2012-06-27, 04:07 | Link #29362 | |
Detective, Witch, Pirate.
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Ruins of the Golden Land
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(Then again, I personally didn't mind it at all when reading EP6, since it had me at the edge of my seat in many points, so I had no time to fret over things like that.)
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2012-06-27, 04:22 | Link #29363 | ||
Senior Member
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Because the guest room was sealed at the time of Battler's autopsy it was absolutely impossible to enter or leave the room until I came back again and broke the seal myself. That is why it is definite that Battler had to be hiding in the guestroom when I entered. Battler's chance for escape was only after I broke the seal. To limit it further, except the moment when I was in the bathroom there is no chance for escape. The problem here is that two argumentative planes interact with each other. The plane of the narrative where these things actually happen and the theoretical plain where these are only concepts. It actually never clearly states that Battler even was in the room when she sealed it, only that she sealed it after his autopsy and that he is destined to be in the room therefore. Quote:
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2012-06-27, 06:17 | Link #29364 | |||||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
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Or maybe that is how Ry7 wants me to think..... Quote:
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2012-06-27, 07:30 | Link #29365 | |
Senior Member
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Anime episode 17 (01:39)
Rudolph is lying face up to the direct left of the portrait and Kyrie face up directly in front of epitaph plate. Hideyoshi is lying face up in front of the sofa, to the right of the stairs. Anime episode 17 (17:03) When they push the doors to the mansion open Hideyoshi is still lying in the same spot, but Rudolph is now lying face down a little to the right of the epitaph plate, even further than Kyrie lay a while ago and Kyrie is nowhere to be seen. In episode 18 they are face up in their old positions again...but it still strikes me as strange... This is of course considering that Ryűkishi actually paid attention to this point, but seeing how he told only Beato's voice actress what actually happened and only Shannon's to a certain extent, I think we can assume he would have minded such a blatant move from the anime creators. And it's nearly impossible to be a mistake because these are changes that have to be done instead of just reusing the exact same cells twice (which is easier and cheaper). Quote:
EP6 showed Battler apparently maneuvering himself into an inescapable trap only to be saved by a system that nobody of the antagonists had anticipated. It basically was all about constructing a framework for the loophole of the "empty character space" to be used. Basically you could say that EP1-4 pretty much concerned themselves with the Who and Why but didn't concern themselves with the How and Chiru in turn technically became only about the How, while repeating the actions of the first Episodes from a different perspective. |
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2012-06-27, 09:34 | Link #29366 | ||
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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We have confirmed that the seals to the guest room are UNDAMAGED. Since the time Lady Erika confirmed Battler's existence, this closed room has been PRESERVED. I proclaim that the chain lock has been repaired by the duct tape seal and has regained its original functionality. And, thanks to that, I locked the room upon entering it and made this guest room a closed room from the inside once more. and Battler must have somehow left the room at one point Battler does not exist within the guest room. Albeit I think R07 forgot about the loophole he created himself that if someone is dead then he doesn't exist, meaning that Battler could have saved himself from the logic error simply by killing himself. But for the sake of the game let's just pretend that Battler had to leave the room somehow. The you need to find someone that could "save him" and this someone was our chamaleontic Yasu. I doubt it went differently, after all there must be a reason if the seal of the windows of the neighboring room couldn't be confirmed to be intact. Still, it is entirily possible that whoever took Battler's place, didn't chose the same place to hide. Yasu could have hidden herself under the bed. Quote:
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2012-06-27, 09:54 | Link #29367 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2012
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I actually have written an entire solution to ShKanon I just haven't posted it anywhere yet. But in it the culprit of Ep 3 4-8 twilights and beyond is Eva and Shannon for George's murder and Nanjo's murder then she got Jessica. Went back to the parlor and killed herself for good. I don't know I'm sure there are red truths to go against it.
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2012-06-27, 10:01 | Link #29368 | |
Eaten by goats
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Rokkenjima
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About what you mentioned of the theory just now: you're saying that Eva and Shannon kill George? I'm a little curious about what Eva's motive could be for that. There may not be any reds saying she couldn't kill her own son, but it doesn't seem in character for her. |
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2012-06-27, 10:47 | Link #29369 | |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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They've done tons of other errors like this. Forgetting to draw the one winged eagle onto people's clothes sometimes, and giving the stakes of purgatory the wrong hair colors are a couple. |
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2012-06-27, 11:07 | Link #29370 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2012
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Also the thing with the corpses is probably just a DEEN mistake. Do you remember the scene where Ange kills the Stakes and she ends up killing Lucifer twice because they drew Satan wrong. Seriously DEEN makes so many mistakes I find the anime is not very reliable with any info
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2012-06-27, 13:02 | Link #29371 | |
Junior Member
Join Date: Sep 2009
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Eva (and possibly the other adults [or just Rosa]) solve the Epitaph on the first night, similar to EP7 Tea Party. They meet Yasu in the underground gold room. Eva chooses to recognize and accept her as The Golden Witch, Beatrice, and in doing so she kills Shannon and Kanon. If this is true, Shannon and Kanon were killed by other people and their killer was in the same room when they killed them. I might be missing some obvious red somewhere, though. |
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2012-06-27, 13:07 | Link #29372 | |||
BUY MY BOOK!!!
Join Date: May 2009
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Of course. Three people--in other words, three bodies--went in or out. Only you and Kanon entered, and only Battler left. It has already been said in red that all people can only use their own names. Therefore, the names Erika, Battler, and Kanon can only be used by those people. Erika explicitly asks that Battler refer to the number of bodies that enter or exit the room. Therefore, Kanon's body must enter and presumably remain in the Logic Error room even if Kanon himself ceases to exist. Quote:
However, it's impossible to "irrevocably kill" something which lacks an external enforcement mechanism to actually make the act irrevocable. Killing a biological entity is irrevocable because the very act of biological death is itself irrevocable, such that when you kill something it ceases biological functionality. You can decide to un-kill it, but you aren't physically able to un-kill it, so it stays dead. That's what irrevocable or incontrovertible means, you can't change it or go back on it. With "personas," there is absolutely no mechanism which prevents Yasu from "reviving" Shannon or Kanon at will or simply creating an exact copy of Shannon/Kanon from before they were "killed." Philosophically, of course, these two actions are exactly the same thing. In other words, she can't make an irrevocable decision to kill Shannon or Kanon, short of killing her physical body. The nature of "existing" for Shannon and Kanon precludes the possibility that they can ever truly die for as long as their host body and/or creator entity lives. But Beatrice/Yasu can't exist in the stories because then her master personality would be an additional person. Which creates the phenomenon of Zombie Shkanon I went over a while back and the whole thing just collapses on itself. Ryukishi isn't allowed to have it both ways, but he tries anyway. Quote:
We are told that this crime must have a human solution. Therefore, if "multiple personalities" are going to exist and be counted they must be an observable human phenomenon. For the sake of argument, let's assume all the dumb stuff about Shkanontrice and on-demand persona switching is entirely scientifically accurate, observable, and fully human process, such that it doesn't violate any ban on the supernatural. Okay. So. How do personalities actually switch? There are three options here:
And that problem is this: What is the initiating physical action which causes a personality either to surface or to switch? To use a solution like "Beatrice became dominant and replaced Kanon," it must be explained how a personality that doesn't presently exist (and therefore cannot apprehend anything) can emerge in response to any form of stimulus. "Not existing" is a pretty high bar to set. It doesn't mean you're asleep. It means you do not exist. A thing which does not exist cannot choose to appear because it doesn't exist to perform an act of choosing. It cannot "awaken in response to a memory" because it's not sleeping and sensing, it doesn't exist at all and therefore can sense nothing. Indeed, for a personality to be invented or recalled it must be acted upon by an external force. But if that external force exists, say as "the brain of Yasu," which regulates the "minds" of each personality and creates and destroys them as necessary, this external force must take up a person slot unto itself. The only way around this is to argue that the "body and brain of the host Yasu" is merely a physical apparatus and "personhood" is contained solely in the mind, and that Yasu's brain which operates as a sort of server or switching board for her myriad minds is not a person. And that's bollocks. In short, you pretty much have to be a Cartesian Dualist to even accept the functioning of Shkanontrice in the first place, and Cartesian Dualism is for nerds and arguably violates the spirit of Battler's "human truth" claim since a dualist believes that minds are non-apprehensible non-physical entities, and therefore equivalent to Witches. The only other way to resolve this issue is to suggest that all personalities voluntarily shut themselves down in order to transfer control. I would submit that voluntary sublimation of one's consciousness in this manner is "suicide," and therefore impossible under the red in Banquet. The other option would be that stimuli acting on the active personality can cause it to sublimate, but the problem there is that forcing Kanon to stop existing cannot create Shannon, and Kanon cannot simply be transitioned into Shannon because that violates the notion that the personalities are distinct and not merely a single personality voluntarily acting them out. So neither Shannon or Kanon was able to voluntarily sublimate themselves, and no external force exists which can cause them to be sublimated, therefore Banquet of the Golden Witch contains an irresolvable Logic Error. ...Well, alright, you could also technically argue the personalities arise entirely at random due to comprehensible biological processes, but that makes everything Shkanontrice does remarkably convenient, given that sublimation never randomly occurs at an important point in time (such as mid-murder). Therefore it violates even the suspension of disbelief I have granted Shkanontrice as a premise for this thought experiment and means the writing is even dumber than I am quite literally giving it credit for.
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2012-06-27, 14:22 | Link #29373 | |||||||
Eaten by goats
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Rokkenjima
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Life (and bandwidth) is too short to watch the nine hour KnownNoMore video for the anti-Shkanon solution, but I was curious enough to go and look through the comments. Which there were a lot of! And which seem to have got pretty heated. Some people really having a go at KnownNoMore for missing the point of the series ("It's sad to see Goats go to this measure...") and other commenters having a go at "dogmatic Shkanon believers" and "Twilight addicts". Even one "There are actually a lot of similarities between Shkanon believers and religious people who believe their holy book is inerrant". And, well, problem with making a nine hour theory video is probably that by the end nearly anyone would be really, really fixated on their theory being correct, because wow, all that time spent on making it.
The main ideas put forward appear to be Yasu = fictional, Rosa = Beatrice, Shannon and Kanon = separate bodies, Rosa took over Shannon's love for Battler, and people = living human bodies and never personalities. Ryukishi made an illusory truth about Shkanon to cover up a Rosa, Nanjo and George culprit solution. Rosa is doing it because she's wracked with guilt over Kuwadorian Beato's death and wants to perform the epitaph ceremony in order to resurrect her. Nanjo's doing it for money. (I don't know why George is doing it according to this theory.) And ep 7 was written in order to deceive the audience. Somebody actually did a transcript of the first few parts of the videos. It doesn't get far, but if anyone's curious about what the theory is about, it's the only transcript out there that I know of. It mostly just goes through the ideas of why Shkanon theory is false in KnownNoMore's opinion. https://sites.google.com/site/ralphm...neko-explained https://sites.google.com/site/ralphm...ained-part-1-a And some quotes from KnownNoMore in the comments on the Youtube video: Quote:
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2012-06-27, 14:41 | Link #29374 | ||
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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There are certainly ways around this, such as the adults acknowledging Yasu as Beatrice while Yasu is in "Shannon mode", but none of them I find very comfortable. Quote:
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2012-06-27, 15:26 | Link #29375 |
BUY MY BOOK!!!
Join Date: May 2009
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Aberrant psychology should not be used as a basis for a statement of truth. The red cannot be permitted to conform to a person's belief that an individual - regardless of substantive makeup - has "died" if there is not some distinct belief in the practical finality of that event. Otherwise, Shannon and Kanon die multiple times every day. At that point, saying they are presently dead is meaningless because it is always possible to point to a "Shannon" who is dead (even if "Shannon" is alive), and the Kanon name exclusivity argument is violated because there are multiple "Kanons." It's the same personality recalled, which therefore means sublimation cannot be viewed as death. To suggest otherwise is cheating, to essentially redefine "dead" as "asleep," and at that point Kinzotrice and the like are all possible events.
And none of that matters anyway, because the rules were never actually established in the first place. So it's still cheating, because the writer hasn't actually bothered telling us enough to determine how a process works. His retreat into ambiguity is no doubt precisely because he has no idea how the process is philosophically justifiable.
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2012-06-27, 15:31 | Link #29376 |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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The problem, I think, is the fact that Ryuukishi by using the personalities gimmick defied the basic rule that the mystery must have a human explanation.
Personalites taken as mere entities detatched from their physical bodies are "human" (adjective) but are not human beings. And he even said so himself they are "less than human". But that means our culprit isn't even a human and two of the victims aren't human either. Personalities might "exist" in our real world, but the way ryuukishi treats them is the same as if they were supernatural entities. In other words it isn't really different than magic. Because "Kanon" in Ep6 actually magically vanished into nothingness, and that is not something that can happen to something physical in the physical world. In other words this is not a naturalistic approach, which is what is supposed to be used in sleuthing, it's philosophical and metaphisical. You can argue that a personality can die, but that's a philosophical argument, you cannot demonstrate that this is an objective truth rather than a simple interpretation. Obi Wan Kenobi can say that Darth Vader killed Anakin Skywalker, but that's just his interpretation, it's not a fact. And since it's not a fact it shouldn't be possible to state it in red. For the same reason any red truth stating the death of Shannon and Kanon assumes the objectivity and validity of personality death when it can be certainly disputed. And that's where the whole concept of the red truths fails miserably: The "absolute" part of an "absolute truth" is absolutely void of any meaning if the definitions of the terms used are subjective and not absolute. The problem is that we know for a fact that the red truths of Umineko make use of subjective definitions, and that means the reliability of red truths is just a facade and doesn't really provide any certainty at all.
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2012-06-27, 15:32 | Link #29377 | |||||
Detective, Witch, Pirate.
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Ruins of the Golden Land
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I mean, his whole premise of the Rosa culprit is ridiculous, but this makes no freakin' sense. I mean, honestly, I do have some respect for the guy, he's got a bunch of clever ideas, like the fact that Rosa could be lying about being with her boyfriends (which, however, could be tackled by the existence of the receipt which Maria sees, but it's still imaginative anyway), but he goes and completely ignores the whydunnit. Rosa's actions as he describes them make absolutely no sense. First of all, why would she feel guilty towrads Shannon in the first place? Or why would she want her to hook up with George so badly? Or why would Ryukishi keep lying in his interviews and expect his readers to see past that for some reason? Or what about the 'no red truth, no certainty'? Did he even read EP8? But okay, let's say the last one is acceptable when trying to solve the mystery (which really isn't because the red truth isn't really of any help if taken as the only basis to start reasoning). What bugs me the most is that he's so damn confident in his theory which makes absolutely no sense. I...just have no words.
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2012-06-27, 15:35 | Link #29379 |
"Senior" "Member"
Join Date: Jan 2012
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I will not even try to watch a 9-hour video... and having to pause all the time... no thx, but there are 2 main issues i got with a Rosa-George-Nanjo culprit theory:
1. The REAL PERFECT closed room in EP2. How did they all die? If I remember correctly, then the only person that was in the right position for the "hide-gun-by-suicide" method was Shannon? Well please explain how all of them are in a perfect closed room then. Magic? 2. Said to Erika in EP6: Sorry, but even if you do join us.... there are 17 people! |
2012-06-27, 15:41 | Link #29380 | |||
Eaten by goats
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Rokkenjima
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