Character Discussion - Lelouch

[Charred Knight]

His still becoming hated for no apparent reason. How the hell would he get the common people to hate him? Just start kidnapping random people?

If Lelouch starts executing people who oppose him, the Britannians would simply see that as a necessary move to consolidate power.

The reason Hitler became the most hated man in the world was because he killed 8 million jewish people not because America ran some negative propaganda about the man.

Hell look at Stalin, the dude killed AT LEAST 700,000 people and his considered the third greatest Russian of all times by a recent poll. A third of Russia would vote for him.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalin#...port_in_Russia

[morbosfist]

As TVTropes might say, Villain with Good Publicity. In any case, you're getting your facts twisted up. Old Britannia, with its system of nobility, supported that. New Britannia, sans nobles, was really fucking pissed about it (or at least the nobles were at first). Then he took over the world and even the happy commoners no longer liked the guy.

You need to stop with the Nazi references already. It's getting old, and has little to nothing to do with Lelouch. Hitler was hated because of that reason, yes, but we do not see Lelouch committing atrocities anywhere near that bad, nor apart from the vague references of dead families is there even an indication of that many deaths. The world probably rolled over for him. He can have bad publicity without being a mass-murdering psychopath, and propaganda is immensely helpful in carrying that image (not to invoke Godwin myself, but why do you think Hitler had any support at all despite being such a psychopath? Propaganda, that's how).

[bladeofdarkness]

one legitimate possibility is that anyone who spoke out against him during that two months was dragged out of their home and thrown in jail without trail to be executed but since he was killed before he even had time to execute the black knights, none of the other people were killed either
basiclly showing INTENT without actually have to do it

before taking over the damocles lelouch had to establish his rule by force
but once he had the damocles no organized force on earth would possibly try and raise against him
only small groups of individuals (kinda like cornellia's group) could try something like that
i doubt lelouch would consider people who were willing to oppose tyrany in the face of absolute hopelessness as deserving to be executed

but before he took over the damocles he killed off any who opposed him
the nobles opposed him because he took their rights away
not out of a racism (even C.C pointed out that its natural)
so there was no possible way for all of them to have been the kind of ass holes who beat civilians in the streets with a cane
how many milly's did he kill

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

but before he took over the damocles he killed off any who opposed him
the nobles opposed him because he took their rights away
not out of a racism (even C.C pointed out that its natural)
so there was no possible way for all of them to have been the kind of ass holes who beat civilians in the streets with a cane
how many milly's did he kill

Some nobles would have commanded some sort of loyalty from troops of equal stature (Knightmare pilots are nobles, after all, a great deal were probably pissed). Also, just to point out the obvious, the kind of assholes who were beating people in the street are the people who would expressly resist losing their nobility. Milly-type nobles doing the same would be rare, and if they're violently resistant to the notion, as those whom Lelouch had hunted down and killed were (it's not like he was killing people just because they were unhappy, it's because they were causing trouble), then they couldn't have been all that good in the first place.

[bladeofdarkness]

milly's family was too weak to do anything about it (hence the arranged marrige with Lloyd)
whos to say that they wouldnt have acted otherwise if they had the ability to
and again, raising up against someone who took power a few days ago (by murdering the old emperor) and then just took away rights your family has held for hundreds of years, is not something only rotten people would do
anyone would object to having something taken from them, and those who can would fight against it

how would you respond if someone walked into your house, declared himself king, and decided to take away your computer because he is king and can do that

[morbosfist]

We're not talking about something tangible here, we're talking about a status symbol. Nobles aren't losing much of anything besides that status, yet they rebelled and got killed for it. It would be more accurate to say that, rather than take away rights, Lelouch gave the same to everyone, hence negating what made them special. That's what set them off.

To the last part, one would be pissed no doubt, but armed rebellion is a big step and unless he was just doing it to be a dick I would at least consider his reasoning first.

[bladeofdarkness]

the "everyone is equal" argument would have worked in a democracy
which britannia isnt
status has been shown to be VERY importent in britannia, so robbing people of it would enlist that kind of reaction

the commoners have no power
the nobles have SOME power
and the royals have absolute power (as far as the show indicates)
removing the nobles just makes the emperor supreme while everyone else has no power at all
there is a reason why the magna carta is considered the foundation stone for civil rights
imagine if someone just decided that you no longer have the right to vote for example

and its not like he gave anyone his reasons
he just said "from now on, you have no status or power at all. deal with it"
and he did this after usurping the throne

[Charred Knight]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

As TVTropes might say, Villain with Good Publicity. In any case, you're getting your facts twisted up. Old Britannia, with its system of nobility, supported that. New Britannia, sans nobles, was really fucking pissed about it (or at least the nobles were at first). Then he took over the world and even the happy commoners no longer liked the guy.

You need to stop with the Nazi references already. It's getting old, and has little to nothing to do with Lelouch. Hitler was hated because of that reason, yes, but we do not see Lelouch committing atrocities anywhere near that bad, nor apart from the vague references of dead families is there even an indication of that many deaths. The world probably rolled over for him. He can have bad publicity without being a mass-murdering psychopath, and propaganda is immensely helpful in carrying that image (not to invoke Godwin myself, but why do you think Hitler had any support at all despite being such a psychopath? Propaganda, that's how).

Here's the thing

There's a reason why Taniguchi or Okouchi have never revealed what Lelouch did to make him so hated.

If he basically does minor things, that wouldn't even match Stalin, a lot of people are going to say that Lelouch didn't do enough to be hated. I am on this boat. Imprison people? My god, man that wouldn't receive the requisite hatred from anyone.

If Lelouch goes on a killing spree and starts killing people in mass, people like you will complain.

I just can't see Lelouch basically getting a ton of hate for things when his father did worse. His described as the "world's greatest evil" not just a cruel tyrant like his father was.

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

the "everyone is equal" argument would have worked in a democracy
which britannia isnt
status has been shown to be VERY importent in britannia, so robbing people of it would enlist that kind of reaction

the commoners have no power
the nobles have SOME power
and the royals have absolute power (as far as the show indicates)
removing the nobles just makes the emperor supreme while everyone else has no power at all
there is a reason why the magna carta is considered the foundation stone for civil rights
imagine if someone just decided that you no longer have the right to vote for example

and its not like he gave anyone his reasons
he just said "from now on, you have no status or power at all. deal with it"
and he did this after usurping the throne

Yet, on the surface at least, he was doing things that were popular. Everyone who got those rights they never had, and even people outside the country, absolutely loved him for it. The nobles were a distinct minority, at least the way the media portrayed it (propaganda would help here). Status was important in the old Britannia, and people were not all that happy with it, except those who had it. New Britannia changed that, and the nobles were no longer happy. Considering the royals rolled with the punches, there's no real excuse for following the old system, they just didn't want things to change.

Originally Posted by Charred Knight

Here's the thing

There's a reason why Taniguchi or Okouchi have never revealed what Lelouch did to make him so hated.

If he basically does minor things, that wouldn't even match Stalin, a lot of people are going to say that Lelouch didn't do enough to be hated. I am on this boat. Imprison people? My god, man that wouldn't receive the requisite hatred from anyone.

If Lelouch goes on a killing spree and starts killing people in mass, people like you will complain.

I just can't see Lelouch basically getting a ton of hate for things when his father did worse. His described as the "world's greatest evil" not just a cruel tyrant like his father was.

Charles had a great benefits package for the home team, so to speak. Everyone was oppressed under Lelouch, and this is the entire freaking world so that's 6 billion pissed off inhabitants. They're quite likely to villify him.

[Charred Knight]

Charles was great IF you where a noble, but the people's reactions to Lelouch's reforms tells me that Charles wasn't as popular as you think.

Also as I already stated Lelouch was described as the greatest evil, not a tyrant. Charles was opressive, Charles was a tyrant, if Lelouch matched Charles for two months you think people would care? I don't. They sure wouldn't be calling Lelouch the world's greatest evil.

The amount of hate Lelouch was getting wasn't a world opressed, it was how people see Hitler now.

[bladeofdarkness]

Charred has a point
they ended up calling him "the demon emperor"
i kinda figure he would have had to have done some pretty nasty things to earn such a moniker

[Neku]

Originally Posted by Charred Knight

If Lelouch sacrificed only himself? Yes, his a hero

But he sacrificed untold amounts of people going from at least 10,000 to more likely in the millions.

I do not remember this part in Code Geass.
Mind pointing the scene out?

Also the reason he sacrificed himself was less because it had to be done (most if not all the deaths from Zero Requiem could have been averted through diplomacy), but to soothe his own guilty consience.

There are many ways to sooth one's guilty conscience.
Sacrificing oneself is not the only way, and yet he chose to do so.

Also, how exactly do you intend to unify the entire world through diplomacy alone?

He didn't sacrifice himself he commited the world's largest murder suicide.

But he did.

Either way, it doesn't matter how you and I see Lelouch; as a hero, as a villain, or whatever anyone sees him as. They are all perspectives. But one thing for sure is that by the ending, Zero was seen as everyone's hero. Who is Zero? Lelouch, and on the last episode, Suzaku. But who created Zero, the hero in everyone's hearts? Lelouch.

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by Neku

I do not remember this part in Code Geass.
Mind pointing the scene out?.

its actually on a number of scenes
start from on ep 22 and go from there

There are many ways to sooth one's guilty conscience.
Sacrificing oneself is not the only way, and yet he chose to do so.

he also chose to sacrifice countless other lives BEFORE killing himself
that part is less wholesome

Also, how exactly do you intend to unify the entire world through diplomacy alone?

he didnt unify the world
he made the world more peaceful by ending the war and making people focus their hate on him so that once he died no one felt like continuing the war
the world is still divided into individual countries

Either way, it doesn't matter how you and I see Lelouch; as a hero, as a villain, or whatever anyone sees him as. They are all perspectives. But one thing for sure is that by the ending, Zero was seen as everyone's hero. Who is Zero? Lelouch, and on the last episode, Suzaku. But who created Zero, the hero in everyone's hearts? Lelouch.

no one (other then those who know the truth) considers lelouch a hero
to the rest of the world he is like hitlerX12
and suzaku, as zero is SEEN as a hero
key word being SEEN
not IS
if anyone ever learns the truth he's a dead man

let me ask
if two people work together
one pushes a kid into a river, and the other jumps in to save him in order to be viewed as a "hero" for it
would the savior be seen as a hero ? - yes
would he actually BE a hero ? - far from it

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

let me ask
if two people work together
one pushes a kid into a river, and the other jumps in to save him in order to be viewed as a "hero" for it
would the savior be seen as a hero ? - yes
would he actually BE a hero ? - far from it

Whether he is a hero or not depends on why they pushed the kid into the river in the first place.
We all know Lelouch and Suzaku didn't do it for the lulz.
This metaphor just isn't going to work. xD

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

Whether he is a hero or not depends on why they pushed the kid into the river in the first place.
We all know Lelouch and Suzaku didn't do it for the lulz.
This metaphor just isn't going to work. xD

the metaphor is fine when you remember that they could have just become life guards instead
plenty of chances to save lives that way

[Neku]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

its actually on a number of scenes
start from on ep 22 and go from there

he also chose to sacrifice countless other lives BEFORE killing himself
that part is less wholesome

The beginning of Zero Requiem.
I fret at the fact that you're telling me he's sacrificing tons of people and gave me something as general as that because I really wouldn't want to rewatch 4 episodes again for the sake of an argument of perspectives.

So, you can either tell me a more specific scene(s) where he has sacrificed lives and I shall agree (or, disagree) with you or we can just put this away, because I stand by the statement "I would label a person who has sacrificed himself for people to have a better future a hero".

His past?
I'm afraid I don't care about that as much as you do.
As much as I'm concerned, I labelled Lelouch's action of self-sacrifice a heroic one but I more specifically called him God.

he didnt unify the world
he made the world more peaceful by ending the war and making people focus their hate on him so that once he died no one felt like continuing the war
the world is still divided into individual countries

no one (other then those who know the truth) considers lelouch a hero

So you do agree that there are people who consider Lelouch a hero.

to the rest of the world he is like hitlerX12

Therefore?
My paragraph says Zero is a hero, and that Lelouch created the hero.

and suzaku, as zero is SEEN as a hero
key word being SEEN
not IS

Now I don't get you.
Superheroes are seen as heroes, because they are heroes.

So if Zero is seen as a hero, which part of Zero is not a hero?

if anyone ever learns the truth he's a dead man

No. If someone ever learns the truth, he will be commemorated.
Like you said, other than the ones who know the truth, Lelouch is considered a tyrant.

let me ask
if two people work together
one pushes a kid into a river, and the other jumps in to save him in order to be viewed as a "hero" for it
would the savior be seen as a hero ? - yes
would he actually BE a hero ? - far from it

Your analogy is merely implying that Suzaku is far from being a hero, assuming you are applying it to Lelouch's Zero Requiem.

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by Neku

The beginning of Zero Requiem.
I fret at the fact that you're telling me he's sacrificing tons of people and gave me something as general as that because I really wouldn't want to rewatch 4 episodes again for the sake of an argument of perspectives.

So, you can either tell me a more specific scene(s) where he has sacrificed lives and I shall agree (or, disagree) with you or we can just put this away, because I stand by the statement "I would label a person who has sacrificed himself for people to have a better future a hero".

His past?
I'm afraid I don't care about that as much as you do.
As much as I'm concerned, I labelled Lelouch's action of self-sacrifice a heroic one but I more specifically called him God.

lelouch STARTS the story arc by turning over a thousend people into slaves using his geass
then jeremia walks in and tells him he has come back from killing yet ANOTHER of the many nobles who are raising up against him
then lelouch and suzaku talk about how lelouch would spill RIVERS OF BLOOD from now on to make people forget euphie
then comes the final battle, in which lelouch's main strategy involves sacrificing his own soldiers by the thousends, first by luring the black knights over mount fuji (by having them tear his front lines to shrads) and blowing it up (killing all his ground forces in the process)
then using his troops in a strategy that is basiclly summed up with "go run at the enemy and get killed until he runs out of ammo"
and in the final ep its commented that he kills anyone who speaks the wrong way against him (and their entire family with them)

he didnt UNIFY the world
he CONQUERED IT
ALL OF IT
and once he died, all the countries went back to being independent countries
thats why ougi is the prime minister of japan, and is meeting nunnaly (empress of britannia) in the epilogue

So you do agree that there are people who consider Lelouch a hero.

a small handful
namely those who know the truth behind the plan
and it helps that those people love lelouch to death, and would rather see the good in what he did rather then the bad
the average person on the street would not see it that way

Now I don't get you.
Superheroes are seen as heroes, because they are heroes.

So if Zero is seen as a hero, which part of Zero is not a hero?

the part where he is considered a hero for saving the world of a tyrant who HE PUT IN POWER IN THE FIRST PLACE
he didnt do anything heroic
he FOOLED PEOPLE into thinking that he did

No. If someone ever learns the truth, he will be commemorated.
Like you said, other than the ones who know the truth, Lelouch is considered a tyrant.

and suzaku is his co-conspirator
if people learn the truth, they would kill suzaku for fooling them into treating him like a hero when he is in fact as much a war criminal as lelouch was

Your analogy is merely implying that Suzaku is far from being a hero, assuming you are applying it to Lelouch's Zero Requiem.

lelouch's Z-R is one of three different xanatos gambits initiated by the show's villains in the pursuit of a better world
charles had his Ragnarök connection
shnizel had his damocles
lelouch had his Z-R
all three decided that they dont like the way that the world is and decided to change it
all three decided that THEY KNOW BEST whats good for the world, and their opinion is the only one that matters
and all three master plans were made for the purpose of bringing about a better more peaceful world
lelouch won in the end, and so you see the result of HIS plan
that doesnt make him a hero, it makes him the villian who WON

if you treat lelouch's Z-R as a good thing because of its INTENTION (and in doing so, discounting the horrible things he did in the pursuit of it)
then you must afford the same measure of kindness to the other two (as they were both ment to do the same thing)
because lelouch is NOT a god, and does NOT know better then them whats best for the world

[Bonzo]

The only way Lelouch had for to be a hero, was to tell the truth to his black knight officers, BEFORE to make the big errors, then the china crisis was the last occasion for it.

In that case all the plot could to be very different, but just in that case.

[Neku]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

lelouch STARTS the story arc by turning over a thousend people into slaves using his geass
then jeremia walks in and tells him he has come back from killing yet ANOTHER of the many nobles who are raising up against him
then lelouch and suzaku talk about how lelouch would spill RIVERS OF BLOOD from now on to make people forget euphie

There. Thanks
I can label that action as a heroic one again although it would lean more to his idea of compensating for his guilt. He sacrificed not only his life, but any opportunity to leave himself a good name in history just to cover up for Euphemia's accidental massacre.

then comes the final battle, in which lelouch's main strategy involves sacrificing his own soldiers by the thousends, first by luring the black knights over mount fuji (by having them tear his front lines to shrads) and blowing it up (killing all his ground forces in the process)
then using his troops in a strategy that is basiclly summed up with "go run at the enemy and get killed until he runs out of ammo"

and in the final ep its commented that he kills anyone who speaks the wrong way against him (and their entire family with them)

To pretend to be a tyrant and inflict hatred on him by all, that would be necessary.

he didnt UNIFY the world
he CONQUERED IT
ALL OF IT

Technically, conquering the world into one, and unifying the world into one are the same thing. The only difference is how you do it; just like in the anime, he coerced the world to fall under his command and the reporter stated that he unified it.

and once he died, all the countries went back to being independent countries
thats why ougi is the prime minister of japan, and is meeting nunnaly (empress of britannia) in the epilogue

True. But like you said, this all happened after his death.

a small handful
namely those who know the truth behind the plan
and it helps that those people love lelouch to death, and would rather see the good in what he did rather then the bad
the average person on the street would not see it that way

The truth behind the plan would label him a hero.
Therefore since the truth of his assassination was supposed to be a secret, of course an average person on the street would never see him as a hero.

the part where he is considered a hero for saving the world of a tyrant who HE PUT IN POWER IN THE FIRST PLACE

Which tyrant are you talking about?

he didnt do anything heroic
he FOOLED PEOPLE into thinking that he did

So you're saying that towards the end of the anime, Kallen was fooled into thinking that he did a heroic deed?

and suzaku is his co-conspirator
if people learn the truth, they would kill suzaku for fooling them into treating him like a hero when he is in fact as much a war criminal as lelouch was

Unfortunately, no one was shown to have learnt the truth.

lelouch's Z-R is one of three different xanatos gambits initiated by the show's villains in the pursuit of a better world
charles had his Ragnarök connection
shnizel had his damocles
lelouch had his Z-R
all three decided that they dont like the way that the world is and decided to change it
all three decided that THEY KNOW BEST whats good for the world, and their opinion is the only one that matters
and all three master plans were made for the purpose of bringing about a better more peaceful world
lelouch won in the end, and so you see the result of HIS plan
that doesnt make him a hero, it makes him the villian who WON

So you're saying someone who died so that the world can be a better place is a villain?

...Okay.

if you treat lelouch's Z-R as a good thing because of its INTENTION (and in doing so, discounting the horrible things he did in the pursuit of it)

Did I?

then you must afford the same measure of kindness to the other two (as they were both ment to do the same thing)

I believe neither Charles nor Schneizel would self-sacrifice for world peace (maybe Schneizel will though. But just maybe).

because lelouch is NOT a god, and does NOT know better then them whats best for the world

Whether or not Lelouch is a God is a perspective.

I think he is. You have problem?

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by Neku

There. Thanks
I can label that action as a heroic one again although it would lean more to his idea of compensating for his guilt. He sacrificed not only his life, but any opportunity to leave himself a good name in history just to cover up for Euphemia's accidental massacre.

so you missed the whole "spilling rivers of (OTHER PEOPLE'S) blood" thing
then i guess its pointless to argue with you
you treat lelouch as if he is a god who has no need to conform to the same morals as humans do
you refuse to see anything that lelouch actually does in any other light and hold him as being above judgement
which is why you view him murdering who knows how many people as unimportant. but his desire to make people FORGET about euhpie's massacre as heroic.

even Nogitsune with her deeply philosophical views about the nature of morality doesnt go that far