Character Discussion - Lelouch

[Rising Dragon]

Originally Posted by ZingFreelancer

That was interesting, but what about Nunnally?
She was geassed to keep her ayes closed, but managed to open them up by her own will. Nor did it seem that she struggle greatly in order to overcome geass.

We've seen with both Euphemia and Nunnally that it is possible to resist the power of Geass--both Euphemia and Nunnally tried to resist Geass commands they did not agree with, though neither one failed, and Nunnally was able to conquer the Geass placed on her by her father.

As for the struggle, yes, it didn't look like she struggled that much. Personally, that's because I believe it was not when she conquered the Geass. I feel she conquered it and first opened her eyes when she was looking for the Key of Damocles after Suzaku's assault on Damocles knocked her out of her wheelchair: in one of the scenes, you see her suddenly cease her movement, and then turn her head right towards the Key.

She may have struggled to get her eyes open then, struggled more than when she did with Lelouch present; we just don't see it.

[Knight Of Zero]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

We've seen with both Euphemia and Nunnally that it is possible to resist the power of Geass--both Euphemia and Nunnally tried to resist Geass commands they did not agree with, though neither one failed, and Nunnally was able to conquer the Geass placed on her by her father.

As for the struggle, yes, it didn't look like she struggled that much. Personally, that's because I believe it was not when she conquered the Geass. I feel she conquered it and first opened her eyes when she was looking for the Key of Damocles after Suzaku's assault on Damocles knocked her out of her wheelchair: in one of the scenes, you see her suddenly cease her movement, and then turn her head right towards the Key.

She may have struggled to get her eyes open then, struggled more than when she did with Lelouch present; we just don't see it.

OR maybe it because Lelouch had a stronger geass than the emperor. Euphe struggle when the order was given so maybe it possible for one to overcome it power. Is it because his geass evolve and became too powerful for Euphe to overcome, While Nunnally perhap gave and even stronger resistance but his geass was way to strong at that time.

[Rising Dragon]

Originally Posted by Knight Of Zero

OR maybe it because Lelouch had a stronger geass than the emperor. Euphe struggle when the order was given so maybe it possible for one to overcome it power. Is it because his geass evolve and became too powerful for Euphe to overcome, While Nunnally perhap gave and even stronger resistance but his geass was way to strong at that time.

... no, not really, since its the Geass of Absolute Obedience. I'd have been more liable to believe that theory if it weren't for the fact that we've never seen it fail at all for Lelouch.

[Knight Of Zero]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

... no, not really, since its the Geass of Absolute Obedience. I'd have been more liable to believe that theory if it weren't for the fact that we've never seen it fail at all for Lelouch.

So it makes no different if his geass evolve or not. Is that what your trying to say?

[Rising Dragon]

Originally Posted by Knight Of Zero

So it makes no different if his geass evolve or not. Is that what your trying to say?

Pretty much. The effects of Lelouch's Geass has never changed, except for his Geass power becoming permanent after a certain point. We've never seen or heard of it failing, nor have we even been given any suspicion that it doesn't always work--only that someone can resist an order if it goes against everything that person believes in. Even then, the Geass works; we saw both Euphy and Nunnally succumb to it.

[ZingFreelancer]

Unless you are on a verge of death, the geass dont function properly.
We seen it fail on Clovis, in a way. I guess if he give an unrealistic command, it will fail.

Also, Nunnally on the floor looking for the key, then suddenly get tiered of not being able to see shit. She just opens her ayes and stare at the key.
How ever, in first episode when Lelouch gets his memories back, he says that he always had this stagnation feeling of something not being right/ of something missing.

[Rising Dragon]

Originally Posted by ZingFreelancer

Unless you are on a verge of death, the geass dont function properly.
We seen it fail on Clovis, in a way. I guess if he give an unrealistic command, it will fail.

What do you mean, failed on Clovis?

[Jaime Kordek]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

What do you mean, failed on Clovis?

He's probably referring to the fact that Clovis could not give him any useful information about Marianne's murder. Clovis could not tell him what he didn't know, hence the failure of the Geass to do the impossible.

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by Rydrallen

Firstly I do not believe that a person's gender had anything to do with how he or she would perceive the world. The methodologies emphasized may have been different, but the conclusions derived would be similar.

Yes, if there is such a thing as an objective world, the conclusions derived should be similar. On aggregate. However, both intuitive analytical knowledge and experience-based synthetic knowledge can lead to false conclusions.

...

The differences in the cognitive processes across genders are not significant enough to cause a divergence in the conclusion one would arrive at given the vivid experiences and evidences shown in the world of CG.

In fact, Nunnally herself planned to facilitate peace by concentrating the world's hatred on Damoscles. And to achieve this she fired nukes towards the Britannian forces, illustrating that in the end Nunnally finally realized that the task of facilitating world peace calls for a price greater than 'just being kind and gentle'.

Given that both Nunnally (a girl) and Lelouch (a boy) ultimately reached the same conclusion on how to effectively facilitate world peace on their own, your hypothesis of gender differences is brittle as best.

I never claimed that guys and girls must come to different conclusions. I just said that the way they learn is different. The way Lelouch learned to want tomorrow, and to give other people tomorrow, is distinctly male. Or rather, his behaviour is distinctly male. Nunally is also rather stereotypically female. Y'know? I'm saying there is a reason for each characters gender, in a way that helps the story. The characters generally fit their gender. Thus, switching them around would produce a new story that, while certainly very interesting, would also be incoherent/inconsistent and lose much of what the original story had.

Originally Posted by Goldarmy

I didn't meant to be condescending and I am not a Grammar Nazi but the word infantely just stood out. Feel free to point out my mistakes.

The thing is, I am a grammar nazi (towards myself, and anybody who asks me to edit their work). So just pointing out the mistake would have been fine (and indeed is appreciated, I won't make the same mistake again).

Lelouche wasn't exactly an average ordinary person and neither Lelandra Lamperouge (Female Lelouche) would be. We are talking about a princess who happens to be hiding in Japan that has a huge hate of Britannia meets her best friend from childhood, and releases a mysterious woman who is willing to give her superpowers, which is just what she needs to launch her scheme to destroy Britannia. And she will do it in a Haloween suit.

Yes, and? I never said that 'Lelandra' had to be average and ordinary, just that she had to be recognizably female.

No. Your analysis is based on the assumptions that male and female cogintive processes are completely different; and all members of a gender are homogeneous. At least that is how it looks to me. Please remember that I am not a social sciences professor.

Not completely different. I'm just saying that of the two modes for acquiring knowledge, each gender has a clear preference. As for homogeneity, not really. Tell me this: what is the point of a genderbending? What prevents you, aside from all the in-show references to Lelouch as a male, from considering him a female?

See, members of a gender aren't homogenous. Lelouch could just be a flatchested girl who likes crossdressing. Maybe she likes her hair to be cut short. Maybe she just has a (particularly) unusually deep voice. There's really nothing you have to change, is there?

But you know, no. I'm sure Lelandra would have boobs. She would dress like a girl and at least have a ponytail. She certainly wouldn't sound like Lelouch. I mean, that's the whole point, isn't it? To change Lelouch into someone recognizably female; or rather maybe, even attractively female?

I'm just applying the same standard to personality. Just as genderbending Lelouch involves changing the physical features which make him fall into our general schema for 'male' into features which would make her fall into our general schema for 'female', it should also involve changing his mental features as well. Claiming just his personality is 'extraordinary' doesn't cut it: there are male parts of him, and those need to be changed for a female. Just flat out replacing Lelouch with a person who was physically female but who otherwise entirely retained his personality would leave all sorts of problems for believability. She offers Kallen a cover up for her terrorist phone conversation by referencing a net game? She doesn't get what Shirley is after when she invites her to go to the opera? She skips school to go gambling with Rivalz??? He is obviously too much of a desperate loser for a girl to spend so much time alone with. It just doesn't work.

Yes I do. Lelandra could easily delude herself that her selfish actions are for the kind world Nunnaly wants. Because females can use excuses to justify their selfish actions just like males. In fact we see evidence of this in Geass with Marianne who thought that crippling her daughter, dumping both children into a place that will become a warzone and initiating Instrumentality was all for the goodness of her children. And she is the mother of Lelandra.

Did Marianne fall into a crippling depression when she discovered she wasn't (doing it for the goodness of her children)? See, Marianne might have been making excuses , but Lelouch wasn't. His genuine intention was to give Nunally what she wanted. As he said at the time, Zero had no purpose without her.

It wasn't delusion. Lelouch was misunderstanding reality, not denying it. His inability to understand Nunally even when he wanted to, even when she was the most principle reason for his existance, is something distinctly male.

It can't be counted as normal. Lelandra said goodbye to a normal life the day her mother died. She had witnessed the horrible results of war and waited in fear for the day assasins showing up to finish their work.

I'm talking about culturally normal. The gender behaviour expected of them. Y'know. Boys play with cars; girls play with dolls? More to Lelouch's level: men protect women; women understand men. The basis for male and female concerns with dominance over an objective physical world and acceptance into a subjective interpersonal reality (respectively) is established and reinforced. Just in case the genetics didn't do it already, I mean.

This determination is shared by both boy and girls. Lelandra would also have an analytic mind by being a rising chessmaster.

I recently read the wikipedia article on Kant, so I've been using that definition of 'analytic'. It doesn't really have anything to do with chess. Math and physics provide an analogy. Analytic knowledge is purely ideal: it's derived from a mental understanding of the relationships between the definitions of abstract concepts. Essentially, 'deductive knowledge': absolute truths. Synthetic knowledge is purely concrete: it is derived from generalized experience. 'Inductive knowledge': relative probabilities. So math is analytical: the abstract manipulation of pure numbers. Physics (well, the science of it) is synthetic: the generalization from and application of concrete data.

How could it be weak? Children, boy or girl, grow up with the idea that parents are there to protect/care them.

Lelouche also approached Charles seeking to understand.

Considering she found her mother dead and her sister blind and she will be pissed off and demanding as well.

lol, not really. Lelouch was trying to be a man. His thought process was basically "If father won't protect them, I will!". That's really the only explanation for his haughty arrogance in addressing his father. He was just trying to show off: "Then I..do not need to be a successor to the throne!"? What's with that? "I don't need you anymore! *raspberries*" lol. That's why I said his conviction was weak: he was shocked when his father called him out on it.

I doubt Lelandra would so readily decide she didn't need him. She wouldn't be that arrogant. Girls aren't really pressed to show off, y'know? They don't get into duels over pride. Lelandra would not be angry. She would be sad. It's okay for girls to be sad, y'know? "Remarkable strength" was how the aristocrats gossiped, but in the end it wasn't quite real. I don't think Lelandra would have provoked her father into exiling her when what she wanted was actually the exact opposite.

No, she will accept it as an absolute truth just like Lelouche did. Do you even understand the importance of parents role in a child's upbringing? And fathers are more important role models for girls.

What, "I will live by my own power because daddy said so"? I already brought that up. You're really not addressing me on the level of my argument, though. Lelouch lived by his own power because he made a mental, idealogical connection between 'living' and 'self-sufficiency'. Lelandra would do so because if she didn't, she knew (from experience) that her father would reject her. Such a thing would quickly become irrelevant once she was abandoned and began hating Britannia, though. A parents words will only influence a child affirmatively if the child wants the parents approval, after all.

Since her mother is assasinated, her sister is crippled, her father not giving a damn what happens to them and Britannia court is as byzantine as any other she has all the reason to reject/suspect kindness.

What, from everybody? But you know, that's a perfect example of synthetic knowledge: if she rejected kindness 'cause every example in the past had been an attempt at using her, she learned it on the basis of concrete experience. I don't think she'd be stupid enough to generalize from the Britannian courts to everybody, but it would be. Lelouch, though, as I pointed out, rejected kindness to live by his own power; it wasn't really about others' intentions, but his own ideas about what it meant to 'live'.

Anyway, enough of this. Get back to the Suzaku thread: people are stirring up shit about Suzaku again.

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

She offers Kallen a cover up for her terrorist phone conversation by referencing a net game?

Hu? o.o
Why not?
I mean, there are enough girls out there who are really into net games.

She doesn't get what Shirley is after when she invites her to go to the opera?

You know, if she was aromantic, she could still be completely clueless.
Not that all aromantic miss obvious signals, but there are enough.
Why? Because they really don't get this whole "dating thing".

She skips school to go gambling with Rivalz??? He is obviously too much of a desperate loser for a girl to spend so much time alone with. It just doesn't work.

That's your opinion.
If I had someone like Rivalz as a friend, I'd love to hang out with him.
He is fun, nice and loyal.
I like him.

I'm talking about culturally normal. The gender behaviour expected of them. Y'know. Boys play with cars; girls play with dolls? More to Lelouch's level: men protect women; women understand men. The basis for male and female concerns with dominance over an objective physical world and acceptance into a subjective interpersonal reality (respectively) is established and reinforced. Just in case the genetics didn't do it already, I mean.

So C.C is a typical girl?
And Rolo a typical boy?
I think Code Geass would have made a female Lelouch hot, but that's about all that would have been different.
Much more interesting. ;P
Oh, and maybe she would have gotten into weird situations with Suzaku. xD

lol, not really. Lelouch was trying to be a man. His thought process was basically "If father won't protect them, I will!". That's really the only explanation for his haughty arrogance in addressing his father. He was just trying to show off: "Then I..do not need to be a successor to the throne!"? What's with that? "I don't need you anymore! *raspberries*"

Cornelia would have reacted similar.

I doubt Lelandra would so readily decide she didn't need him. She wouldn't be that arrogant. Girls aren't really pressed to show off, y'know? They don't get into duels over pride. Lelandra would not be angry. She would be sad. It's okay for girls to be sad, y'know? "Remarkable strength" was how the aristocrats gossiped, but in the end it wasn't quite real. I don't think Lelandra would have provoked her father into exiling her when what she wanted was actually the exact opposite.

Oh yes, and I think Cornelia would have went into a corner and cried. Because she's a girl - she's allowed to be sad.
...Or maybe she would have just conquered the world for Euphie.
We'll never know.
Same goes for female Lelouch.

What, from everybody? But you know, that's a perfect example of synthetic knowledge: if she rejected kindness 'cause every example in the past had been an attempt at using her, she learned it on the basis of concrete experience. I don't think she'd be stupid enough to generalize from the Britannian courts to everybody, but it would be.

There are enough female anime characters who have done something similar.
So why shouldn't a female Lelouch?
But I think I get what you mean. I just mostly disagree. o.o

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

When it comes to all that gender stuff, I agree with Goldarmy.
I really don't get where the assumption that girls can't become mistrusting, bitter and hateful is coming from.
It's not Lelouch's gender that made him into who he was, it's his past.
Maybe a girl would have done some things slightly different, but that would mostly be because girls are treated differently than boys. For example, Shirley probably wouldn't have fallen for a female Lelouch. ;P
...Probably. xD

Never said anything about Lelouch being bitter, mistrusting, and hateful. What's male about Lelouch is his unawareness of people's feelings (even his own), and his heavily idealized way of thinking.

Things like "Shoot if you are willing to be shot". "The strong should not trample the weak". "To truly live is to live by your own power". "Become evil to overcome evil". "Push away the things you hold dear". These ideas are all well and good, but do you think they are absolutes? What kind of person lives by holding himself in strict adherence to these laws? These are idealized statements, representative of a complex internal idealogy that is more based on thought than physical reality. Someone of Lelouch's intelligence thinks he understands everything: he adapts his experiences in the physical world so that they will fit into his idealogical system. Lelouch considers his own perspective as the singular objective truth.

That is male. It is far more male than female. Because females are wired genetically to be more aware of other people's reality. Because they are more aware of who they are, their actions are guided by experience intuitively rather than absolute mental laws. For females, idealogy is a subjective matter: "what I believe is what I believe; what they believe is what they believe. Neither one of us is necessarily better or more correct--the world is full of people who each percieve a unique reality." A female of Lelouch's intelligence is not guided by any laws or absolutes (take Nina): rather, she takes an intuitive path based on her past experience (Nina's comparison and subsequent idolization of Euphemia versus Milly for being truly kind; Nina's creation and subsequent neutralization of Fleija after seeing it's true destructiveness).

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

So C.C is a typical girl?
And Rolo a typical boy?
I think Code Geass would have made a female Lelouch hot, but that's about all that would have been different.
Much more interesting. ;P
Oh, and maybe she would have gotten into weird situations with Suzaku. xD

C.C. is rather typically female. Rolo...I'm drawing a blank in my head trying to think about him. That little punk. What was he like again?

Anyway, if it would be much more interesting, why d'you think Sunrise didn't make it that way? You don't think Lelouch being male added anything to the story? Made it more plausible? Made the relationships more interesting? I mean c'mon, Lelouch's relationship with his father is obvious so oedipal. His inferiority complex towards Schniezel. His utter disregard for Clovis. Then there's how Lelouch's interactions with half the female cast can only be described as 'typical harem lead'. Lelouch's maleness is basically integral to Code Geass' story.

Cornelia would have reacted similar.

Really? 10 year old Cornelia? And you think she would have been all shocked when Charles told her she was dead 'cause she'd never done anything and exiled her to Japan? Listen, it's not just Lelouch's arrogance that was male in that scene: it was the fakeness of that arrogance as well.

Oh yes, and I think Cornelia would have went into a corner and cried. Because she's a girl - she's allowed to be sad.
...Or maybe she would have just conquered the world for Euphie.
We'll never know.
Same goes for female Lelouch.

Cornelia was well adjusted. She had healthy relationships with all her siblings. I really don't think she would have killed Clovis or had an inferiority complex towards Schniezel. She doesn't even really seem to care for her mother, idolizing Marianne instead. And could you imagine Cornelia misgeassing Nunally and then deciding to kill her for it? Seriously, that's just so wrong.

There are enough female anime characters who have done something similar.
So why shouldn't a female Lelouch?
But I think I get what you mean. I just mostly disagree. o.o

There are enough female anime characters who have, after being mistreated by aristocracy, decided to reject kindness from everybody? No, not really. If what you're saying is that there are many female characters who are socially redrawn due to bad experiences in the past, then yes, that's true, and that actually fits my theory for females learning from synthetic experience. But you know, that actually has nothing to do with male Lelouch, who rejected the kindness of others (and only that--Lelouch wasn't an emo or anything) due to his ideological belief that you're dead unless you live by your own power--not because of his experience with the aristocracy. See, a female version of that is the example you'll have to provide to even remotely disprove my male-female distinction.

[Jaime Kordek]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Really? 10 year old Cornelia? And you think she would have been all shocked when Charles told her she was dead 'cause she'd never done anything and exiled her to Japan? Listen, it's not just Lelouch's arrogance that was male in that scene: it was the fakeness of that arrogance as well.

Ok, I'm not going to get into the psychology of all this, but I will just say that while it's true that men and women tend to act differently, there are plenty of people who act counter to the standard. Just because someone is male or female doesn't ensure they will act one way or another, it may make it more likely, but it doesn't make it a certainty. ESPECIALLY because they are children, and so are even less likely to follow societal norms. And as for the 'fake' arrogance, that's not male or female, I've seen children of both genders act like that, and adults for that matter.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Cornelia was well adjusted. She had healthy relationships with all her siblings. I really don't think she would have killed Clovis or had an inferiority complex towards Schniezel. She doesn't even really seem to care for her mother, idolizing Marianne instead. And could you imagine Cornelia misgeassing Nunally and then deciding to kill her for it? Seriously, that's just so wrong.

As to this, Lelouch did not kill Euphie because he misgeassed her, he killed her to put her out of her misery. She had become everything she hated, and if she had survived, she would have become even a greater monster, and would have ended up locked away somewhere, or dead by other means.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

That is male. It is far more male than female. Because females are wired genetically to be more aware of other people's reality. Because they are more aware of who they are, their actions are guided by experience intuitively rather than absolute mental laws. For females, idealogy is a subjective matter: "what I believe is what I believe; what they believe is what they believe. Neither one of us is necessarily better or more correct--the world is full of people who each percieve a unique reality." A female of Lelouch's intelligence is not guided by any laws or absolutes (take Nina): rather, she takes an intuitive path based on her past experience (Nina's comparison and subsequent idolization of Euphemia versus Milly for being truly kind; Nina's creation and subsequent neutralization of Fleija after seeing it's true destructiveness).

Oh my god, I can't believe I missed this, but you say that Nina is someone who doesn't believe in ideology? She's a racist! She spends the entire first season fearing and hating Japanese people! She doesn't allow others to intrude upon her worldview, she wholly relies on absolutes, The Elevens are bad and scary, Euphemia can do no wrong, only after Fleija does she begin to change.

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by Jaime Kordek

Ok, I'm not going to get into the psychology of all this, but I will just say that while it's true that men and women tend to act differently, there are plenty of people who act counter to the standard. Just because someone is male or female doesn't ensure they will act one way or another, it may make it more likely, but it doesn't make it a certainty. ESPECIALLY because they are children, and so are even less likely to follow societal norms. And as for the 'fake' arrogance, that's not male or female, I've seen children of both genders act like that, and adults for that matter.

What kind of ~10 year olds of either gender have you seen have their mother die in front of their eyes? I'm not talking false bravado on the playground here. This is Lelouch showing off in front of the whole Britannian court about his mother's death because his little punk mind thinks he's more man than his father. You find me a little girl like that. "I'm more man than daddy. And my daddy is Charles."

As to this, Lelouch did not kill Euphie because he misgeassed her, he killed her to put her out of her misery. She had become everything she hated, and if she had survived, she would have become even a greater monster, and would have ended up locked away somewhere, or dead by other means.

Yes, and? It still isn't right to punish someone if they're not responsible for their actions. You know what Lelouch could always have done? Put Euphie in a box (large as you like, just without Japanese; the homeland would do just fine), revealed Geass (demonstrate it) and what he'd done to the public, turned himself in, and petitioned somebody to find Euphie a remedy (C.C., Cornelia, Charles, the general public, whoever. Orange even. Just someone who'd actually try.). It wouldn't even take that long. A cure was available by the next year.

Then let Euphie herself decide whether she wants to kill herself. Y'know? It's just decent. Lelouch cared more about his revenge than Euphie, plain and simple. It's pretty sad. Her whole life she was looked down upon, by the people she cared for most (Lelouch, Cornelia, Schneizel). Well, aside from Suzaku and Nina who idealized her. Still pretty bad. And she died for trying to help them.

Oh my god, I can't believe I missed this, but you say that Nina is someone who doesn't believe in ideology? She's a racist! She spends the entire first season fearing and hating Japanese people! She doesn't allow others to intrude upon her worldview, she wholly relies on absolutes, The Elevens are bad and scary, Euphemia can do no wrong, only after Fleija does she begin to change.

I know Nina's not very popular, but if you're going to try to talk about her at least show some passing familiarity with her scenes. Nina isn't ideologically opposed to the Japanese. Season 1, Stage 8, it is revealed that Nina was once left abandoned in an eleven ghetto. Nina is a frail girl. She is introverted and lacks confidence. Given that Nina's reaction was to the dark of a subway tunnel, she was probably left at night. How do you think that would have affected her?

Nina didn't hate the Japanese, she was fucking terrified of them. Furthermore, this was on the basis of experience, not ideology--hey, what did I say?

[Jaime Kordek]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

What kind of ~10 year olds of either gender have you seen have their mother die in front of their eyes? I'm not talking false bravado on the playground here. This is Lelouch showing off in front of the whole Britannian court about his mother's death because his little punk mind thinks he's more man than his father. You find me a little girl like that. "I'm more man than daddy. And my daddy is Charles."

If a boy can do it a girl can do it. It's fairly unrealistic for either.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Yes, and? It still isn't right to punish someone if they're not responsible for their actions. You know what Lelouch could always have done? Put Euphie in a box, revealed Geass (and proved it) to the public, turned himself in, and petitioned somebody to find Euphie a remedy (C.C., Cornelia, Charles, the general public, whoever. Orange even. Just someone who'd actually try.). It wouldn't even take that long. A cure was available by the next year.

Then let Euphie herself decide whether she wants to kill herself. Y'know?

It wasn't punishment, that's like saying killing Old Yeller is punishment for having rabies, it's not. He did it because he KNEW Euphemia would not want to go around killing Japanese people, she was one of two people who managed to resist his Geass even momentarily, every part of her being hated what she was doing. And no, he couldn't have put her in a box, Suzaku was there, and would have 'rescued her'. As far as he knew, there was no possible cure.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

I know Nina's not very popular, but if you're going to try to talk about her at least show some passing familiarity with her scenes. Nina isn't ideologically opposed to the Japanese. Season 1, Stage 8, it is revealed that Nina was once left abandoned in an eleven ghetto. Nina is a frail girl. She is introverted and lacks confidence. Given that Nina's reaction was to the dark of a subway tunnel, she was probably left at night. How do you think that would have affected her?

Nina didn't hate the Japanese, she was fucking terrified of them. Furthermore, this was on the basis of experience, not ideology--hey, what did I say?

You're right, I didn't remember that scene. My argument there is defunct, but I still completely disagree with your argument of Ideology vs. Experience for males and females. But I'm not a psychologist, and it's 2 AM, so I'll leave this point be.

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by Jaime Kordek

If a boy can do it a girl can do it. It's fairly unrealistic for either.

This a maxim you apply to life? There are differences between guys and girls you know. All sexes were not created equal. Or even if they were, equal != same.

It wasn't punishment, that's like saying killing Old Yeller is punishment for having rabies, it's not. He did it because he KNEW Euphemia would not want to go around killing Japanese people, she was one of two people who managed to resist his Geass even momentarily, every part of her being hated what she was doing. And no, he couldn't have put her in a box, Suzaku was there, and would have 'rescued her'. As far as he knew, there was no possible cure.

Y'know, Lelouch didn't just kill Old Yeller for having rabies. He killed him for having rabies, and then shat on his corpse. Excuse me for hijacking your analogy. Nonetheless, it might not have been punishment, but it certainly wasn't mercy.

Why would Suzaku being there stop him? Turning himself in was already part of what I mentioned. Knock her out, explain the situation, and have her shipped off to Britannia. It's not about whether or not there was a cure. It was about whether Lelouch deserved to get off scot free with ruining an innocent person's life.

You're right, I didn't remember that scene. My argument there is defunct, but I still completely disagree with your argument of Ideology vs. Experience for males and females. But I'm not a psychologist, and it's 2 AM, so I'll leave this point be.

To be honest, I'm not a psychologist either. But I did take a couple courses, and read some other wikipedia articles. Learning is exciting, and applying it moreso. I'm not just pulling this crap out of my ass, okay (lol, bad pun. There's a lot of scat in this post, I apologize.).

[Jaime Kordek]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

This a maxim you apply to life? There are differences between guys and girls you know. All sexes were not created equal. Or even if they were, equal != same.

I'm not saying that they're the same, I'm saying they are both capable of the same action. Maybe it's more likely for a male, but that doesn't preclude a female from being capable of it.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Y'know, Lelouch didn't just kill Old Yeller for having rabies. He killed him for having rabies, and then shat on his corpse. Excuse me for hijacking your analogy. Nonetheless, it might not have been punishment, but it certainly wasn't mercy.

Why would Suzaku being there stop him? Turning himself in was already part of what I mentioned. Knock her out, explain the situation, and have her shipped off to Britannia. It's not about whether or not there was a cure. It was about whether Lelouch deserved to get off scot free with ruining an innocent person's life.

If Lelouch had turned himself in at that point, it would have completely destroyed any hope of there being a free Japan. The Black Knights would have fractured and never recovered, the Japanese would never again trust Brittanians, and random terrorist actions would have risen immensely.

As for Lelouch getting off scot free, the Zero Requiem was practically his attempt at atonement for that. Not only did he make himself a figure so horrible that he would completely eclipse Euphie from history, but then he essentially killed himself for it. I don't really consider that scot free.

Once Euphemia had started the massacre there, the only way it could end was with her death. Even if Lelouch had turned himself in, Brittania, and especially Charles, would never allow him to reveal the truth of Geass to the public.

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Cornelia was well adjusted. She had healthy relationships with all her siblings. I really don't think she would have killed Clovis or had an inferiority complex towards Schniezel.

I agree with that, but that's because Cornelia is Cornelia - not because she's female.
Lelouch always had some issues, and they only increased over time.

Y'know, Lelouch didn't just kill Old Yeller for having rabies. He killed him for having rabies, and then shat on his corpse.

So what?
I would have done the same in his place (if I didn't panic, that is).
Lelouch once said that he had to continue shedding blood so that the blood already spilled was not in vain, and I agree with that.
What does Euphemia care if people think she was an evil witch? She's dead.
The people who suffered most after her death were Cornelia, Suzaku and, yes, Lelouch.
But Cornelia and Suzaku would have still been heartbroken if she died a hero - just slightly less bitter.
Euphie's death, however, would have been completely in vain. Lelouch tried to give it a purpose instead.

Why would Suzaku being there stop him? Turning himself in was already part of what I mentioned. Knock her out, explain the situation, and have her shipped off to Britannia. It's not about whether or not there was a cure. It was about whether Lelouch deserved to get off scot free with ruining an innocent person's life.

It was never about what Lelouch deserved.
Only about Nunally and, later on, people's happiness in general.
The only thing Lelouch deserved was a life in a better world, even though he would probably be inclined to disagree.
I wouldn't have turned myself in, either - nor for something as pointless as receiving "punishment" for my crimes.
Even if I was a more selfless person and had a dying wish, I would have gone to Suzaku and asked him to just shoot me, not turned myself in.
That would have been a stupid, over-sentimental and even selfish thing to do.

[leechbox]

I have a question, is he still alive? Like i know that you can either choose to make him alive or not, but is there any proof or facts that lelouch is alive? And is there going to be a OVA?

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by leechbox

I have a question, is he still alive? Like i know that you can either choose to make him alive or not, but is there any proof or facts that lelouch is alive? And is there going to be a OVA?

He's dead, it's confirmed. No OVA or anything like that.

[leechbox]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

He's dead, it's confirmed. No OVA or anything like that.

Proof please?