[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[AuraTwilight]

Though isn't THAT more like a Red Truth since she is basically the god of the HP world? She's like author Yasu and author Tohya in the sense that she can also make up Reds (the first kind of two that Battler mentioned in EP8 (1)) as long as they don't violate the frame of the narrative and don't go against the second kind of Red (which would be like a canon maybe?!).

Death of the Author is a thing invoked in Umineko, so it's a very valid comparison. As one with a perfect understanding of the series, and as it's Game Master, she can make any red she wants, surely, but if it's not explicitly supported by the text, it's a gold truth that can be denied. Battler is dead is still trumped by Battler is alive.

Re:GuestSpeaker; Yea I don't believe Yasu commited any crimes for a damn second. If she was intended to be, Ryukishi botched it up since Yasu is both too meek to be proactive in her own daily life AND has a demonstratable complex for taking the blame for everything and constantly lying to support her imaginary narratives, her confessions can never really be worth much of anything.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker

I had some thoughts I needed airing, this seemed like an appropriate spot.

In regards to how Battler could forgive Yasu for everything, do you think it is as simple as just because she only planned terrible things, but didn't actually do it? I know she even set up the guns, but hear me out.

You might say that it wasn't that Yasu wasn't able to go through with it, more accurately she was stopped by a rule she herself invented (let's not delve into that for the moment).

We know that Kyrie planned and may have even prepared to kill Asumu, but in the end she didn't have to because Asumu died (probably). Would you be able to forgive her for that? Even if she had the knife prepared?

Or Maria, who planned to kill her mother. You could say it was idle fantasy, but there is sufficient evidence to say she went to Beato about it. If she prepared and cast a magic spell that she thought would kill her mother, would you forgive her just because her mother lived? The only reason she was stopped was because magic isn't real, which wasn't even something she chose.

In TL;dr summary:
Do you think Battler forgave her because she was only guilty of conspiracy to commit murder and was desperately mentally unwell?

About the forgiving part I think it depends.
We can't really get in her mind and probably she doesn't know herself what would have happened if the adults hadn't solved the epitaph but if you've the belief she wouldn't have managed to kill even if she had reached the point in which she pointed a gun at someone, it gets way easier to forgive someone with a 'you were really angry and you thought of doing something really terrible but deep down you're a good person and wouldn't do it'.
And that, given the situation we're in, is the easiest way to forgive her because it can't be disproved. As long as one hasn't killed anyone even if he claims he wanted to do it and had everything ready to do it, no one can prove he would have the determination to get through it.
To prove it you've to shoot the bullet, not just to grab the gun.

Of course this is also a matter of inner faith in that person.
The trick ending represents exactly this. Ange knows that Amakusa and Kuwabata could have been set up to kill her and doesn't believe they would hesitate in killing her but actually, as long as they didn't push the trigger, she couldn't be sure they were out to kill her.

In short, to use a theme Umineko likes quite a bit, it's all a matter of having love.

Keep in mind Battler loves Yasu so, even if she had killed everyone, he would end up telling himself she had a legittimate reason, that she was cornered, that it was all his fault, that 'insert random reason that would make sense for him'.

Of course if she had killed someone it would be more troublesome for him to make up excuses but there's plenty of people who do it because, in a way, love also makes you blind.
Maria is an example of this when she keeps on justifying Rosa.

But as long as Yasu didn't really kill anyone Battler can conveniently tell himself that in the end she wouldn't have done it and wave it all away with a 'you walked till the rope of a cliff but didn't jump off of it'.

For a reader the matter is different though as he surely isn't as emotionally involved as him and he can believe that, given the chance she would have jumped off of it or decide that just by walking till the cliff, she's guilty.

In short the decision becomes very personal and influenced by what you think about the person involved.

[Dormin]

I heard that the umineko manga "partially shows" the "single truth". Interestingly enough, I also heard that this truth shown would contain parts of ep 7 tea party.

Now I remember someone was reading the manga on this forum, and would like to ask if this was just false information or something that actually happened. I'm quite interested as it would further back up the theory I personally find most plausible about prime.

[Drifloon]

Here you go.

[Witch of Uncertainty]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Re:GuestSpeaker; Yea I don't believe Yasu commited any crimes for a damn second. If she was intended to be, Ryukishi botched it up since Yasu is both too meek to be proactive in her own daily life AND has a demonstratable complex for taking the blame for everything and constantly lying to support her imaginary narratives, her confessions can never really be worth much of anything.

I agree that Yasu isn't the culprit, but I can't remember anything about Yasu taking the blame for everything? Could you explain a bit more about this? I see it mentioned several times, but I can't remember exactly where this is demonstrated in the novels.

[Dormin]

Originally Posted by Drifloon

Here you go.

Wow, thanks for the quick reply.

That's it, I guess? I feel somehow empty, even though I believed that is somewhat what happened during the prime. At least it is in my opinion the truth that made most sense, and it would had been very disappointing if the truth would had been something totally different. Now we'll just wait until someone finds some innovative loophole and denies this.

Although I don't know if people even consider the manga canon.

I agree that Yasu isn't the culprit, but I can't remember anything about Yasu taking the blame for everything? Could you explain a bit more about this? I see it mentioned several times, but I can't remember exactly where this is demonstrated in the novels.

I think this is at least clearly played on metaphorical level: Beatrice is a person "created" to carry the burdens of other people.

Now if we suppose Yasu isn't the culprit and the real killer is someone else (at least Ryu seems to agree with me, considering the shocking manga revelation), this is what literally is happening: the public opinion is that "Beatrice=Yasu=Culprit", even though s/he is just blamed wrongly because message bottles he sent. Wouldn't this mean that yasu is carrying the burdens of the real culprit, and the entire umineko being a cover-up with Yasu actually acting as "false culprit"? Naming yourself as the killer, even if in made up confessions, would probably be enough to take the blame.

[AuraTwilight]

Dormin beat me to it. Beatrice is an existence that accepts the blame of all tragedies on the island, and is the face Yasu most strongly identifies with. She martyrs herself as a villain to protect the nobility of the Ushiromiya family, and allow them to be remembered for their potential heroism and not for their ugliest aspects.

The fact that she didn't succeed at this only compounds her tragedy.

[Witch of Uncertainty]

I guess I understand where you're coming from, but Beatrice was created before the incident, and was named the culprit because she was the culprit until her heart was to be exposed.
If Yasu threw the bottles after the incident, maybe I'd agree, but to me, it seems more like Yasu's attempt to be understood (by especially Battler), than actually taking the blame.
Maybe Meta-Beatrice, but even she begs for Battler to find the truth, and not accept the Fantasy she set up. Which again, was created pre-incident (Well, 2 of her gamebaords, at least).

[ALPHA-Beatrice]

My apologies to everyone else. But I've come up with another theory(Or rather, another one of my wacky ways to try to attack the 'established truth'). The established truth I want to attack this time is Game 6's Logic Error..... Or No.....

Is it even an error at at all? It was said that at the "time of the logic error" that the doors were sealed. And while it may be true that Meta Erika would know when the seals would be broken, Physical Erika has no way of knowing this fact

Specifically "At the time of the Logic Error" has to logically be the same time that Furudo Erika's trapped in the bathroom. During that time, Physical Erika can't acknowledge anything. She doesn't even have the Detective's Authority.

Since Furudo Erika committed the murders by some form of stabbing, not even the bag could have completely muffled those voices. The others who were hiding in the two rooms over now had a firm understanding that something was wrong. One of them tore the seal, met Battler at the Guest Room and changed places with him.

No need for Yasu, no need for switching genders. Just by the fact that Erika was sealed in a temporary closed room(the bathroom), look how far Alpha's reasoning took him. What does everyone think?

[Drifloon]

Except they said in red repeatedly that the seals were intact. And the murders took place in the mansion, so it would be ridiculous for anyone in the guesthouse to hear them.

[ALPHA-Beatrice]

Originally Posted by Drifloon

Except they said in red repeatedly that the seals were intact. And the murders took place in the mansion, so it would be ridiculous for anyone in the guesthouse to hear them.

[By the seals on the doors and windows,] the complete sealing of both the cousins' room and the next room over has been GUARANTEED.
We have confirmed that the seals to the guest room are UNDAMAGED. Since the time Lady Erika confirmed Battler's existence, this closed room has been PRESERVED.


This refers to the initial discovery of Battler's corpse, IE: When Physical Erika first walked through the halls to the Guest Room. To put it stupidly simple: As Erika said, during that time in the bathroom, the guarantee that no one was in the bedroom dissipated.

However, that wasn't the only guarantee that dissipated. The guarantee for the seals(and pretty much anything else really) was also dissipated in that time span where Physical Erika couldn't observe what was happening.

[Drifloon]

I don't think it's physically possible for someone to get all the way from the guesthouse to the mansion during the time Erika was in the bathroom. Nice try though.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Witch of Uncertainty

I guess I understand where you're coming from, but Beatrice was created before the incident, and was named the culprit because she was the culprit until her heart was to be exposed.
If Yasu threw the bottles after the incident, maybe I'd agree, but to me, it seems more like Yasu's attempt to be understood (by especially Battler), than actually taking the blame.
Maybe Meta-Beatrice, but even she begs for Battler to find the truth, and not accept the Fantasy she set up. Which again, was created pre-incident (Well, 2 of her gamebaords, at least).

Okay, rereading the latest manga developments and the last 2 episodes I think maybe I've a theory that works.
Beatrice, or better the games, were created to try and have Battler understand her.
However when in Prime everything backfired Yasu somehow survived and sealed the truth by spreading the tales. In this way she:

- helped to generate the catbox in which Beatrice was alive and the truth was hidden
- could hope someone else would discover the truth about herself

I don't think she covered up everything using Beatrice purely out of the kindness of her heart, though she likely feel responsible and that's her way to deal with it.

Originally Posted by Dormin

Wow, thanks for the quick reply.

That's it, I guess? I feel somehow empty, even though I believed that is somewhat what happened during the prime. At least it is in my opinion the truth that made most sense, and it would had been very disappointing if the truth would had been something totally different. Now we'll just wait until someone finds some innovative loophole and denies this.

Although I don't know if people even consider the manga canon.

Ryukishi said he would have used the manga to give additional info over the games so I'll say everything that figures in them and that's related to the solution is an additional hint given by Ryukishi.

Also, bits of Eva's diary were supposed to be visible in the VN as well but after Ryukishi made invisible a part of it. I guess with the manga he decided to let people see it again.

[ALPHA-Beatrice]

Originally Posted by Drifloon

I don't think it's physically possible for someone to get all the way from the guesthouse to the mansion during the time Erika was in the bathroom. Nice try though.

It's implied to be possible since Battler, as the Game Master wanted to use the people in those two rooms. it was then shown that the seals hadn't been broken "at the time of the logic error"

I'm simply contending that Physical Erika has no actual way of knowing this. And/or the "time of the logic error" doesn't get clearly defined enough.

As a part of Beato's solution, Kanon escapes from the Cousins's closed room(or as Erika later defined: that Kanon was never actually in it) and was the one to trade places with Battler.

This was possible not only for Kanon, but literally for anyone and everyone else. For all Erika knows, NO ONE is in the two rooms. If this were in the Meta-World, I'd like to ask the Witch of Truth to repeat it: That the Logic Error is at the same time as she was trapped.

[theforgot3n1]

By the way, Alpha, how come Battler can't set the chain from the outside in that closed room in ep 6? I am trying to look through the red truths right now, but I can't find one pertaining to that. Is it a general definition?

[AuraTwilight]

It's a common-sense ruling. If a lock can be set from outside a room, it also means it can be unset, which would undo its purpose as a locking mechanism.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by theforgot3n1

By the way, Alpha, how come Battler can't set the chain from the outside in that closed room in ep 6? I am trying to look through the red truths right now, but I can't find one pertaining to that. Is it a general definition?

It's a requisite for the closed room to be closed room.

I think Beato defined closed rooms in Ep 3 but in Ep 6 is also confirmed in red.

"Then let's get started with the closed rooms of the first twilight. ......First, I'd like to check. Do you intend to respond if I ask you to repeat something in red?"

"Depending on what you say, yes. I have no obligation to respond to all, and I won't reveal my reasons when I refuse."
"<Good>. ......Then let's start simple and confirm the definition of a closed room. Dlanor! Please read it aloud."

"UNDERSTOOD. ......We demand that the following be REPEATED."

Dlanor spread out one of those scrolls that some official would always spread out when announcing the king in western fairy tales, and read it aloud.

"First. 'The rooms with the six people in them are all closed ROOMS'."
"Acknowledged. Of course, that's only until Gohda and the others severed the chains and destroyed the closed rooms."

At a nod from Dlanor, Cornelia, who stood behind her, started taking notes.

"Second. 'The definition of closed room implies that it is impossible to construct from the OUTSIDE'."
"Acknowledged."

"......In other words, no trickery done from the outside can construct a closed room. It is not permitted for a chain lock to be reset from the outside by a skillfully used wire, for example."
"I didn't need you to tell me that. Dlanor, please continue."

In short, as it's impossible to construct the closed room from the outside, the chain can't be set from the outside in the game... even if probably in real life with the proper tools you could manage to do it.

[Leafsnail]

I think "Every closed room is indeed perfectly sealed" is a fundamental, unbreakable rule of Beatrice's games anyway. She uses magic, not tricks.

In any case though, remember that the ep6 logic error has to be about the heart of the game. That means some silly wording trick just won't cut it.

[theforgot3n1]

Well, if we assume Battler (or Kanon) is a really freaking accurate guy when it comes to throwing things, couldn't he walk out of the room while holding the chain, throw it into the air to make it land perfectly to fit into whatever makes the chain lock while closing the door. Or if Kanon was better suited for it, he could have tried it instead after having swapped with Battler.

I reckon that would satisfy all the conditions of Battler getting out? It's a pretty crazy idea though. Some simple red like "gravity is not sufficient to lock the chain" would easily tear it apart. That was the only little reasoning I made myself, and I honestly thought it was at least okay, but was saddened they didn't ball the idea at all.

Don't want too many point in the same post, but wasn't killing all those corpses completely unnecessary? It was confirmed in red that everyone else is in the room next to the one with five people in it, so wouldn't that include the people that pretended to be dead, making it impossible for them to have actually been pretending to be dead?

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by theforgot3n1

Don't want too many point in the same post, but wasn't killing all those corpses completely unnecessary? It was confirmed in red that everyone else is in the room next to the one with five people in it, so wouldn't that include the people that pretended to be dead, making it impossible for them to have actually been pretending to be dead?

This would include Battler and Erika as well though, although Kinzo was excluded.