[Manga] Who is Tobi?

[xKeir]

Kakashi & Gai were there because they didn't get much screen-time [or manga 'show-time'] in the war ...

Aren't u guys over-reading it?

Gai was critically injured before the war even began so he didn't really help much. They only showed Kakashi fighting Zabuza & Haku and thats it. They didn't show the defeat of the rest of the 7 swords men -.-

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by xKeir

Kakashi & Gai were there because they didn't get much screen-time [or manga 'show-time'] in the war ...

same could be said about his presence on the ship headed to the hidden island. he hadn't had much screen time prior to that, but then he was used in a big way to have his long awaited final match with kisame

Aren't u guys over-reading it?

maybe but kishi tends to plan his battle opponents out to maximize plot and character development

[xKeir]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

same could be said about his presence on the ship headed to the hidden island. he hadn't had much screen time prior to that, but then he was used in a big way to have his long awaited final match with kisame

maybe but kishi tends to plan his battle opponents out to maximize plot and character development

okay i see. i just read your previous post [ the last post on the previous page ] about Gai's fight with Kisame and i can see where your coming from. Makes great sense actually now that you've broken it down for me to see it clearly . I'm too slow to follow on such stuff so thanks

I was just thinking. If , assuming Tobi is Obito. Would Tobi's Mangekyou Sharingan have the same pattern as Kakashi's? I mean. Since they're from the same pair of eyes than bam their mangekyou patterns should be the same regardless of when/how their activated. If they're the same than yay Obito is Tobi.

I asked cuz i realize Tobi hasn't used his Mangekyou sharingan even once.

But this is all , of cuz provided that the other eye of Obito isn't crushed by that big rock which technically speaking is impossible but since we're talking about Naruto/anime anything's possible.

Just a random thought if we assume tobi is obito. Cuz following what ya'll say .. i feel its a lil pointless to have Kakashi appear just to say
'Oh my god its Obito! I know cuz i'm the only one who have personally seen you!'
and there's just got to be something to connect them. They didn't show how Kakashi got his mangekyou sharingan so ...

what are the chances?

yeah. i know. i think im really not starting to make any sense. This guessing game is too much for a simpleton for me to guess correctly ~.~

But i really think its interesting to see everyone's different opinions. And thats also one of the good things about discussing. Getting to see what you failed to see from another's perspective.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by xKeir

I was just thinking. If , assuming Tobi is Obito. Would Tobi's Mangekyou Sharingan have the same pattern as Kakashi's? I mean. Since they're from the same pair of eyes than bam their mangekyou patterns should be the same regardless of when/how their activated. If they're the same than yay Obito is Tobi.

they would not necessarily be the same patterns. when uchiha transplant their eyes the pattern changes like in sasuke's eyes. so, the new pattern of obito's eyes may be different for tobi and kakashi if the pattern is dictated by the person who receives the eye. edit: but as you say kishi has left the door open for them to be the same when tobi's MS is finally revealed

Just a random thought if we assume tobi is obito. Cuz following what ya'll say .. i feel its a lil pointless to have Kakashi appear just to say
'Oh my god its Obito! I know cuz i'm the only one who have personally seen you!'
and there's just got to be something to connect them. They didn't show how Kakashi got his mangekyou sharingan so ...

theoretically, gai should have known obito as well. I actually would love to see a back story with a younger gai which this whole tobi/obito revelation would no doubt cause to happen

what are the chances?

pretty good in the narutoverse

But i really think its interesting to see everyone's different opinions. And thats also one of the good things about discussing. Getting to see what you failed to see from another's perspective.

yea I have a lot of fun arguing the obito theory I'm prepared to go down with the ship if I'm wrong lolz

[xKeir]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

theoretically, gai should have known obito as well. I actually would love to see a back story with a younger gai which this whole tobi/obito revelation would no doubt cause to happen

Spoiler for Spoiler for Shippuden Movie . Well. U nvr know who may not have watched it yet :3 just to be safe.:

I forgot the exact title of the Movie but its the one where Naruto went back in time and met his dad.
Anyway ..
Yeah! I think it was only in the Shippuden Movie that we got to see a younger version of the Jonin's. It was only a 2min+ scene on the day Ichiraku Ramen had its opening and Kurenai , Asuma & Gai were queuing up. Minato called Kakashi up for the mission and i remember one of the 3 remarking how Kakashi was a arrogant jerk when he down right rejected their offer to eat with them at Ichiraku.

That was probably the only scene we got to see of the young jonin's .. ?

In the movie Kakashi hadn't gotten his Sharingan yet so yeah your right! Gai should have known Obito as well!

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by xKeir

Spoiler for Spoiler for Shippuden Movie . Well. U nvr know who may not have watched it yet :3 just to be safe.:

I forgot the exact title of the Movie but its the one where Naruto went back in time and met his dad.
Anyway ..
Yeah! I think it was only in the Shippuden Movie that we got to see a younger version of the Jonin's. It was only a 2min+ scene on the day Ichiraku Ramen had its opening and Kurenai , Asuma & Gai were queuing up. Minato called Kakashi up for the mission and i remember one of the 3 remarking how Kakashi was a arrogant jerk when he down right rejected their offer to eat with them at Ichiraku.

That was probably the only scene we got to see of the young jonin's .. ?

In the movie Kakashi hadn't gotten his Sharingan yet so yeah your right! Gai should have known Obito as well!

haha that sounds good. I usually dont watch the movies or fillers, but I'll probably try to check that out just to see it.

[itachi-san314]

so another thing that comes to mind about the obito theory is when tobi last saw kakashi (after the danzo fight). he knew all about kakashi's MS dimensional tech. and told him not to use it since it wouldn't work on him. granted deidara could have told him, but the deidara fight happened before he even knew tobi so the timing and deidara's jerkish personality both tend to suggest that he wouldn't have done so. again just speculation but food for thought perhaps

[Artimus_Prime]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

yea I have a lot of fun arguing the obito theory I'm prepared to go down with the ship if I'm wrong lolz

here here.

the fact that coincidences/parallels can even be made between tobi and obito is significant in of itself. as mentioned on this forum:
1. tobi knowing the jutsu before kakashi uses it
2. kakashi showing up on the battlefield with naruto and tobi
3. and even the timing of the gaiden arc that is promptly followed by kakashi mangekyou reveal and tobi's introduction

among other things, all lend themselves to the possibility. like itachi-san314, im prepared to go down with the ship if wrong.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Artimus_Prime

here here.

the fact that coincidences/parallels can even be made between tobi and obito is significant in of itself. as mentioned on this forum:
1. tobi knowing the jutsu before kakashi uses it
2. kakashi showing up on the battlefield with naruto and tobi
3. and even the timing of the gaiden arc that is promptly followed by kakashi mangekyou reveal and tobi's introduction

among other things, all lend themselves to the possibility. like itachi-san314, im prepared to go down with the ship if wrong.

well please let me add to your list just to put it all in one post =)

4. eye placement of tobi and kakashi
5. tobi's right arm is synthetic as seen in his fight with fuu and torune. same side of obito that was crushed
6. tobi's body is entirely covered to possibly hide any damage/repairs
7. their names are near anagrams
8. kakashi and tobi have now met 4 times (at least. I may be missing 1)
9. tobi went out of his way to reveal to kakashi that he had a sharingan when they first met.
10. they have the same sharingan dimensional technique
11. tobi wants to 'become complete' possibly eluding to needing his old madara body
12. madara developed rinnegan before he died so obito's body dying is no problem
13. madara seems to have MPD or at least a very playful side which echoes obito's personality of not taking things seriously. he also has 2 different voices
14. obito's eyes proved to be very valuable as MS capable so he would make an ideal body to use in this interim period between madara's death and his ET resurrection
15. just thought of this one, but people may ask 'why would madara wait to reunite with his body?' for one, he was going to use pain to do it, but then couldn't. we dont know if he knows ET but probably not. also, he was so surprised when kabuto showed it to him in the first place and asked 'where did you get that?' so even if he knows ET or could have used orochimaru to do it, he possibly didnt even know where his own body was buried

[Girin]

I really doubt Tobi is Obito. For one, there's the massive age difference. If he really was Obito, he'd be around the same age as Kakashi, meaning he wouldn't have all of those wrinkles around his face. Going back to the age difference, Obito would have been much too young to know how to control the nine tailed fox when Tobi used it to attack the Leaf.



That image is from chapter 503.

Also, about 8 years after this attack, Tobi took control of the fourth mizukage,(and also met Kisame, who was one of the few who knew that he was controlling the mizukage) something I highly doubt Obito would have been capable of doing. Tobi also revealed his identity to Kisame in one of the later chapters (though I can't remember which one), and Kisame replied saying something along the lines of "I'm glad someone like you is in charge."

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Girin

I really doubt Tobi is Obito. For one, there's the massive age difference. If he really was Obito, he'd be around the same age as Kakashi, meaning he wouldn't have all of those wrinkles around his face. Going back to the age difference, Obito would have been much too young to know how to control the nine tailed fox when Tobi used it to attack the Leaf.

Also, about 8 years after this attack, Tobi took control of the fourth mizukage,(and also met Kisame, who was one of the few who knew that he was controlling the mizukage) something I highly doubt Obito would have been capable of doing. Tobi also revealed his identity to Kisame in one of the later chapters (though I can't remember which one), and Kisame replied saying something along the lines of "I'm glad someone like you is in charge."

well the theory states that it's just obito's body. madara's mind would know how to do all those things.

the wrinkles dont necessarily imply old age. if that were the case then he would have grey hair by now. just look at how sarutobi looked when he died and he was younger than madara.

[Girin]

Obito died at a young age, and there wouldn't be a reason to use such a damaged body when there are so many other alternatives. There's also the difference in height, and dead bodies can't grow. =p

[Hiking_Bear]

Originally Posted by Girin

Obito died at a young age, and there wouldn't be a reason to use such a damaged body when there are so many other alternatives. There's also the difference in height, and dead bodies can't grow. =p

Check out the timeline:

Obito would have been a newborn when Madara died. This would be the time when Madara sealed his chakra and memories inside Obito - the chakra could have been triggered to unlock when Obito acheived 3 tomoe Sharingan.

So, we don't have to worry anymore about why Madara would choose a damaged body, because the time that Madara would have selected Obito would have been before it was ever damaged.

[Akashin]

Originally Posted by Hiking_Bear

Check out the timeline: ~picture~

Obito would have been a newborn when Madara died. This would be the time when Madara sealed his chakra and memories inside Obito - the chakra could have been triggered to unlock when Obito acheived 3 tomoe Sharingan.

So, we don't have to worry anymore about why Madara would choose a damaged body, because the time that Madara would have selected Obito would have been before it was ever damaged.

Ignoring the fact that, last I checked, we have no clue when Madara died (we don't, do we?), what I'm really having trouble grasping is where this theory is coming from. Am I forgetting some huge canonical evidence for Madara being capable of sending his spirit body hopping? 'Cause unless I am, this all just sounds like a wild (though technically not impossible) theory with an unusually large amount of support.

Seriously, I'd like some clarification on that.

[itachi-san314]

what is that timeline? it's so random... my first thought was what akashin said about madara's death. that is definitely not answered yet.

also about the madara tech for body hopping, I'm sure he has plenty of techs we have yet to see. whether this is one of them remains to be seen, but keep in mind that nagato was able to mentally exist inside corpses by means of the rinnegan which madara had as well. its not that farfetched considering the wide range of doujustu rinnegan allows

[Akashin]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

what is that timeline? it's so random... my first thought was what akashin said about madara's death. that is definitely not answered yet.

also about the madara tech for body hopping, I'm sure he has plenty of techs we have yet to see. whether this is one of them remains to be seen, but keep in mind that nagato was able to mentally exist inside corpses by means of the rinnegan which madara had as well. its not that farfetched considering the wide range of doujustu rinnegan allows

Well, that was a totally different thing. Nagato wasn't projecting his spirit into other bodies or anything; he was just mentally taking control of inanimate bodies, not unlike Sasori controlling puppets as far as I can tell. That said, I suppose the Rinnegan being capable of that much does set some vague sort of precedent for him being capable of body hopping. I'm just extremely leery about establishing a theory around a power that Madara "may or may not have".

I guess it's safe to say this theory has ground if indeed we learn that he can do that, though...

[Hiking_Bear]

Originally Posted by Akashin

Ignoring the fact that, last I checked, we have no clue when Madara died (we don't, do we?), what I'm really having trouble grasping is where this theory is coming from.

I spent some time researching the dates, through numbers that were given in the databook and the manga. The timeline represents dates based upon those facts. If you have questions, let me know.

For the date of Madara's death, we actually do have a pretty good idea of when that occurred. Edo-Madara said that he died shortly after awakening the Rinnegan. Furthermore, Edo-Madara knew Nagato by name and knew him when he was a 'young brat'. This is enough information to deduce the time of Madara's death.

Recall the moment when we first saw Nagato with the Rinnegan (which he received from Madara) - I estimate his age to be about 10. At his death, Nagato was approximately 40 years old. Therefore, Nagato received the Rinnegan 40-10 = 30 years ago.

Voila! Madara died around 30 years ago! There is some margin of error of like 1 or 2 years, but 30 years is definitely the correct ballpark figure.

Am I forgetting some huge canonical evidence for Madara being capable of sending his spirit body hopping? 'Cause unless I am, this all just sounds like a wild (though technically not impossible) theory with an unusually large amount of support.

Seriously, I'd like some clarification on that.

The evidence for this is indirect. It's based upon the fact that both Minato and Jiraiya deduced from Tobi's ability to summon the 9-tails that the masked man must be Madara. It's also based upon the fact that Tobi knows so much about things that only Madara should know. And lastly, it's based on the fact that Tobi conceals his face and has been calling himself Madara. All of these facts can be explained neatly if Tobi is a being that is possessed by Madara's mind and contains a portion of his chakra. We know of no other ninja that could control the Kyuubi Kurama (as Tobi did) with a Sharingan. Therefore, it leads us to deduce that Madara's chakra and knowledge were indeed involved. To say otherwise, would be to say that both Minato and Jiariya were flat out wrong. And I don't believe that is the case.

Another reason to believe that Madara transferred a portion of his chakra is that he needed someone to carry out his Moon's Eye Plan. Since Madara was dying, he would have needed someone to carry out his plan faithfully and with the right intent. What better way than to create a sort of duplicate Madara in a temporary body? It just makes sense.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Akashin

Well, that was a totally different thing. Nagato wasn't projecting his spirit into other bodies or anything; he was just mentally taking control of inanimate bodies, not unlike Sasori controlling puppets as far as I can tell.

it's very unlike sasori imo. puppetmaster tech uses chakra strings and the user has to be relatively close to the puppets. also, he did not speak through them or inject his mental being into them in any way. i see much more of a similarity between nagato and this theory I'm proposing. especially with the additional knowledge that rinnegan has control over life and death essentially. we've already seen that madara was better than nagato at the moon/meteor tech. so I'm assuming that he's just better on a few more levels as well. nagato was a genius, but madara seems to be a genius among geniuses.

That said, I suppose the Rinnegan being capable of that much does set some vague sort of precedent for him being capable of body hopping. I'm just extremely leery about establishing a theory around a power that Madara "may or may not have".

that's all I'm saying. it can't be proven. just a theory about possible future events which is based in some fact.

Originally Posted by Hiking_Bear

I spent some time researching the dates, through numbers that were given in the databook and the manga. The timeline represents dates based upon those facts. If you have questions, let me know.

For the date of Madara's death, we actually do have a pretty good idea of when that occurred. Edo-Madara said that he died shortly after awakening the Rinnegan. Furthermore, Edo-Madara knew Nagato by name and knew him when he was a 'young brat'. This is enough information to deduce the time of Madara's death. Recall the moment when we first saw Nagato with the Rinnegan (which he received from Madara) - I estimate his age to be about 10. At his death, Nagato was approximately 40 years old. Therefore, Nagato received the Rinnegan 40-10 = 30 years ago.

this is interesting. very interesting. it may be the first proof against the theory. but it really all depends on madara's definition of the word 'shortly' or if he used another body in the interim between his original's death and taking over obito. as in orochimaru's tech he needed to switch every 3 years.

Voila! Madara died around 30 years ago! There is some margin of error of like 1 or 2 years, but 30 years is definitely the correct ballpark figure.
The evidence for this is indirect. It's based upon the fact that both Minato and Jiraiya deduced from Tobi's ability to summon the 9-tails that the masked man must be Madara. It's also based upon the fact that Tobi knows so much about things that only Madara should know. And lastly, it's based on the fact that Tobi conceals his face and has been calling himself Madara. All of these facts can be explained neatly if Tobi is a being that is possessed by Madara's mind and contains a portion of his chakra. We know of no other ninja that could control the Kyuubi Kurama (as Tobi did) with a Sharingan. Therefore, it leads us to deduce that Madara's chakra and knowledge were indeed involved. To say otherwise, would be to say that both Minato and Jiariya were flat out wrong. And I don't believe that is the case.

you make a good case for the time of death. as for the other stuff, it is exactly what I've been saying and is consistent with madara controlling obito's body

Another reason to believe that Madara transferred a portion of his chakra is that he needed someone to carry out his Moon's Eye Plan. Since Madara was dying, he would have needed someone to carry out his plan faithfully and with the right intent. What better way than to create a sort of duplicate Madara in a temporary body? It just makes sense.

I totally agree.

[Akashin]

Originally Posted by Hiking_Bear

I spent some time researching the dates, through numbers that were given in the databook and the manga. The timeline represents dates based upon those facts. If you have questions, let me know.

For the date of Madara's death, we actually do have a pretty good idea of when that occurred. Edo-Madara said that he died shortly after awakening the Rinnegan. Furthermore, Edo-Madara knew Nagato by name and knew him when he was a 'young brat'. This is enough information to deduce the time of Madara's death.

Recall the moment when we first saw Nagato with the Rinnegan (which he received from Madara) - I estimate his age to be about 10. At his death, Nagato was approximately 40 years old. Therefore, Nagato received the Rinnegan 40-10 = 30 years ago.

Voila! Madara died around 30 years ago! There is some margin of error of like 1 or 2 years, but 30 years is definitely the correct ballpark figure.

Fair enough. I hadn't thought that hard about it, but you do make a pretty good point.

The evidence for this is indirect. It's based upon the fact that both Minato and Jiraiya deduced from Tobi's ability to summon the 9-tails that the masked man must be Madara. It's also based upon the fact that Tobi knows so much about things that only Madara should know. And lastly, it's based on the fact that Tobi conceals his face and has been calling himself Madara. All of these facts can be explained neatly if Tobi is a being that is possessed by Madara's mind and contains a portion of his chakra. We know of no other ninja that could control the Kyuubi Kurama (as Tobi did) with a Sharingan. Therefore, it leads us to deduce that Madara's chakra and knowledge were indeed involved. To say otherwise, would be to say that both Minato and Jiariya were flat out wrong. And I don't believe that is the case.

Another reason to believe that Madara transferred a portion of his chakra is that he needed someone to carry out his Moon's Eye Plan. Since Madara was dying, he would have needed someone to carry out his plan faithfully and with the right intent. What better way than to create a sort of duplicate Madara in a temporary body? It just makes sense.

It's worth noting that all this evidence hinges upon the idea that it is absolutely impossible for anybody but Madara to have controlled the Kyuubi. That can be untrue without Minato and Jiraiya being wrong; Tobi's most defining trait is that nobody knows a thing about him. It makes perfect sense that Minato would have no knowledge of anybody but Madara being capable of summoning the Kyuubi, and by extension would assume Tobi to be Madara. None of this makes Tobi being somebody under Madara's control any more likely than Tobi being somebody extremely close to Madara, who is privy to pivotal details of Madara's life and is accurately able to assume Madara's identity.

You make a point in that all this makes the theory possible. But none of it really changes the fact that we have no way of knowing that Madara is even capable of body hopping. And until we do, Tobi being somebody really close to Madara seems more plausible almost by default, as far as I'm concerned.

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

it's very unlike sasori imo. puppetmaster tech uses chakra strings and the user has to be relatively close to the puppets. also, he did not speak through them or inject his mental being into them in any way. i see much more of a similarity between nagato and this theory I'm proposing. especially with the additional knowledge that rinnegan has control over life and death essentially. we've already seen that madara was better than nagato at the moon/meteor tech. so I'm assuming that he's just better on a few more levels as well. nagato was a genius, but madara seems to be a genius among geniuses.

Puppets and the Six Paths differ primarily in that the puppets are completely lifeless, that Nagato doesn't require strings to control the Paths (though he did require the black rods, which were similar in practice) and that Nagato can see and speak through the Six Paths. He isn't putting any part of himself into the Six Paths so much as he is controlling them with his mind (and chakra) rather than strings. I didn't say they were exactly like Sasori's puppets, but they definitely seemed puppet-like. He wasn't "mentally existing" in them; he was controlling them, with the difference that he could see and speak through them by way of the Rinnegan.

[Hiking_Bear]

Originally Posted by Akashin

It's worth noting that all this evidence hinges upon the idea that it is absolutely impossible for anybody but Madara to have controlled the Kyuubi. That can be untrue without Minato and Jiraiya being wrong; Tobi's most defining trait is that nobody knows a thing about him. It makes perfect sense that Minato would have no knowledge of anybody but Madara being capable of summoning the Kyuubi, and by extension would assume Tobi to be Madara. None of this makes Tobi being somebody under Madara's control any more likely than Tobi being somebody extremely close to Madara, who is privy to pivotal details of Madara's life and is accurately able to assume Madara's identity.

You make a point in that all this makes the theory possible. But none of it really changes the fact that we have no way of knowing that Madara is even capable of body hopping. And until we do, Tobi being somebody really close to Madara seems more plausible almost by default, as far as I'm concerned.

What makes the apprentice idea not plausible for me is that Tobi was able to control the 9-tails. I do think that if there were another Uchiha capable of controlling the 9-tails by his own power then we would have heard of him. But even if, somehow Madara had an apprentice that learned the ability to control the 9-tails, he would never have been able to try out or test that power on the 9-tails, since the 9-tails was sealed shortly after the battle at the VotE. The day of Naruto's birth would have been the first time Tobi would have ever controlled Kurama. And he seemed more experienced than that, as if the power wasn't new to him. For example, he wasn't like Sasuke when he first tried to use Amaterasu against B. Plus, the idea that an unknown apprentice could have fooled Minato, Jiraiya, and Itachi doesn't sit well with me.

Either way, you have to choose between two unproven speculations
A. Madara being able to transfer a portion of his chakra into a newborn baby
or
B. Madara having an apprentice capable of controlling the Kyuubi

I choose A. for the reasons given above, along with the fact that option A. has been done in the series before. Minato and Kushina transferred a portion of their chakra into a newborn Naruto.