to me that CB are far more interesting than watching a full cast of emo kids with pixie dust crying out killing is bad..

This remains very much to be seen.

Originally Posted by Ninjacat

In what crazy world would those people be considered soldiers? No uniforms, no discipline, no code of conduct. Setsuna would have faced court marshal three times if he was in any sane military unit. They're not soldiers in any recognisable shape.

I don't think that it's fruitful to define who is and isn't a soldier by such narrow definitions. Celestial Being is indubitably a paramilitary organization, hence it's quite fair to label its members as soldiers. I'd agree that there isn't a whole lot of discipline or much adherence to a military code of conduct (pointing weapons at one another is a particularly big no-no), but that's sort of par for course for Gundam shows. I imagine that their normal suits can be considered a uniform.

Originally Posted by Ninjacat

How about making the plans for the solar furnaces public? An plentyfull alternative source of energy would probably do a lot more for world peace than trying to kill everyone, as it would remove nearly 90% of all causes of military conflict.

I get the feeling that they can't make any more; hence the need for Virtue to return to Ptolemaios, and the importance placed on not losing any. Whether the same goes to either reverse-engineering the technology, or reproducing it from first principles is much more questionable, but it may be on Celestial Being's mind. Then again, we know practically nothing about the organization, much less anything about its leadership, so just about anything is possible at this point.


Off-topic: It's good to see Mr_Paper back. It's been too long...

[Kang Seung Jae]

Originally Posted by Ninjacat

How about making the plans for the solar furnaces public? An plentyfull alternative source of energy would probably do a lot more for world peace than trying to kill everyone, as it would remove nearly 90% of all causes of military conflict.

Just sayin'

You know, there's something I don't get:


Fussion energy is supposed to be successful around 2050. What happened to that research?

If this issue comes up (like Fussion is developed).... we might have another nation seceding from one of the Great Powers, causing a major war.

More chaos will be fun.

[Spideyknight]

Why go for Setsuna? It's simple and real clear: Can Setsuna be any weaker? I mean he's gotten his face kicked in by anyone with a smigeon of skill. They are all in far weaker suit's and yet they can all see he's weak. He decimates his concentration himself, no effort required on the part of his opponent. A enemy like that is easy to expose, easy to manipulate and easy to crush. His piloting skills are sub-par, and if he wasn't in a Gundam he'd be dead. A Gundam will make anyone seem good, but when you just suck, you're going to eventually meet someone who has a skill advantage on you and you are going to die. Tierra should've shot him when he had the chance. That's strike two for Setsuna F. Seiei, and you're only as strong as your weakest link.

On a side note: This show is quickly becoming my favorite, that various strategies, ploys, and plots are all intertwined and in a believable way is interesting. Anyway, if Setsuna continues to be the exposed and vulnerable weakling you can expect everyone to aim for him, it's the smart thing to do.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Kang Seung Jae

Fussion energy is supposed to be successful around 2050. What happened to that research?

Do you mean that fusion is supposed to be developed in 2050 in Gundam 00's universe, or in the real world? If it's the latter, fusion has been 20-30 years away since the '60s, so it isn't unreasonable for a science fictional world to not have it as an energy source. As it doesn't seem to be in play in 2307, it might never show up at all. Alternatively, the "solar furnace" technology and GN particles might be the way Gundam 00's version of fusion technology. Either way, if someone were to independently discover a non-GN version of fusion in Gundam 00, it would ruin much of the narrative, and the attendant geopolitical situation, so I doubt the creators will go with that.

Originally Posted by Spideyknight

On a side note: This show is quickly becoming my favorite, that various strategies, ploys, and plots are all intertwined and in a believable way is interesting.

Sigh... I don't want to criticize you, Spideyknight, but your statement sort of epitomizes what's been wrong with Gundam 00's geopolitics so far.

[Nightengale]

Originally Posted by Mr_Paper

Ugh... that preview. I knew their would be a dynamic between Setsuna and our young/poor Queen, but I was seriously hoping it would happen a little later in the series. With the declaration that they will now fight terrorism, having Setsuna arrive in her country is a given, but somehow it seems a bit too convient and contrived to sit right with me. Although... next week, SWIMSUITS!!!!

Who says they're going to be meeting each other in her nation?

Unless there's going to be a timeskip, she should still probably be touring/begging for aid. It can't just be one country. Besides, from the looks of things, she's not yet stepped onto the doors of those who 'really' hold influential power, even if just in AEU.

Though frankly, if they're going to be meeting in a park (( that seems to be the only place Setsuna goes )) by accident while he's off-duty and she-sight seeing after/before doing her job, that's far more convenient and contrived anyway.

Animes and their accidental meeting of fates, you learn to love them.

[winter45]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

As I said earlier, a terrorist action and a nonterrorist action is often dictated by who ends up winning. For the most part, it's not a particularly meaningful distinction. However, it should be noted that Celestial Being operates on very flimsy justification (often to the point of being nonexistent). It's a questionable writing decision, and how good it is is going to depend on how the creators develop this idea.

This is were i disagree with you... People can get alot governments to publicly claim alot of bull$hit, but doesnt mean im going to beleive them. Just because terrorists won or lost doesnt mean nothin to someone who knows what terrorists does. A terrorist is a terrorist you can tell by the actions they take. Thats how I identify a terrorist regardless who wins or loses. It may be official they have won but doesnt mean they are not terrorists.

BTW i never mentioned that I beleive that CB are terrorists

Originally Posted by 4Tran

This remains very much to be seen.

Just pointing out this is my personal opinion.

I apoligise i dont how to quote within a quote

[Kang Seung Jae]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Do you mean that fusion is supposed to be developed in 2050 in Gundam 00's universe, or in the real world? If it's the latter, fusion has been 20-30 years away since the '60s, so it isn't unreasonable for a science fictional world to not have it as an energy source. As it doesn't seem to be in play in 2307, it might never show up at all. Alternatively, the "solar furnace" technology and GN particles might be the way Gundam 00's version of fusion technology. Either way, if someone were to independently discover a non-GN version of fusion in Gundam 00, it would ruin much of the narrative, and the attendant geopolitical situation, so I doubt the creators will go with that.

On the contrary, that could be one of the main reasons for conflict.

Given that the 3 superpowers use their solar power to pretty much dictate their means, any threat to that power could cause enormous clashes around the war.

Let's say that Korea (who does have a almost functional fusion test reactor atm) succeeded. Once that happens, HRA will probably attempt to destroy the project to retain their hegemony, while potential nationalists in Korea could use the power to start distrupting the powerlines so that they are untouchable. This alone is enough to get CB involved.

If Korea manages to survive, then the entire world balance woudl be thrown off. Such poor nations as Azadistan would start to ally themselves with Korea, setting in place a force power that could destroy the tripolar political world, making warfare a more importan part of life. Once that happens, CB could be in a position where they would have to overstretch themselves.

This is just a stab at how future energy source can be important in a energy-prone world such as Anno Domini.

[osmium]

phew tons of stuff to talk about.

First, is Celestial Being not a "county" by some definition? I mean technically they have land on the L3 asteroid. Are they not simply a country like say North Korea where we simply don't integrate them into the world economy in the same way because they haven't agreed to play by the rules? Does this not make Azadistan nearly the same? Too small of a country to bother with, didn't contribute to the elevators. I guess the only thing that is different is that they are obviously on the maps...

I also wanted to add to the whole "terrorist" debate a little. I think a much more useful way to think about it is, in a combat, is your enemy declared? Do you know who you are fighting. If you do, than you are de facto a step above many terrorists, who only "claim" to have done things. (I've always wondered how they "claim" to be responsible and people believe them). Also remember that laws are made by the strong, or those in power. Democracy was until recently quite an "evil" thing to do in China. I'll agree that perhaps by some specification that Celestial Being is less "allowed" to wage war in the traditional sense.
But take a step back and look from this perspective. War brings about death, both of those fighting and of those simply caught in the cross fire. Now these machines of war that the three nations have... they have because they intend to use them. There is no nuclear fall out, or similarly self damaging effect caused by using the weapondry, so it's not the peace through strength (hidden craft in the elevator? serves no purpose other than to fight, it obviously isn't a deterrent if no one knows about it. So these three nations would have had battles, and wars etc remember the whole premise is that they're still fighting a zero sum game. So who is actually more in the right? Those who fight to stop war, or those who fight because they've got pride? It's clear that there isn't really an economic component, they've got "near unlimited" energy. Which means they've got near infinite economic output, unless they've started reaching the raw resource limits of the earth... which I highly doubt, they just probably reuse the stuff they've already mined. With infinite energy it doesn't matter if you need to go through some energy intensive process to strip out all the alloying agents in a metal to get raw materials again. So these nations are fighting simply because they want to maintain control, they want power, they want things to stay the same. Clearly nothing would be lost culture or economic wise if the countries all just agreed to have some form of representative democracy of the governments, and then each could rule as they please within their own country. I don't think the moral superiority is clearly in the hands of any party.

To those that have qualms with the way the politics are playing out, why do you? Personally I thought they were well thought out.

Opinion on the way CB's organization works. Veda is just the intelligence department. They make recommendations and give options and they have opinions. But Sumeragi is the one calling the shots, at least militarily as far as I can tell. Not sure where Wong et al all fit in yet. Or if there is another layer to the whole thing (like OMG fooled you gundams haha you're really evil evil[GSD anyone?])... but if we take it at face value, CB is a very small outfit, and hence they can afford to not have a true commander on the ground, especially when it appears that they've got ample real time intelligence on the goings on of the battleground. Sumeragi can make changes to the plan on the fly, and the 4 gundams can deal with the fight on the ground in the particular manner they see fit. Veda Plans, Sumeragi chooses, initiates and guides through, and the gundams do it. The girls are just tech support, that allow for data to flow back and forth from the field to Sumeragi...

-O

[Kang Seung Jae]

Originally Posted by osmium

Veda is just the intelligence department.

Correction: Veda is a supercomputer that calculates scenarios.

[Kang Seung Jae]

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

There are two types of commanders, those who are cowards and sacrifice their men needlessly, and then there's those who bleed with their men in the field. Guess who I, and the soldiers in the feel have more respect for?

And there are commanders who weeps while sacrificing their men, because they couldn't save them.

I know, I was once in the same position.

Originally Posted by The Small One

After seeing a sub:
What are those solar furnaces they mention a few times in this episode? Was this mentioned before?

The GN Drive, which is also referred to as the "Solar Generator".