(L) Now and Then, Here and There... (Ima, Soko ni Iru Boku)

[Ambience Blue]

I started this series and it's immensely disturbing, though powerful. The box just looked like another lighthearted shounen, but inside it, it was pretty insane. Anyone else agree that this is the most f*cked up anime? I had to stop watching once I figured out what was happening to Sara (Sala)... Need to take a break before I launch back into it... Is this the work of a genius or a madman? Any thoughts?

[TronDD]

2nd most disturbing series for me (after Narutaru). I love it. A great display of what humans can do to each other. What makes it so impactful is that people like Hamdo really exist.

Sara's...predicament...really hit me, too.

Spoiler for Sara spoiler:

I kept saying to myself. "That didn't just happen, they didn't rape her. I didn't see it, so that's not what happened." I aws seriously rocking my self in the fetal position. Then they do it to her a few more times Then it gets worse.

The show made me feel ashamed to be part of the human race. I will never get over it.

[velmeran]

I just finished watching this series and I was deeply moved by some of the scenes. But I also saw a few problems with the story line that made me want to strangle the writers near the end.

Spoiler for Massive Spoiler Alert:

The biggest problem with this whole show was Abelia and how she followed Hamdo for the entire show. No military commander is going to sit back and take what Hamdo gives her for any amount of time. Some will explain this away as in that she loved Hamdo, but we see that he really doesn't care for her or anyone and I think she should of atleast woken up to this earlier and tried to remove him herself.

I loved this series though because it didn't even attempt to be a happy show, instead it dealt with the horrors of war and what happens when children are involved in it. The whole scene with Boo and Soon's death was an excelent scene, not only does it show the follies of war (children taking revenge for the loss of parents), but it forces our secondary main character to see exactly what is going on, and the things he has lost in himself for him to be able to do that.

Lala Ru's self sacrifice though was kinda expected, I would of been more surprised if she had survived then gone out in one big finale. I loved her character though, because she was the omnipotent being that had seen thousands of years of human bloodshed and really lost hope in us. It was only through Shu showing her that there are good people out there, that she realized she had to help in order to make things right once again.

Sara's character was probably the most tragic of them all because she had no real place in the world. She was just mistaken as Lala Ru and then captured. She had no way of really changing any of the things that happened too her in the first 90% of the story line. What she has control over mostly is whether to have the child or not, and I believe Sis told her what she had to do is she decided to keep it. Lets not forget though that during times of war much of what went on during the show happens in real life. Rounding up the men and boys, raping the women and girls, all are parts of dominating a group of people and turning them into your subjects.

The power of this story line I think is that it could fall into place today, as well as in the past or the future, and still be completely relevent to the human condition.

[dreamless]

I love NTHT, however I hate Shu's stupid optimism. Sala on the other hand ROCKS!!!

Spoiler:

For Abelia... I guess to her Hamdo is somewhat like her son.. it's really some kind of twisted motherly love I guess...

I don't really like how they treat the notion of abortion and make Sala not returning in the end... but that's the dark reality of real life I guess

The only complaint I have against this show is how it antagonizes those rebels. I mean, it seems the show tells us that when we have a cruel maniacal tyrant ruler, we should just bear with it and wait for him to die someday somehow, instead of taking arms to fight him

[Ambience Blue]

I just finished the rest of the story, and it looks like I'm not going to be able to sleep for the rest of the week.

The harsh reality of the series blew me away, and several times throughout, I was muttering, "this is impossible." The more I thought about it though, the more I realized that stuff like that is timeless. It's happened in the past and is happening now. A chilling reminder of our own base humanness.

Spoiler:

For me, it was Sara whom I couldn't bear watch. A short synopsis of her story would be: Shit happens. Even bigger shit happens. It couldn't get worse... never mind, it did. If any character was tortured more than any others, it had to be Sara. Shu, though bearing the brunt of the physical harm, somehow had the unrealistic drive to stay alive. In fact, his naive, childish optimism in the face of Sara's physical and emotional suffering almost made me stop watching sometimes. One thing that added some closure to her story, though, was the one soldier/spy who took pity on her and offered to run away with her. In the last episode, he saves the one boy who has fallen in the water and is swept away. The birthing allusions are strong here, and left no doubt that the father to Sara's child was him.

Also, Velerman, I agree and disagree with you on a couple of counts. I was praying throughout the series that it would be Abelia who would take Hamdo's life in the end, but it never happened. Had it done so, it would have been all the more powerful/relieving. However, I think that omission was intentional. The scriptwriter obviously created the film to depict reality, not drama, and in that way he does justice by not making Abelia change. As we have seen in some of the most horrific historic sins by humankind, men have sat by and executed the diabolical plans of others without question-- whether it be from fear or indoctrination. Lalaru's killing of Hamdo could almost be seen as divine punishment-- retribution for meddling in affairs that men should not.

All in all, it left me staring at the empty screen in front of me for at least two minutes while I tried to comprehend what the hell had happened. I guess I can answer my own question (about the genius and the madman) earlier-- it takes a little bit of both. The genius to see that such folly exists in this world, and the madman to have the courage to say it...

[Fighter Volk]

This is probably my favorite anime series. It never shies away from what it begins to do. As someone said above, it makes you ashamed to be part of the human race. The worst part is that situations just as bad or worse than this one are always happening throughout the world, and we just sit back and ignore it.

I don't know why there's all this optimistic Shu bashing -- I really, really liked him. Without him, I really doubt I could have watched the whole series. It's just so damn harsh...

Spoiler for Abelia:

And on Abelia's case, I think it was indeed purposeful on the scriptwriter's case to simply leave her as she was and not have her change. I think one of the most powerful scenes in the last episodes was when Abelia is watching through the window as Hamdo's corpse is being thrown through the water, and she's just standing there... ohman...

Amazing, amazing stuff.

[TronDD]

Originally Posted by dreamless

The only complaint I have against this show is how it antagonizes those rebels. I mean, it seems the show tells us that when we have a cruel maniacal tyrant ruler, we should just bear with it and wait for him to die someday somehow, instead of taking arms to fight him

Look around. There are many such countries right now. To a lesser extent, even in peaceful countries, there are people unhappy with the way the government does things.
With a violent tyrant, it is far safer to lay low, and not draw attention to yourself. People have a self preservation instict and think "If they aren't after me, I'm not going to do anything that will attract them."

The people in the village Hamdo was looking for showed this "over throw the tyrant"/"Stay hidden and survive" conflict in an interesting way. As you said, those who wanted to fight were shown as the bad guys. They were, of course. But those who didn't want to fight for the right reason were not really good guys, either.

Spoiler for Political comment:

Which brings us to the justification of the war in Iraq. Those people needed Saddam overthrown. He was a horrible dictator and much of what happens in Now and Then, has been done by his regime.

[dreamless]

Originally Posted by TronDD

Spoiler for Political comment:

Which brings us to the justification of the war in Iraq. Those people needed Saddam overthrown. He was a horrible dictator and much of what happens in Now and Then, has been done by his regime.

Spoiler for political whatever:

nah, by NTHT's reasoning, Saddam is going to die someday anyway, so just wait for that day to come. good guys shouldn't kill people, not even Saddam or his army or whoever else. if you try to kill Saddam or his army or anyone, you are a bad guy... at least that's what I feel NTHT is trying to say...

the real world sure has the "over throw the typrant"/"stay hidden and survive" conflicts, but I feel a bit annoyed is how NTHT takes on the issue. It specifically antagonized the "over throw the typrant" idea...

[Suikun]

It's been about two years, now, since I saw this series so I don't remember enough details to comment on anything specifically, but I must say this series blew both me and my Dad (who I finally got to watch it with me) away. This series protrays the good and bad in humans in such a disturbingly realistic way, and I couldn't have chosen a better storyline myself to get such points across. It's a shame, really, that this series has received such little popularity or attention.

[jennwenn]

This series was definitely a difficult watch. If it wasn't for Shu's optimism, I think I would have gone crazy.

Spoiler:

I don't really agree with Sis's "we shouldn't fight" mentality either. Are you crazy? Pacifism can only go so far. You have to get him while you can. You can't just sit there while he keeps killing and torturing people. He could come to your village one day, and as we see, he does. Sis didn't deserve to be treated that way though, the rebels in the village went about it the wrong way too. Overall, it was depressing to see the village tear itself apart before Hamdo even got there.

What did people feel was wrong with the show's treatment of abortion? I thought it was well handled. Sara was obviously in a lot of emotional pain and I could understand that she wished it never happened to her, she wished the baby never existed as a constant reminder that she was raped. In the end, she learned to love it because like Sis said, its not the baby's fault. I don't think the show passes judgement on abortion as overwhelming wrong or right. It attempts to explain both sides of the issue. In the end, I felt it was really Sara's individual decision and not some director telling us "abortion is evil" because its not that simple.

Sara went through the most. I would hate Lalaru's guts too if I were her. To think she went through all that JUST because of one mistake someone made.

What really depressed me about this series is that things like this happen in the real world.

[dreamless]

Originally Posted by jennwenn

This series was definitely a difficult watch. If it wasn't for Shu's optimism, I think I would have gone crazy.

Spoiler:

I don't really agree with Sis's "we shouldn't fight" mentality either. Are you crazy? Pacifism can only go so far. You have to get him while you can. You can't just sit there while he keeps killing and torturing people. He could come to your village one day, and as we see, he does. Sis didn't deserve to be treated that way though, the rebels in the village went about it the wrong way too. Overall, it was depressing to see the village tear itself apart before Hamdo even got there.

What did people feel was wrong with the show's treatment of abortion? I thought it was well handled. Sara was obviously in a lot of emotional pain and I could understand that she wished it never happened to her, she wished the baby never existed as a constant reminder that she was raped. In the end, she learned to love it because like Sis said, its not the baby's fault. I don't think the show passes judgement on abortion as overwhelming wrong or right. It attempts to explain both sides of the issue. In the end, I felt it was really Sara's individual decision and not some director telling us "abortion is evil" because its not that simple.

Sara went through the most. I would hate Lalaru's guts too if I were her. To think she went through all that JUST because of one mistake someone made.

What really depressed me about this series is that things like this happen in the real world.

Spoiler for about abortion:

It implies that if you got raped and get pregnant, you should keep the child. which sounds ridiculous to me. Children are supposed to be result of love. now where's the love?

Spoiler for Shu's optimism:

I hate Shu's optimism, especially when he told Sala all the time "it will become better", when it goes from bad to worse to much worse... that's what I call stupid optimism. Too bad the show seems to encourage this kind of optimism... IMO if you are so optimistic that you decide that you can win against a mecha with a wooden stick, you deserve to die.

[TronDD]

Originally Posted by dreamless

Spoiler for about abortion:

It implies that if you got raped and get pregnant, you should keep the child. which sounds ridiculous to me. Children are supposed to be result of love. now where's the love?

Spoiler for Shu's optimism:

I hate Shu's optimism, especially when he told Sala all the time "it will become better", when it goes from bad to worse to much worse... that's what I call stupid optimism. Too bad the show seems to encourage this kind of optimism... IMO if you are so optimistic that you decide that you can win against a mecha with a wooden stick, you deserve to die.

Abortion:

Spoiler:

Children are the result of sex. Nothing more. I don't think the point of Sara being pregnent was a commentary on abortion. I feel it was more about her comming to terms with what happened to her. She can hate Lalaru, the baby, herself, whatever, but it won't change anything. She had to realize that life sucks sometimes but you press on. Keeping the baby symolizes her acceptance of the events.

Shu:

Spoiler:

Shu's optimizm is pretty absurd. But I think it provides a necessary contrast to the events of the series. Shu always tried his hardest to overcome, and when bad things happened, he'd move on and try hard again. Meanwhile Sara would be filled with hate, anger, and a desire to give up. I think that stark contrast was necessary to further highlight the things going on around Shu.

[dreamless]

hehe kinda off-topic but just think it would be great if they continue the story like this, Sala keeps the child but still hating him all the time, so much so that the child, under constant hatred from his mother, and with the questionable background of his father, grows up to become a Johan-like Monster-kind of serial killer and goes back in time to kill Shu's family and friends one by one... now that would be some good stuff

[TronDD]

Actually, I think it would be neat to see some of Lalaru's past. The events of this show don't even phase her, what the hell else has she seen? What is she exactly? Where/when is she from? etc. We don't even really get any glimpse into her thoughts of what she is seeing, I'd like to have been in her mind through some of the series.

[hunterx]

I just finished this series a couple of days ago, sara definately got the raw end of the deal on the whole anime. It was pretty obvious being a girl on a chick full of horny soldiers what would happen to her. It's a tough series to watch but it makes you think of how much worse the people had it when the germans were invading everyone.

[Ambience Blue]

Originally Posted by TronDD

Actually, I think it would be neat to see some of Lalaru's past. The events of this show don't even phase her, what the hell else has she seen? What is she exactly? Where/when is she from? etc. We don't even really get any glimpse into her thoughts of what she is seeing, I'd like to have been in her mind through some of the series.

Spoiler:

I actually liked the fact that they left much of Lala-Ru's past a secret, I mean, there wasn't much to imagine. It's revealed later that she's been around for thousands of years (I actually think the poem at the beginning of the show before the credits is about her) in the form of a child, and is entombed in fable as a mythical water-bringing witch. She has no optimism whatsoever, b/c from her prior experiences, she understands that people only take her for granted, gain power, then kill each other. Just imagine what happened at Helliwood and Bali Zaid? happening over and over in her memory. It actually shocked me when I found out she wasn't a kid-- for her technical omnipotence, she's so weak and self-defeatist. I think that surprise made the series all the more memorable though-- welcome to a world where the gods have no power.

I personally also agree with Tron and Dreamless on the point of Shu's optimism. There were times when I admired him for his strength to live on, but when he tried to stop Sara from killing herself and spoke hollow words to her, I stood on the verge of throwing stuff at the screen. Though what he was talking about may have applied to the child soldiers, Lala-Ru, the slaves, and himself, it certainly didn't apply to Sara. It did disturb me, though, that Shu saw the negative emotional change after seeing Nabuca die. You can tell from the way he looked at his kendo equipment when he returned home that he was scarred forever. Though I disagreed with Shu's optimism, though, I couldn't help but admire the optimism that Sis had. Hers was a different kind-- a courage that came not from childish inexperience, but a desire to live, hardened by years of torment. She presents the logical, mature voice in the series that no other character has. Her death is thus that much more shattering.

Btw, I had an outside-story question: Did this series air on TV in Japan? (I'm sure it did) But I was just curious as to when (what time) and where (what type of channels)-- The material in it, though true-- seemed waaay too grim and dark for the average watcher to take without much emotional trauma. It's one thing to watch something like Hellsing and watch the blood flow, but it's another realm with the psychological elements present in NTHT.

[TronDD]

Originally Posted by Ambience Blue

[spoiler] I actually liked the fact that they left much of Lala-Ru's past a secret, I mean, there wasn't much to imagine. It's revealed later that she's been around for thousands of years (I actually think the poem at the beginning of the show before the credits is about her) in the form of a child, and is entombed in fable as a mythical water-bringing witch. She has no optimism whatsoever, b/c from her prior experiences, she understands that people only take her for granted, gain power, then kill each other.

I like that an explicit shawing of Lalaru's past and such were left out in this series, too. It wouldn't fit, I don't think. However, a different series that was more from her point of view would be cool. Something kinda documentary-like could be an interesting way to do it. If I had any creativity, maybe I'd write a fan-fic.

Originally Posted by Ambience Blue

Welcome to a world where the gods have no power.

I like that statement. Very interesting interpretation.

[ubb]

I've seen several short clips of NTHT, main reason I didn't watch it then was because I didn't find one kendo kid beating 5 other kid using guns as realistic(of course, back then I was such an anime newbie looking for something realistic in anime is like finding a needle in a haysack). I'd probably watch the whole series some other time.

[Lord Raiden]

Man, I just finished watching this and all I can say is "like...wow". Yes, this is most definately one seriously F'ed up anime. On par with Narutaru most definately. I'd complain about a few inconsistencies and some stuff left unresolved/unanswered, but good gauds, I'm still so in shock I'm not even gonna bother.

And poor Boo.

[TerryMathews]

I'm probably going to get slapped for reviving an old thread, but I just watched NTHT last night and wanted to see what everyone else though - and having read that I want to interject my interpretation, that no one else seemed to come up with.

Spoiler:

Lala Ru is, by her own admission, "tens of thousands of years old". Assuming the whole show is set on Earth, just in different time periods as is the indication, Lala Ru has been witness to most of the events of human history.

Part of Shu's character is that he never gives up and never hangs back. Maybe I'm reading too much into it and romanticising it a little too much, but I think that Lala Ru went to Shu's time specifically to drag him along, knowing that he had the innocence of a child and the determination necessary to defeat Hamdo. No one else was stupid and blindly aggressive enough to defeat Hamdo; just look at the way the Zani Bars villagers kept futzing everything up.

I think Shu (and Sara) are a hidden testament to the strength of children.