Character Discussion - Lelouch

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by snowdevil_crow

I thought Nunnally's plan was almost exactly the same thing as Lelouch's, except that hers was to focus the hatred of the world on a machine instead of a person...?

Yep. And I just I don't see how that makes her all that heroic, especially if Lelouch's plan automatically makes him a villain.

And she didn't want any of Lelouch's original conquest of Zero. She would have been fine living out her days with him if it weren't for the revolution that he was already starting --- so by the end of R2, yeah, she would have preferred to just live with him in peace, but it was too late by that because he'd already started this campaign and done a bunch of stuff... so... she wanted to fix it with her little plan.

*nods*

[Sol Falling]

Okay, seriously, let's stop the Suzaku bashing in the Lelouch thread. Suzaku was always waaay less deluded than Lelouch was, because his goal actually existed; Lelouch's phantom revenge against an evil, plotting system who killed his kind, beautiful mother because it envied her was never more than a fantasy.

As for why Lelouch was sympathetic, lol no it wasn't because of Nunally. Hell, most of season 1 people called Nunally a waste of a character who served no purpose except as a plot device for Lelouch's motivation. What made Lelouch sympathetic was the fact that he was fighting against the *waves hands around* eeeeevvviiiiilll Britannian Empire. Despite the fact that he was shown to be doing so to pursue a (mistaken) personal agenda, the audience demonstrated a true 'ends justify means' mentality by simply going 'lol Britannia is evil anyway'.

Anyway, Nogitsune, if we go by your philosophical 'there's no such thing as good and evil' schtick then how can you say that 'heroes' or 'villains' exist at all? As far as I can see, the thing you're basing your classifications of hero/villain on is whether or not you think you're 'supposed' to like a character (i.e. authoral intent). Frankly, I don't think that's any more absolute than blade's labels by metanarrative categorization.

Anyway, blade, I disagree with you too, if on a different level. Personally, I think Lelouch was doing shitty things with shitty motives right up until Turn 22. If that's a good enough definition of villain (it fits mine, vaguely), then yeah, I wouldn't say he stopped at Turn 7.

[Zetsubou Bunny]

Snowdevil, you just reinforced my point with an argument against it. o_O

I'm pretty sure we're mostly talking about Lelouch, not Suzaku..?

Like I said earlier, Lelouch was a villain right up until he decided to ctrl+alt+delete.

And even then his not being a villain is debatable.

[snowdevil_crow]

Oh... wait... I think I missed something.


... in this show there are no villains. Or, I guess, everyone's a villain. This isn't the kind of show you can do the "good or bad guy?" thing with because they're all bad guys and all do stupid things right until the end. When Lelouch decided to finally acknowledge that Nunnally was just an excuse, it was a big moment of character development, but it didn't suddenly make him 'a good guy' because what he turned around and did right after was just as bad (or worse) as what he did before --- the only difference was that he was saying "I am doing this to create the world I want", not "I am doing this to create the world Nunnally would want". :/

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Okay, seriously, let's stop the Suzaku bashing in the Lelouch thread. Suzaku was always waaay less deluded than Lelouch was, because his goal actually existed; Lelouch's phantom revenge against an evil, plotting system who killed his kind, beautiful mother because it envied her was never more than a fantasy.

Suzaku bashing?
As far as I know, the only one who said something against Suzaku here recently was me, and I happen to fangirl him. I was just trying to make a point, because his goal wasn't more realistic than the conclusions Lelouch jumped to. I mean, changing Britannia from the inside, as an Eleven?

As for why Lelouch was sympathetic, lol no it wasn't because of Nunally. Hell, most of season 1 people called Nunally a waste of a character who served no purpose except as a plot device for Lelouch's motivation. What made Lelouch sympathetic was the fact that he was fighting against the *waves hands around* eeeeevvviiiiilll Britannian Empire. Despite the fact that he was shown to be doing so to pursue a (mistaken) personal agenda, the audience demonstrated a true 'ends justify means' mentality by simply going 'lol Britannia is evil anyway'.

This point is valid because I think blade did indeed mean likeable, but sympathetic is something else, if I'm not completely mistaken here. And Lelouch might just be only sympathetic of Nunally - that means, still giving a damn about human lives.

Anyway, Nogitsune, if we go by your philosophical 'there's no such thing as good and evil' schtick then how can you say that 'heroes' or 'villains' exist at all? As far as I can see, the thing you're basing your classifications of hero/villain on is whether or not you think you're 'supposed' to like a character (i.e. authoral intent). Frankly, I don't think that's any more absolute than blade's labels by metanarrative categorization.

What? Where did I say that heroes and villains exist?
I was saying it depends on the definition. If a villain is someone who oppeses the main character, like an antagonist (and more than one dictionary said that), then Suzaku is one.
If a villain is simply someone guilty of "great crimes", then both Lelouch and Suzaku are villains.
But I'm pretty sure I never said either of them was good/evil/a hero in my book.

Oh, and I'm struggling with the "evil" thingy at the moment. Mark Rowlands made a good point about evil - that it's banal, and everywhere in society. That every person commits many evil acts in their life by default.
Actually, I'm still reluctant to use the term, but this kind of "evil" is exactly the reason it doesn't exist for me. Because when someone says "evil", they usually mean something totally off the scale, not an undeniable part of human nature.
...But oh, well this is somethign entirely else, and clearly philosophy. xD


*agrees with snow*

[bladeofdarkness]

@Lord Crow
what nunnaly was doing was not "planing something like that"
shnizel was the one with the nukem plan
what nunnaly said to lelouch was mearly HER INTERPRETAION of shnizel's plan
shnizel thought of it as a deterance that would keep people from fighting because of fear
nunnaly thought of it as a focus point for hate that would keep people from fighting by giving them someone else to hate
but she wasnt the one who created it, its just her views on it.

@Sol
while lelouch kept doing shitty things
ep 7 it was the first time when he started thinking outside the "its all about nunnaly" box
which is a step up
turn 22 has him getting a arguably better motive (arguable, because its still mostly based on his own pride) but commits even shittier actions
he never gets a point where he has noble goals AND actions
which is why i consider him a villain more then a hero

i do agree with you that he was in large part sympathetic because they made britannia almost cartoonishly evil at times
but that does not a hero make
what it does make him is the lesser of two evils

@Nogitsune
you can argue about several different definitions about the word villain
but the concept of "villain and antagonist meaning the same thing" died the moment that the term "villain protagonist" was created

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

nunnaly thought of it as a focus point for hate that would keep people from fighting by giving them someone else to hate
but she wasnt the one who created it, its just her views on it.

Before, you said Kallen and Nunally were "hero" types of characters at that point, opposing an evil tyrant.
Does that mean Nunally is heroic simply because she didn't plan the whole thing herself and "just went along" with what Schneizel presented to her?
I mean, how many people would Damocles have had to kill before the world truly hated it? How is that so much more heroic than Lelouch's plan?

@Nogitsune
you can argue about several different definitions about the word villain
but the concept of "villain and antagonist meaning the same thing" died the moment that the term "villain protagonist" was created

This whole discussion started because I basically said "I can only agree if we go with one of the following definitions...". The antagonist one was one of those I found and excluded. I just mentioned it.
Just because the meaning of a word begins to change doesn't mean the old meaning is automatically incorrect. In this case, it can apparently still be found in dictionaries, and is certainly accepted by many people.
But anyway, since I believe Lelouch isn't a protagonistic villain, it's somewhat of a moot point here.

Edit:
And could someone please tell me I'm not wrong about the meaning of sympathetic? q.q
Because I checked the dictionary, and I didn't find anything other than the meaning I went with so far, but people keep using it as "likeable", not only in this thread, and now I'm not so sure anymore. Especially since there's a similar word in German that does mean likeable. xD

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

Suzaku bashing?
As far as I know, the only one who said something against Suzaku here recently was me, and I happen to fangirl him. I was just trying to make a point, because his goal wasn't more realistic than the conclusions Lelouch jumped to. I mean, changing Britannia from the inside, as an Eleven?

Yeah, I was basically referring to this. I realize you 'fangirl' Suzaku in the manner of liking him or forgiving him or understanding him, but you are still doing him a discredit by claiming that his goals/ideals were wholly unrealistic, comparing them even to the blatant misconceptions Lelouch held about what he was getting revenge for.

That the SAZ would've succeeded without Lelouch's interference is evidence enough that Suzaku's ideals had at least minimal grounding in reality, while Lelouch's vendetta against his father and half-siblings was completely misguided.

This point is valid because I think blade did indeed mean likeable, but sympathetic is something else, if I'm not completely mistaken here. And Lelouch might just be only sympathetic of Nunally - that means, still giving a damn about human lives.

Umm, not that I've checked any dictionaries or anything, but as a native English speaker, yeah, 'sympathetic' with regards to fictional characters usually refers to characters that you can sympathize with. If you're talking about what demonstrates that Lelouch possesses sympathy for others, there's a whole bunch of shit aside from Nunally. Merely feeling for others doesn't actually absolve anything though, in my opinion.


On the whole villain/hero thing. Ah. I now realize that the aim of this discussion is to somehow prove (or disprove, as it were) that Lelouch is more villainous than Suzaku; or to bring it into sharper contrast, that Suzaku is more heroic than Lelouch?

This I'd say is basically true. Although frankly, hero/villain status don't automatically have a connection to like/dislike for me.

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Yeah, I was basically referring to this. I realize you 'fangirl' Suzaku in the manner of liking him or forgiving him or understanding him, but you are still doing him a discredit by claiming that his goals/ideals were wholly unrealistic, comparing them even to the blatant misconceptions Lelouch held about what he was getting revenge for.

Actually, I don't see how I'm discrediting Suzaku (and as far as I know, bashing is something else, anyway). In my eyes, he was simply not much better than Lelouch even during season 1, fooling himself to the point where he would look at the Shinjuku massacre and not even consider that something was wrong with his views. He could have easily been given the same order.

That the SAZ would've succeeded without Lelouch's interference is evidence enough that Suzaku's ideals had at least minimal grounding in reality, while Lelouch's vendetta against his father and half-siblings was completely misguided.

Suzaku couldn't have known that Euphie would come along, or even that he would pilot the Lancelot.
Both he and Lelouch were living in their own little fantasy world. It's just that by pure chance, Suzaku's came closer to becoming real as time went on, whereas Lelouch, who had a reason for wanting revenge, would have needed to overcome certain issues before the same could be said for him. And overcoming issues is something neither of those boys is good at.
But I can't help but feel this is a very subjective matter. To me, Suzaku was as wrong as Lelouch was - the other extreme. He'd have watched innocents die and went along with those killing them any time just because he thought he would be able to free the people of one single country, despite countless evidence against that.

Umm, not that I've checked any dictionaries or anything, but as a native English speaker, yeah, 'sympathetic' with regards to fictional characters usually refers to characters that you can sympathize with. If you're talking about what demonstrates that Lelouch possesses sympathy for others, there's a whole bunch of shit aside from Nunally. Merely feeling for others doesn't actually absolve anything though, in my opinion.

O_O
I didn't know about the former. I'll burn the dictionary now. xD
Thanks!

On the whole villain/hero thing. Ah. I now realize that the aim of this discussion is to somehow prove (or disprove, as it were) that Lelouch is more villainous than Suzaku; or to bring it into sharper contrast, that Suzaku is more heroic than Lelouch?

This I'd say is basically true. Although frankly, hero/villain status don't automatically have a connection to like/dislike for me.

Well, it was more about if Lelouch is a villain or not, and if there were heroes to oppose him, and... actually, it was about everything. xD
Still, I agree with snow - either everyone in Code Geass is a vaillain or no one (well, some exceptions, but... you get the idea).

[bladeofdarkness]

incidently
i just forgot to mention this before
i stated that most of the time britannia was depicted as almost cartoonishly evil which made lelouch sympathetic despite his actions

but i just noticed how lelouch himself is depicted in the last arc
in terms of imagery, i dont think they could have made it clearer that he's suppose to be a villain if they gave him spiked armor.

the final arc starts (litteraly, its the first thing you see lelouch do on screen) with lelouch geassing over a 1000 people (70X15 rows) into becoming his "slaves"
followed by all of them having face concealing masks covering their faces (faceless mooks are a staple of evil overlords everywhere)
and then all stand at attention, and declare "all hail lelouch" while giving what looks disturbingly like a hitler salute (i'm not kidding, look at the scene, its fucked up)

and that pretty much sets the tone for the entire arc
Lloyd and cecile even lampshade this in their talk right after the OP song
Lloyd asks cecile "are you alright with that ?" and she asks him in return "was that alright ?"

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

incidently
i just forgot to mention this before
i stated that most of the time britannia was depicted as almost cartoonishly evil which made lelouch sympathetic despite his actions

I think most people would feel for him even if that hadn't been the case, as long as the Emperor was still a bastard who'd kicked the Lulu puppy.
Let's take Sasuke from Naruto, for example. Now he's clearly on the wrong side of the fence, but people love and pity him anyway. I won't even start about Itachi.

but i just noticed how lelouch himself is depicted in the last arc
in terms of imagery, i dont think they could have made it clearer that he's suppose to be a villain if they gave him spiked armor.

Lelouch is just what he always was there - neither good nor evil, but far from being "moral". Yes, he commited more terrible acts there than ever before, but if he's a villain during the last arc, then he's also a hero, seeing how he achieved world peace and all.
You can see it any way you want. This is strictly a matter of personal opinion, as well as philosophy. The only thing that's not is that his intentions were cute enough, and that he was very far from being a saint regardless.

[bladeofdarkness]

can you honestly tell me that the scene i named isnt fucked up in terms of how lelouch looks in it
luciano bradly had a less horrible introduction, and he's probably the single worst monster in the show
especially since he does this completely emotion free (almost with an amusement)

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

can you honestly tell me that the scene i named isnt fucked up in terms of how lelouch looks in it
especially since he does this completely emotion free (almost with an amusement)

Yep, but that still doesn't change the fact that it was all part of something bigger.
Can you honsestly tell me world peace is not a typical "hero" achievement, and that he didn't seem like one in the last episode?
It's one more thing that clearly distinguishes him from Light, our pet villain protagonist.

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

Yep, but that still doesn't change the fact that it was all part of something bigger.
Can you honsestly tell me world peace is not a typical "hero" achievement, and that he didn't seem like one in the last episode?
It's one more thing that clearly distinguishes him from Light, our pet villain protagonist.

world peace is also a typical "well intentioned extremist" achievement
didnt make charles or shnizel look heroic

lelouch didnt promote peace through understanding or something like that (as is par the course in mecha anime)
he promoted it using hate and deception, as is par the course for well intentioned exremist villains (suzaku is a living symbol of that deception)
other then the fact that he is prepared to DIE for it, it doesnt make him a hero

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

world peace is also a typical "well intentioned extremist" achievement
didnt make charles or shnizel look heroic

The thing is, they didn't achieve world peace.
It's a typical well intentioned extremist goal. That doesn't mean they usually reach it.

lelouch didnt promote peace through understanding or something like that (as is par the course in mecha anime)
he promoted it using hate and deception, as is par the course in sunrise mecha anime villains (suzaku is a living symbol of that deception)
other then the fact that he is prepared to DIE for it, it doesnt make him a hero

True, certainly no more than it makes him a villain.

[bladeofdarkness]

yes it does make him a villain
thats what a well intentioned extremist IS
same goes for a magnificent bastard (which he also is)

using horrible means to produce a noble goal is the marker of a well intentioned extremist

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

yes it does make him a villain
thats what a well intentioned extremist IS

I didn't say Lelouch was a well-intentioned extremist there.
And even if he was, he'd be an anti villain well-intentioned extremist.
My opinion still stands. It's a matter of what you view as a "villain", and purely semantics.

[bladeofdarkness]

is there any possible definition better suited to lelouch then a "well intentioned extremist" ?
and a WIE is an anti villain by default

P.S
lelouch is an WIE in intent
he is a complete monster in terms of actions

edit:
i admit
one good definiton is "Necessarily Evil"
but even THATS a villain

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

is there any possible definition better suited to lelouch then a "well intentioned extremist" ?
and a WIE is an anti villain by default

Anti villain, villain, ... this is really purely semantics.
Let's go back to the "he's far from being Euphie" thing where we already agree.

P.S
lelouch is an WIE in intent
he is a complete monster in terms of actions

I don't like the term "monster" much for the same reason I don't like to use the word "evil", only even more so.
Let's just stop here. We already agree that Lelouch wasn't Mister Fluffy.


Edit:

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

edit:
i admit
one good definiton is "Necessarily Evil"
but even THATS a villain

Anti villain! xD
And yes, I agree, but it's also the TV tropes definition of an "(anti) villain", not an universal one.
... Semantics. Let's just stop. xD

[bladeofdarkness]

you keep using phrases like "not euphie" or "not mister fluffy"
and it belittles what he actually does to the point where it cant do it justice
lelouch is not "rude"
he isnt "a jerk"
he's a MASS MURDERER
and thats putting it mildly

at the very least, dont belittle that fact