[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[AC-Phoenix]

Well lets think outside of the box:
Is it really necessary to proove that whiches don't exist?

Proving that the murders themselves were not carried out by one would be enough, toi win it. (Beatrice could for example just finish him of by forcing him to explain the meta world and all the changes she made)

So lets for a second assume that EP 1 was what really happened, then the mystery hardest to solve is Natsuhis death.

lets assume Kanon really did die.
We already know that Natsuhi was killed by another person, not a trap and that a human pulled the trigger.
So now there is no red tet that both the murderer and the cultprint were in the same room. There could have been some kind of Remote control. If not either Kanon or Shanon are still alive.
Neglecting that last sentence the one with enough brain left is George, as Battler cannot be the cultprint due to his detective status.
A remote trigger also wouldn't contradict Beatrice red text that a living person pulled the trigger.

As for the explosion:
Battler aimlessly shot around. It is possible that he hit gas tube too.
It would be an accident, and that wouldn't make him a murderer.

[Moogleking]

It is a given that someone faked death in episode 1.
Kanon is the most likely, especially since nothing could have really killed him, except for another person also faking death from earlier.

Natsuhi was shot by whoever faked death in game 1.

Talking about remote controls and accidentally blowing up the mansion is just ridiculous. Might as well think mini-bombs were served at dinner and planned to go off at various times throughout the next day. This is especially ridiculous when there is red that says she was not killed by a trap.

[AC-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Moogleking

It is a given that someone faked death in episode 1.
Kanon is the most likely, especially since nothing could have really killed him, except for another person also faking death from earlier.

Natsuhi was shot by whoever faked death in game 1.

Talking about remote controls and accidentally blowing up the mansion is just ridiculous. Might as well think mini-bombs were served at dinner and planned to go off at various times throughout the next day. This is especially ridiculous when there is red that says she was not killed by a trap.

Well a remote control is not exactly a trap. You still have tu pull the trigger and it would therefore not contradict the red about traps.

Mini bombs are Battlers own argument regarding the Chapel-dinner murder.
That minobomb theory is a gray area, as it is a trap but it isnt...
there always is a chance of a trap being triggered by the wrong person, so minobombs planted in a persons meal are not really traps.

If you really want to make them a trap:

Place 10 Apples with bomb inside on a table, from now on you can no longer control(or very few) who eats them, and therefore the bomb. There is a high probability that your target will be one of the 10, but still its a trap not really directed.

[Moogleking]

You completely missed the point.

What you're suggesting is both ridiculous and not supported by evidence at all. You're basically throwing out something random (like Battler with the minibombs) just because you can. We're constantly told that something like that is not the solution.

[June 1983]

Just a little note. I started reading E. M. Forster's Howards End today, and was immediately struck by the famous epigraph of the novel, "Only connect."

It's taken from this passage in the book:

Only connect! That was the whole of her sermon. Only connect the prose and the passion, and both will be exalted, and human love will be seen at its height. Live in fragments no longer. Only connect, and the beast and the monk, robbed of the isolation that is life to either, will die.

Reminds me a lot of "Without love, the truth cannot be seen."

[AC-Phoenix]

The whole point is that you can't say for sure that the cultprint didn't change throught the games.

Kanon can't be the cultprint in the second EP because Beatrice stated that he was killed in Jessica's room, obviously referring to the past.


So the next person who could have done it in EP 1 was Shannon, as Battler has never seen her corpse.
The problem is that Shannon lacks a true motive.
While I suspect her to beone of Battler's cousins and partly even being Beatrice herself, but the latter impression of mine is mainly caused by a drawing mistake in the anime where her tatoo was on the wrong leg once.

You also have to admit that finding a motive for george killing Shannon is much easier than finding one for Shannon killing George.
The simpliest solution to the whole motive is that she decided to reject him .

Another problem is Maria, there are not many persons left she would listen too, and george is definitely one of them.
Also George never intended to kill any of the cousins.
So by maninpulating Maria he managed to create a closed room murder without being in there. The last victims in EP 1 already beleft in Beatrice, so there was no need to really persuade them.
Battler theory that everyone shoot the other and Maria then hid the guns might lack elegance but is a possibility.
Battler has also shown us in EP 1 that Maria is really easy to maninpulate by simply using her as a tool to get some information out of George.
As reason for those three to shoot each other:
The perpetrator threatened them to kill Maria if they don't in one of his/her letters.

Lets see who was inside the room:
Maria who wasnt the murderer
Genji, Najo and the onld lady

Neither of them would have let Maria die for them.

But lets get away from that theory for a while and explain other methods:
It is impossible tocreate the closed room without Maria's help.
She was stated as not being the cultprint but not as not being an accomplice.
Letting her open and close the door would be goog enough to pull that off.


I will back this up the possiblity of him being the cultprint by the fact that he promised Maria that everything will be fine as long as they are together. There was probably no need to kill Jessica as she would have failed as the head anyway and she knew that, so George would have been made next. I think she even talked about giving the head title to someone else.

Another possibility is that the cultprint was already in the room when they entered, so it would have been easy and no one even looked if one of their keys is missing. The onyl one laying his key down was Genji, the old woman didn't so its still possible to create the closed room as no one looked if hr key is there.

I also still don't know what the buttlerflies stand for.
They could mean fire, or something that will cause the fire.

Acidentally blowing up the mansion might sound rediculous, but is still a possibility, especially since Battler aimlessly shot at beatrice picture.

Thats also the reason I generally don't hang up pictures on certain wall pieces of my flat.
Simply denying possibilities just because they sound ridiculous is a bit hasty.
There was also a possibility of rooms being locked from outside before Beatrice stated in red that they can't be.

The Remote-trigger theory siply comes from the possibility that all of them are really dead and only those 5 remain. It is a possibility that would allow:
-Everyone to have an alibi for Natsuhis death
-A Human pullling the trigger
-The bullet not comming out of Natuhis own gun.

Theory weakness:
She has to stand at a certain places in order to archieve a fatal hit.


Battlers chain shooting theory:
Pro:
- It does not contradict any red text
- In the anime the Nanjo's and Genmjis finger positions look like they were holding one of those guns shortly before they died.
cons:
- rigor mortis id probably not yet occur
- No one looked for that granny's masterkey
- genjis body is in no position where he could have aimed at one of the others, so he is not facing the others, more like he was suprised when the door opened.

And especially when it comes to the old lady, neither Kanon nor Shannon would have a motive other than fulfilling the epitaph.
Chiyo even helped Shannon out while she got bullied several times so why should Shannon still want to kill her?
Kanon also is happy als long as his Nee-san is, and Chiyo's behavior towards Shannon does not really support a motive.

[Moogleking]

2 things.
1) Kanon is likely not dead in game 2. He is shown to come back and do stuff in that same game, and he is one of the few characters that you can reason can die, without really dying.
2) The room with Genji/Kuma/Nanjo/Maria in game 1 is not a closed room. The master keys could be anywhere. Shannon and Kanon both had master keys.

I'm sorry, you can't accidentally blow the mansion up by shooting at a portrait.
As you've pointed out, remote killing someone doesn't work either, especially if you're not even within view of the event.

While we're not exactly sure about Shannon and Kanon's motives, they're very close to each other, have something to do with Beatrice, and one of them is likely Asumu's child. They are certainly some of the more suspicious characters. The fact that they have the means to do these things also helps put them in the position of culprit. If Shannon is killed for real in episode 1, that gives Kanon plenty of motive.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Moogleking

Kanon is likely not dead in game 2. He is shown to come back and do stuff in that same game, and he is one of the few characters that you can reason can die, without really dying.

You're the only person I've met so far who believes this outside of Shkanon theory. Most people take it as a trick Beato made to show that people can lie and make it into something people think is true. You know like what they say magic is in the later games.

People who beleive Kanon is an individual person don't have a reason to think Kanon can live after being declared dead. I've discussed this with you before, but I don't want to continue that conversation because it seems you'll probably never get it.

[Moogleking]

Originally Posted by Judoh

You're the only person I've met so far who believes this outside of Shkanon theory. Most people take it as a trick Beato made to show that people can lie and make it into something people think is true. You know like what they say magic is in the later games.

If it is all just a lie, then the scene doesn't mean anything. They just showed us that for kicks. I think the magic scenes are metaphors for what really went on. It helps flesh out your explanation for the game when your solution matches up with each of the magic scenes.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Moogleking

If it is all just a lie, then the scene doesn't mean anything. They just showed us that for kicks. I think the magic scenes are metaphors for what really went on. It helps flesh out your explanation for the game when your solution matches up with each of the magic scenes.

No that's not completely true it's an important hint toward the definition of magic that we get in episodes 3 and 5.

Well not every magic scene can be explained that way. The only important thing in a magic scene is the result afterward. And you don't need Kanon to be there for Kumasawa and Nanjo to disappear if they were never really killed there in the first place.

[Moogleking]

Another post, for response to your edit.

Originally Posted by Judoh

People who beleive Kanon is an individual person don't have a reason to think Kanon can live after being declared dead. I've discussed this with you before, but I don't want to continue that conversation because it seems you'll probably never get it.

I don't know why you think it is okay for Kanon to die as long as he becomes Shannon, but not if he becomes someone else. You're just being contradictory there.

"Kanon" dies when he gives up on being furniture/going along with Beatrice.

[Judoh]

I told you before that I was playing Devil's advocate for shkanon at the time.

I also explained why name death doesn't make sense, but you didn't get that either.

[Moogleking]

Originally Posted by Judoh

No that's not completely true it's an important hint toward the definition of magic that we get in episodes 3 and 5.

Well not every magic scene can be explained that way. The only important thing in a magic scene is the result afterward. And you don't need Kanon to be there for Kumasawa and Nanjo to disappear if they were never really killed there in the first place.

The problem if you start declaring magic scenes as not even remotely true is that almost any scene can be a magic scene. You can just come up with some ridiculous explanation for what happened that has nothing to do with the scene as long as the result is the same.

[Kitsu]

People who beleive Kanon is an individual person don't have a reason to think Kanon can live after being declared dead. I've discussed this with you before, but I don't want to continue that conversation because it seems you'll probably never get it.

We don't have a reason to believe that?
In episode 1 after dying it almost got shoved down our throaths that he most likely didn't die and was still alive and kicking. There was no red here so you might want to count this one out.
In episode 2 he appears after dying, two times to be exact.
In episode 3 he appears after dying.
In episode 4 he seems to finally die without coming back.
In episode 5 his death wasn't shown
In episode 6 after dying in the duel and dissappearing/dying in the room with Krauss etc he appears later and rescues Battler. (A spirit form was shown before that)
So we don't have any reason to believe that Kanon has some sort of hax to live after being declared dead? Just because you don't believe in Shkanon doesn't mean you have no reason. The reason is there right in the game. See moogleking does have a reason to doubt Kanon's live death status.
Recently it seems every Umineko dicussion here is getting personal and people are basically just attacking each other.

[Moogleking]

Originally Posted by Judoh

I told you before that I was playing Devil's advocate for shkanon at the time.

I also explained why name death doesn't make sense, but you didn't get that either.

Your explanation of name death not making sense revolved around other people's perceptions of the person. How the name death really works is that the person has truly decided for themselves to give up that part of themselves.

For example, Jessica's death makes Kanon realize that he can't go along with Beatrice anymore, that he can't be furniture anymore, and that he should live for himself. After that point, Kanon the furniture is no more.

[AC-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Moogleking

2 things.
1) Kanon is likely not dead in game 2. He is shown to come back and do stuff in that same game, and he is one of the few characters that you can reason can die, without really dying.
2) The room with Genji/Kuma/Nanjo/Maria in game 1 is not a closed room. The master keys could be anywhere. Shannon and Kanon both had master keys.

I'm sorry, you can't accidentally blow the mansion up by shooting at a portrait.
As you've pointed out, remote killing someone doesn't work either, especially if you're not even within view of the event.

While we're not exactly sure about Shannon and Kanon's motives, they're very close to each other, have something to do with Beatrice, and one of them is likely Asumu's child. They are certainly some of the more suspicious characters. The fact that they have the means to do these things also helps put them in the position of culprit. If Shannon is killed for real in episode 1, that gives Kanon plenty of motive.

Its hard but not impossible. Lay pout a letter at the position you want her to be and she'll be exactly where you want her. Its still not a trap. And thats the whole problem regarding Natsuhis death. Also I stated that the room wasn't closed, even if both Shannon and Kanon were death for sure. Chiyo still had her Master key.
And yeah you can acidentally blow it up by that, IF a gas tube is behind it.
As i said its jsut a possibility, that should not be neglected.

Red means absolute truth, therefore Kanon is dead in EP 2. And no you cant replace him by someone else:
'Only Kanon HIMSELF can claim HIS name'

Edit for Skannon:
It is also highly unlike that Shannon could disguise as a boy, it could work the other way around though.
In contrast Battler tried to touch Shannons chest in EP 1 and Shannon didnt even step back due to her Servant nature.
If she really was Kanon, it would have been as mistake to risk being touched.

There are also a few theories that Battler isn't the same Battler as the one from six years ago, yet he remembers Shannon, who he met back then.
Also he still has to be related to Kinzou, so he is one of the 5 siblings child.

Unfortunately hair colors in an anime are usually just a hint for personalities, especially if the character is japanese, so I can't go out and say Rosa would be the most reasonable person now(Supporting the Rosa had a child with one of her brothers and is thereforebeing called filthy bei Kinzou), so I have to assume that he still is Rudolfs son for now.

Shannon and Kannon sure are suspicious, and up to a certain point Shannon even was my prime suspect simpyl due to the fact that she has a tatooed wing instead a sewed on her clothes.
The only other person having a tatooed wing on her thigh is Beatrice herself. So she probably is a relative of the Beatrice that died back then, maybe a grandchild or something like that.

But for now thats not enough of a motive to convince me that she would kill Chiyo George and Battler.

[UsagiTenpura]

Ange: The Ushiromiya Ange of a world where no one comes home...!!
Doesn't that contradict that Eva came home in Ange's future?
Seems to contradict that the future is true ^^.

Meta-Beato: Ushiromiya Battler. I will now...kill you.
Meta character predicting an event that has yet to occur with certainty in red.

Meta-Beato: Due to your sin, a great many humans on this island die. No one escapes, all die.
Proof that the culprit never survives.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Kitsu

We don't have a reason to believe that?
In episode 1 after dying it almost got shoved down our throaths that he most likely didn't die and was still alive and kicking. There was no red here so you might want to count this one out.
In episode 2 he appears after dying, two times to be exact.
In episode 3 he appears after dying.
In episode 4 he seems to finally die without coming back.
In episode 5 his death wasn't shown
In episode 6 after dying in the duel and dissappearing/dying in the room with Krauss etc he appears later and rescues Battler. (A spirit form was shown before that)
So we don't have any reason to believe that Kanon has some sort of hax to live after being declared dead? Just because you don't believe in Shkanon doesn't mean you have no reason. The reason is there right in the game. See moogleking does have a reason to doubt Kanon's live death status.
Recently it seems every Umineko dicussion here is getting personal and people are basically just attacking each other.

Only one of those was a case of him being declared dead and physically appearing as a phantom later.

The latter cases either explicitly mention that he's a ghost of Kanon at the time (which also appears in episode 2 before Zombie Kanon BTW) he was dead the whole time, or he was never declared dead in the first place.

[Kitsu]

Only one of those was a case of him being declared dead and physically appearing as a phantom later.

The latter cases either explicitly mention that he's a ghost of Kanon (which also appears in episode 2 BTW) or he was never declared dead in the first place.

This is of course truth but for me this seems enough to consider the possibility that Kanon has some hax to appear after his death. Especially since I don't recall any other character doing something similair not even in a ghost form let alone interact with people who have not died yet (just to make the difference between GhostKanon in episode 3 and Jessica/Kanon spirits in Episode 2). If you don't to consider it after reading my previous post and just don't want to consider it...it's your loss but I don't think you have the right to say that there is no reason to believe such a thing. Magic might be a illusion but Beatrice wanted to see Battler the truth it would be stupid of her to include all of this if it didn't carry any meaning. What this meaning is...is something we do not know therefore we can speculate it.

[Moogleking]

Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura

Ange: The Ushiromiya Ange of a world where no one comes home...!!
Doesn't that contradict that Eva came home in Ange's future?
Seems to contradict that the future is true ^^.

Meta-Beato: Ushiromiya Battler. I will now...kill you.
Meta character predicting an event that has yet to occur with certainty in red.

Meta-Beato: Due to your sin, a great many humans on this island die. No one escapes, all die.
Proof that the culprit never survives.

Indeed, that does point to the future not being true. Especially when combined with your last line there. As I said before, the future isn't so much a deception as it is giving us hints and motives.

Beatrice can probably say that in red because it is at the point where there is no way Battler can escape the bomb.

Originally Posted by Judoh

Only one of those was a case of him being declared dead and physically appearing as a phantom later.

The latter cases either explicitly mention that he's a ghost of Kanon at the time (which also appears in episode 2 before Zombie Kanon BTW) he was dead the whole time, or he was never declared dead in the first place.

If you take all of the scenes to be false, sure you can just say they never happened, but the evidence is still there.