Umineko no Naku Koro ni - Episode 26 Discussion / Poll

[Mercurius]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

I'm sorry to you people who rated this highly, but what Deen did in this episode is outrageously sloppy. I lack the words to properly describe it.

Spoiler for just the most important part of the series:

The toughest riddle that we've seen, and the final one "solved" in the question arcs...is Nanjo's death in Episode 3. Here is Battler's solution for it in episode 26 (more or less):


In the anime version, the only death Eva Beatrice ever confirms is Nanjo's.

But it's even worse. For some, unexplainable reason, the anime shows the victims of EP3's first twilight in the background here. Fortunately for Deen, only the VN version confirmed these deaths in red in the beginning of the game, so these are still suspects with the Anime's red text.

However, in that same episode 18, Deen had Beato saying "I've already confirmed their deaths with the red" even though she never actually did. So which is the mistake?

Spoiler for but wait, there's more:

Just that one huge error would be bad enough, but they do the same thing TWO MORE TIMES in this episode.

Ange, from the first part of episode 26:

If you've been paying attention, you probably remember that Beatrice never said a single word of red text in episode 24. None of these red truths were said by anyone, ever...in the anime.

Spoiler for EP5 but not a spoiler:

I was seriously annoyed that Beato used only one red text in the entire episode. I mean, come on. She's barely fighting back at all. True, even the VN didn't have her fighting totally seriously, but nothing at all?

And on top of that, because she didn't say one particular line, it is now impossible for Deen to adapt EP5 correctly. I won't go into detail here, but those who have read EP5 probably know what I mean.

This proves that Ryuukishi wasn't overseeing this episode, or if he was, it proves that they didn't listen to him.

Given how much the anime was deviating from the VN, I never really cared whether the anime was being consistent with itself.

For the episode itself:

Spoiler for Episode 26:

Pretty much another quality roller coaster, much like the rest of the season.
1. The first scene with Ange and Maria gave me hope for a miracle. Production values!
2. In the VN, I thought Ange's use of Red was probably the most emotional moment of the Episode. Her death in the anime was almost completely void of emotion. The fact that she just disappeared didn't help either.
3. The garden used for the last battle could have been much more epic. Not sure why they didn't just reuse the background from the beginning of the episode.
4. Even the fan made version kept the part where Beatrice kept her left arm up. And what's up with the amount of blood Beatrice coughed up. Again, another death's epic-ness ruined by nonsensical decisions.
5. I would have totally forgiven DEEN for everything if they had kept Battler's last bit of narration, which was one of the chilling lines of the VN.
6. God, that ED song is annoying...
6. ??? chapter was kept rather in tact. I like how the anime just panned out of Bern and Lambda giggling softly.

Pretty much like the majority of the episodes of the anime, I felt this one missed the point of the scenes it showed. The execution animation-wise was somewhat better, probably because DEEN threw whatever minuscule budget they had left into this episode.

My biggest hope for the anime was that enough details would kept in tact so that the anime would have made some contribution to the discussion of the Legend of the Rokkenjima Serial Murders. Unfortunately, instead of the new perspective on the story, the anime failed to keep up with even the most basic of components of the story. It appears imho that the staff that worked on this show did not care much for the original VN at all. It really seems that the goal was to sell DVDs of a mediocre anime using the Umineko brand, a plan that has ultimately back-fired. It's hard to sell something which made not even a tremor of emotional impact on its viewers, when the same story told with just text and sprites brought many of us to tears and the edge of our seats.

[chounokoe]

Originally Posted by Kite22

Don't try and place crap on the sound novel as a way to defend a terrible anime

Well to be honest, I found the hugging in the VN quite forced and was left with a mighty bitter taste...hadn't it been for the ???? part I would have been quite dissappointed with Episode 4.
Honestly, 3 9/10 Episodes they were at each others throats and suddenly they hug?! Unless there is a reasonable explenation I will never like that part...so yeah I liked the depiction of the anime more.

Originally Posted by Klashikari

Again, the purpose of an adaptation is to allow the watchers to discover a franchise with another format. By this, why would they have to go back to the source material if they aren't pleased?
Do they suddenly lose their right to criticize something they didn't like? So suddenly, if you didn't read the VN beforehand, it becomes rightful to criticize? I seriously wonder what is this kind of reasoning here.
So long it isn't a plain and silly bash (which still happens mind you), anyone has as much right to praise or rant about a series, regardless if they know about it or not.

Of course everyone is able to voice their opinion, but I think the biggest problem for people who are defending the anime is, that most of the time reasonable points are watered down by the fact that everyone has to repeat again and again how it is Deens fault, how they are crap, how they should go to hell, yadda yadda yadda.
It seems like people don't even try to work out their points, they just want to bash and that kills the whole discussion from the start for most people.

It's everyone's individual choice to like or dislike the anime, but just uttering hate paroles isn't really furthering a good climate.
Ah well, it's over now and I think most of you won't follow a 2nd season anyway, because the first one was so bad...unless you feel compelled to watch it because of a higher reason.

As you can expect, there are a lot of shades of grey in the reception over there, so the whole "they did like the adaptation" looks like a totally random claim to me.

And of course not everybody liked the anime over there, that's pretty much impossible. I for example didn't like Haruhi and felt pretty much alone with this, but that's another story.
But in the end I always felt that comments about the anime from Japan were somewhat more elaborated, reflecting a bit more on the whole topic...except the usual 2chan shouts.
Still I have yet to see a place where the majority of Japanese viewers hated the adaption...much of the stuff I read was at least accepting it was an adaption...

Like you said, there are a lot of shades of grey, but somehow I find the darkest ones around here.

[Used Can]

It also annoyed me they replaced the hentai scene with that stupid dragon.

[Impossible]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

Do you honestly think the adaptation was primarly done for non VN reader? That is totally nonsense, considering how many fanservice detail were put that are totally obscure to the non vn watcher (virgilia's "gapgapgap" is the prime example of this).

That's not the whole issue of its quality as an adaptation, though... a successful adaptation can be viewed, enjoyed and understood completely on its own. This anime doesn't do that. It completely fails as a standalone work. The characters are one-dimensional, the story is incoherent and self-contradictory (especially due to the lack of information and red text), the mystery is a joke, and so much is missing that it's practically impossible to complete the story from this point.

An adaptation should not require its source material just to be understandable. It's a terrible adaptation because it pretty much fails in every single area on its own merits (or lack thereof), with its redeeming qualities simply being whatever it could keep remotely similar to the VN.

[StainGlass]

Spoiler for episode review:

It was better than I expected since I was prepared for anything to be cut. It can't compare to the VN but I enjoyed it.

Still, I didn't like how Ange just disappeared. How are they going to make hamburgers now?
Music in that scene was lacking too, I actually liked Dir in the VN, but I didn't expect them to use it anyway, it probably wouldn't even fit.

No dreamenddischarger though? I was really expecting that one, oh well.
For the battle, obviously very thinned but:
- Kinzo dragon looked and was really bizarre
+ Small bombs
+ Glad the violence was kept, but Beatrice sure has a lot of blood

??? lacked red, but again, I didn't even expect it.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by chounokoe

Of course everyone is able to voice their opinion, but I think the biggest problem for people who are defending the anime is, that most of the time reasonable points are watered down by the fact that everyone has to repeat again and again how it is Deens fault, how they are crap, how they should go to hell, yadda yadda yadda.
It seems like people don't even try to work out their points, they just want to bash and that kills the whole discussion from the start for most people.

It's everyone's individual choice to like or dislike the anime, but just uttering hate paroles isn't really furthering a good climate.

While there is a very tiring trend in the hate comments, I think what makes it worse is how "both sides" are bikering to each other.
I believe that there is a balance at stake here, but heh.

Ah well, it's over now and I think most of you won't follow a 2nd season anyway, because the first one was so bad...unless you feel compelled to watch it because of a higher reason.

"you" huh... I was utterly disappointed, and I can't call it "good adaptation", but I've seen really "bad anime series" (if you are including me, that is).
That said, I won't bet anything on "will/will not watch" thing, as you can expect that driving reason to see "their favorite story animated", which, regardless how good or bad it is, will attract curiosity.

Originally Posted by Impossible

That's not the whole issue of its quality as an adaptation, though... a successful adaptation can be viewed, enjoyed and understood completely on its own. This anime doesn't do that. It completely fails as a standalone work. The characters are one-dimensional, the story is incoherent and self-contradictory (especially due to the lack of information and red text), the mystery is a joke, and so much is missing that it's practically impossible to complete the story from this point.

An adaptation should not require its source material just to be understandable. It's a terrible adaptation because it pretty much fails in every single area on its own merits (or lack thereof), with its redeeming qualities simply being whatever it could keep remotely similar to the VN.

That was actually my point: I didn't mention "any adaptation" as a whole, but Umineko's.
For obvious reason, an adaptation is indeed considered good if it does deliver the essence of the original material without the said material at hand to anyone, anime only watchers or not.
The point with Umineko is how it is missing critical points as noted. And because of the fanservice points that make only sense to VN reader, I really think the series makes sense only to the VN readers.

I really doubt any non VN reader can have the same interpretation and concept of the story if it wasn't for the comparison and all "extra" from the vn readers.

[Rena Ryuuguu]

ok so here is my statemant and rating for the episode.
I vote 4 why? because this episode was epic fail , many parts made no sense at all.
as for ange?
I put this in a spoiler because there might be spoiler

Spoiler for why?:

why did she disappear but blooded before?? come on I mean her death made me cry in the novel but in the anime it was just like, "woooow so she finally woke up from the dream???!" and also the missed hug scene this is more then worst! It was the last ep,. of season one so why didn't they just keep that one original at last?. i don't get it! I hated the remixes right from the start so I don't need to say that I'm always disappointed about the bgm's in the anime. and also for trollkastel no comment to that one, expect DEEN fails! I really can't understand why they fail so much at Umineko? I mean they did an awesome work on higurashi rei. so how can they fail so much at another story made by our game god Ryukishi-sama? And the image in the end "see you again" Oh goooooooood, noooooooooooooo please if so then not by DEEN!!! I just wish some other animation studio would re do Umineko again it's not only impossible if I remember right then also Negima was re made and it was much better then the first animation...my my DEEN, why don't you just give up and ........? I really wish everyone would just read the Novel they are so much better! I'm so disappointed I waited for the Umineko Anime over 2years and now where it finally was aired it's such a fail

[Christen]

Gave a 6. Low for a last episode because honestly, I've already watered down my expectations but it failed to deliver very important key points.

-1 for no dreamenddischarger

[AmyElizzabeth]

Originally Posted by Christen

-1 for no dreamenddischarger

They don't HAVE to keep the original music, you know.

[Arachanox]

I'd accept Dreamenddischarger for the final scene if I had to lose Fake Red Shoes for the Virgilia/Beatrice battle in EP3.

[Ace of Dragons]

Originally Posted by AmyElizzabeth

They don't HAVE to keep the original music, you know.

It'd suit the atmosphere a lot better than Goldenslaughterer.

[Kitsu]

It'd suit the atmosphere a lot better than Goldenslaughterer.

HM, I know I will get beaten for it but...I though goldenslaughterer fitted more especially during Kinzo Dragon.

[KanonTheFurniture]

Originally Posted by StainGlass

+ Glad the violence was kept, but Beatrice sure has a lot of blood

My thoughts exactly. It seems every time she steps up to a 'fight' situation (vs. Virgilia, vs. Eva-Beatrice and now vs. Battler), when that woman bleeds, she bleeeeeeeeeeds.

Originally Posted by Klashikari

I really doubt any non VN reader can have the same interpretation and concept of the story if it wasn't for the comparison and all "extra" from the vn readers.

I feel the same way, in fact I mentioned a similar thing in the episode 25 thread. I see it around here an awful lot, between the people always asking the same questions ("OMG this Battler kid is so stupid how can he deny witches if he's fighting one?!") and then seeing people who are Anime-only viewers who 'know' things in advance because they've been in the game threads and have been spoiled, or have found out about scenes the Anime omitted. I think the mark of how well this series has done - as a standalone AND as an adaptation - is to ask yourself if an Anime-only viewer would be able to understand what's going on in this series without the aid of VN players and spoilers on this forum and elsewhere on the 'net. And from what I've seen, that's not the case...Anime viewers are always asking for clarification on things that DEEN screwed up due to poor direction, or are finding out spoilers for scenes because they're constantly hearing VN players bitch about this and that.

This forum isn't exactly always friendly in either camp (VN players can be too rough on Anime viewers, but Anime viewers can also be a bit rude with the whole 'oh God get over yourselves it's not that bad' routine), but it paints a pretty interesting picture when you think about it. Take another fairly recent and popular adaptation for comparison - Death Note. A lot of people had already read and loved the Manga and were excited to see this adaptation. Most people enjoyed the first half, but after one of the major characters died (OMG SPOILERS seriously though if you don't know that already GTFO the internet) the camps split - those who continued to enjoy the Anime, even through the radically-changed ending, because it was good on its own merits, and those who started raging because of how much they had to rush through the second arc and change things around...especially the ending. But in the end, Death Note is a series that you can enjoy even if you've never seen the source material. You don't need to know that the Manga ends differently and sends a different message, especially with the epilogue. You can still enjoy the Anime on its own merits, as the story was still faithful to the source material in the end, and had the right emotion in the right places.

Hell, even the movies, which are drastically different from the Anime and Manga, manage to be nice adaptations based on the series and the characters. They're enjoyable whether you're a fan of the source material or not. Umineko is not this - it somehow situated itself between 'you have to know the source to understand this' and 'if you're a fan of the source why are you watching this when we're ruining so much for you?'. In that respect, whether some of its audience (new to the franchise or fans of the source) have enjoyed it, it has still failed at being a good series or adaptation. Is there worse? Oh, much. But that doesn't mean Umineko is good. Can you still enjoy it? Sure. Is it horrible? No. But it's mediocre at best. And I think that's the heart of the problem here...especially when trying to measure up to such an in-depth and emotional series, DEEN's attempt to mimic their Higurashi success just falls flat in almost every way. Call it my opinion if you like, but I think a lot of it stands.

Originally Posted by AmyElizzabeth

They don't HAVE to keep the original music, you know.

When it's DreamEndDischarger? Yes. Yes they do.

[Marion]

Spoiler for Review time!:

General:
Pacing - So glad they decided to take out the OP to give more time. Would have liked the ED cut out too, but I won't complain (too much)
Music - Endless Nine, but what happened to DreamDischarger. See I don't understand this - why did Deen even bother making remixes like Mortal Stampede and DreamDischarger but not even use them once in the anime. It makes no sense at all. You have all these good tracks to use, but you don't use them. Why use Golden Slaughter, which is a track to be used for scary horrifying discovery moments and not blood pumping music that is meant to be used during awesome moments or discussions. And the return of core. Ugh.

On the plus side - Thank You for Being Born.
VA's - Generally good. Ohara was fantastic, but something seems a bit...lacking with the final scene. Maybe it's just the way the scene itself was directed (which I will talk about later)
Art - More blood fountains. They seem to love that. But why were the blue stakes so dark looking. They're suppose to glow. If they can't do that then at least make them look more blue Also Kinzo dragon looked...kinda weird.

*insert obligatory ange got her period joke here*

I did like the bedroom scene with Bern and Lambda though.

Pros lol this episode had pros
-Most of the discussion was kept. Including the best theory ever (small bombs) and Kinzo dragon (although the dragon itself looked weird)
-Watashi wa.. daare?...;_;

Cons lol this episode wasn't just one big giant con
-The entire investigation scene was eliminated. The big problem with cutting it is that we don't learn either the fate of Maria or Battler, along with other crucial info (Jessica knowing George was dead, Kanon MIA, etc)
-Where the hell is the blue and red text. Seriously DEEN did you blow your budget so much you can't even make blue and red text anymore? Anime viewers will be confused because nothing Beato says is in red - which means everything she was suppose to say in red is no longer credible. I hope gg or any sub group for that matter understands they were speaking in blue and red despite the missing text, but if they don't realize it I can hardly blame them.
-Where is my delicious lesbian troll? The entire point of that was to show once and for all:

1) Bern is evil and doesn't care about Battler, Ange or anything besides winning in general (I know people will disagree with me on this stance but that's just how I see it)
2) That Beato didn't try to win and just was fine with dying (hence why she didn't deny Battler's theories at all, but Lambda said she easily could have)

But that impact was cut up basically - Lambda used no red and Bern wasn't even shown with a troll face. Why not just animate it with them on the bed laughing instead of us seeing their feet. I mean really.
-Okay forget about the hug being cut out for now: I wanted to see it to but I think I'll live. Let's talk about Battler's characterization in this episode.

1) He didn't seem to cry AT ALL when Ange was dying or after she died. He was raging and crying the entire time and that wasn't even shown. Yes he's angry at Beato but at least make him cry a little. Or are tear drops beyond the budget as well?
2) He showed zero sympathy for Beato. In the game he was clearly sympathetic and wanted Beato to have a good resolution. If he didn't then he would have just tore Beato up before she put in the final riddle and go back home. In this episode however he was simply hateful. No remorse, no sympathy, no nothing. Battler is not a rage filled machine DEEN. He has a sense of humor. He does care for Beato on some level (and this is coming from a person who does not ship BatBeato, before everyone cries shipper) and he can feel sympathy.

I won't blame Daisuke Ono - he's only the VA. He's told how to voice the character and that's that. If someone told him to sound kinder then he would have. But they (Chikai Kon to be precise) didn't.

-And about that final riddle. Why was it not in red. Going back to eliminating red, as I already said: everything that Beato said (besides saying Kinzo was dead before the game began) is not credible unless it is in red. Okay the sound was there but still. At least make the world turn blue or red if you have to exclude the text. Or is coloring the screen red and giving it a lighter opacity on photoshop not in the budget either? ಠ_ಠ

Overall:

One of the most disappointing and worst episodes and this is suppose to be the finale. Are you kidding me. See if last episode they just cut up some chunks of the Kasumi attack scene then this episode would have been far better. But no. They had to waste half an episode on what should have happened in episode 25, which ended up cutting the discussion and removing an entire investigation scene.

I have no words. This episode will get either a 3, 4 or a 5. A 6 if I feel generous. I thought episode 24 was horrible but good grief this was just bad.

Originally Posted by AmyElizzabeth

They don't HAVE to keep the original music, you know.

They don't have to but they should AT LEAST put a better track than Golden Slaughter, which does not fit the mood. I wouldn't have minded Dread of the Grave either, but that track only played once in the entire anime.

[momobunny]

Originally Posted by AmyElizzabeth

They don't HAVE to keep the original music, you know.

The problem isn't just that they didn't include it... but that they had an arranged version of it but decided to ignore it. Same goes for Mortal Stampede... why did they let these tracks go to waste? @___@;

I personally found Goldenslaughter to be completely out of place. It's not like it upsets me... it just made the scene feel very awkward for me is all. Also I hate that they just wasted an awesome song like that. They may as well not even have rearranged it, then at least we wouldn't have gotten our hopes up for it to be included.

But oh well, I'm going to wait for the subbed version to rate this episode. So far it rates as a 7 in my eyes.

[MeoTwister5]

Considering the hole that DEEN dug themselves with episode 25, this was surprisingly excellent, relatively speaking of course, DESPITE the absence of DreamEndDischarger. They cut out what I expected them to cut out and managed to pace it well enough.

(Actually I played Red Rose's DED version while the final duel was playing)

Again, despite the fact that DED was absent, the R/B duel between Battler and Beato was EXCELLENT if with lots of cuts. I mean cmon at least they let Beato get her impalement. Plus points for that.

On the other hand, no hug. At least we got the SMILE. Likewise no ??? teaparty, which could only mean two things:

1. Since it leads to the next volume, perhaps by omitting it thet have no plans of making the next season?
2. A possible stand-alone mini-episode or the lead-in to next season?

I'm not going to comment much anymore before other VN players lynch me for liking this episode. A 7/10 for a finale.

[Majo]

Umineko anime never existed for me... I don't even want Chiru to be animated now.

[Baru]

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

Likewise no ??? teaparty, which could only mean two things:

1. Since it leads to the next volume, perhaps by omitting it thet have no plans of making the next season?
2. A possible stand-alone mini-episode or the lead-in to next season?

???? was after the ending credits

[immblueversion]

Originally Posted by Majo

Umineko anime never existed for me... I don't even want Chiru to be animated now.

And yet I still expect it to be done sooner or later, one way or another, because I myself am perpetually aware that what I watch can never be unwatched.

[USCPharmacist]

One word.

PHAIL.

Anyway, it's finally over, I really hope they change the company for Chiru. This is just like Leekgima, Phail Stay/Night, and Turkeyhandle. Please rescue them, someone, Shaft, Ufotable...anyone other than Deen and Xebec..

BTW, what's Deen problem with dragon, it didn't work in Phail Stay/Night, and it definitely didn't work here. Jebus!