(CR) Shouwa Genroku Rakugo Shinjuu Season 2

[ahelo]

Originally Posted by BBOvenGuy

Well, that's the thing... it's the narrative of that five-minute scene vs. the narrative of the entire rest of the series. If Higuchi's claim is true, it means I've been wrong about Yakumo's character all this time, and the whole story collapses for me. With that much at stake, I'll settle for a bit of rationalizing. Your mileage may vary, of course.

I disagree entirely (on a personal level) that Yakumo's character will colapse if Higuchi's claim is true or not. Yes it puts the relationship of the two in a different light, but saying that it destroys their character is too much.

I'm also linking this here because I recently read an article in ANN about the commonality of incestuous relationships in the history of Japan and how mother-son, father-daughter, sibling relationships used to be common until the West came in and claimed it to be taboo. Japan's family lineage is actually very ****d up. I personally find distaste in it, but knowing the historical background behind why something like this happens in anime (why fetishizing incest is so prevalent in anime subculture, or something so weird like the ending of Usagi Drop, or this revelation) would at least make you realize this isn't something that was like a curveball out of nowhere.

ANN link: http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/answ...-03-01/.112826

[BBOvenGuy]

Originally Posted by ahelo

I'm also linking this here because I recently read an article in ANN about the commonality of incestuous relationships in the history of Japan and how mother-son, father-daughter, sibling relationships used to be common until the West came in and claimed it to be taboo.

Oh heavens, I don't care about that. They aren't even related by blood. It has to do with Bon/Kiku/Yakumo fundamentally as a character. There's no sign anywhere in the entire series that he's interested in fatherhood. There's no sign anywhere in the entire series that he's interested in Konatsu romantically or at least sexually. Actually, there's very little sign that he's interested in anyone romantically or sexually. Miyokichi was the love of his life, and you saw how far he was able to take that.

There's also the fact that he never treats Shin like a son or looks at him as one, and he never treats Konatsu as the mother of his child. You can say, "Well, he's good at keeping secrets, just like he did with how Sukeroku and Miyokichi died," except that he wasn't so good at keeping that secret from the audience - we could all see it. Even in his last scene with Konatsu, when it's just the two of them and they're laying all their cards on the table, neither one of them says, "Gee, it's great we had that kid together, isn't it?"

And that's the last bit of it - suddenly throwing the idea in from left field isn't fair to Yakumo, who is no longer around to answer for himself, and it isn't fair to the audience.

Those are my objections for me personally. If none of them register with you, that's fine. I don't want to get into a big argument about it. Over on the Sangatsu no Lion thread, I accidentally touched off a big ruckus that's been going on for days now. It's not my intention to do that here.

All I'm saying is that for me, that one scene almost blew up the entire series, and I'm glad there was someone else out there who had some kind of alternate explanation for it.

[Gan_HOPE326]

Originally Posted by BBOvenGuy

Oh heavens, I don't care about that. They aren't even related by blood. It has to do with Bon/Kiku/Yakumo fundamentally as a character. There's no sign anywhere in the entire series that he's interested in fatherhood. There's no sign anywhere in the entire series that he's interested in Konatsu romantically or at least sexually. Actually, there's very little sign that he's interested in anyone romantically or sexually. Miyokichi was the love of his life, and you saw how far he was able to take that.

There's also the fact that he never treats Shin like a son or looks at him as one, and he never treats Konatsu as the mother of his child. You can say, "Well, he's good at keeping secrets, just like he did with how Sukeroku and Miyokichi died," except that he wasn't so good at keeping that secret from the audience - we could all see it. Even in his last scene with Konatsu, when it's just the two of them and they're laying all their cards on the table, neither one of them says, "Gee, it's great we had that kid together, isn't it?"

And that's the last bit of it - suddenly throwing the idea in from left field isn't fair to Yakumo, who is no longer around to answer for himself, and it isn't fair to the audience.

Those are my objections for me personally. If none of them register with you, that's fine. I don't want to get into a big argument about it. Over on the Sangatsu no Lion thread, I accidentally touched off a big ruckus that's been going on for days now. It's not my intention to do that here.

All I'm saying is that for me, that one scene almost blew up the entire series, and I'm glad there was someone else out there who had some kind of alternate explanation for it.

Dunno. I mean, in one way, the writer is like the perfect embodiment of the fans making up theories: he looks from the outside at this family, with fascination and somewhat morbid curiosity, finds some sort of twisted enjoyment in exploring their past, and makes up his own headcanon about what happened. You could imagine Konatsu kind of trolling him, or give him what he wants, letting him imagine the story in the way that would be more meaningful and, well, rakugo-worthy. Never let the truth get in the way of a good story and all that, a storyteller would probably get that more than anyone else; except this seems too personal a matter to joke about. Perhaps in the manga there was more context we've been deprived of? We got very little screentime for middle-aged Konatsu, so we don't know how and if her personality changed.

I would have bought this slightly more if Shin had already been born as a baby when Yotaro arrived. There's a long gap in Kiku's story there after all and we may understand better how that could have happened while they all were off-screen. IMHO what stretches belief is to think that this supposedly happened after Yotaro became his pupil. Unless I'm getting the dates all wrong and Konatsu could already be pregnant at the beginning of the series.

[BBOvenGuy]

Originally Posted by Gan_HOPE326

IMHO what stretches belief is to think that this supposedly happened after Yotaro became his pupil. Unless I'm getting the dates all wrong and Konatsu could already be pregnant at the beginning of the series.

No, there were several years between the night when Yakumo told them the story and the end of the first season when Konatsu says she's pregnant. You can tell from the color of Yakumo's hair and the fact that Yotaro has finished his apprenticeship.

[Stark700]

Episode 12:

Ah Shin looks mature with time skip after he grew up. Very nice.

Yotaro's age also reflects his growth to as haughty old man. Konatstu being the next apprentice is also a welcoming sight to see. I think in general, the time skip gives a good insight of the next Generation.

Somehow, Matsuda is still alive....lol, that kinda caught me off guard.

Anyway, this show imo was just as entertaining as the first season. From the rich characterization to the unique storytelling, it had everything I had hoped for.

A great show overall. Some episodes took a slightly different approach than what I had anticipated but still well executed.

[Gan_HOPE326]

Originally Posted by BBOvenGuy

No, there were several years between the night when Yakumo told them the story and the end of the first season when Konatsu says she's pregnant. You can tell from the color of Yakumo's hair and the fact that Yotaro has finished his apprenticeship.

Oh, right. I didn't remember the details. Then yeah, it's kind of puzzling to me. I'd be more inclined to believe it isn't true and just the weird headcanon of Creepy Writer Guy if not for Konatsu's ambiguity that seemed way too purposeful (why not just say "HELL NO"?).

[EroKing]

[AC-Phoenix]

Its imho a bit early for Yotaro to see ghost...
Lets hope there is no 'Yotaro dies too soon' OAV in the works :/
He is sweaing a bit much for his age too...


Also regarding their daugther... Is she really his? Sorry but Konatsu telling him that she is his child actually made me doubt her more than if they had just had her without that unecessary proclaimation
- Kouyuki appearing rather close to sensei helped with this suspicion too btw. - the flame lit from said sentence though

[gdpetti]

Well, that 'additional chapter' mentioned at that link by someone in the comments section below the article does seem to indicate otherwise...perhaps?:

"This is an additional Chapter not included in the anime if you care for the manga artist's intentions."
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...h.j5q31xq43z10

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Doesn't it seem that the character design for that Shin is too close to our MC(Yakumo)? That has to be done on purpose, don't you think? I agree that Konatsu's character design in this last episode makes her look the oldest, I didn't recognize her at first... Yotaro put on weight, lost some muscle, but same personality... but she looked too thin, and at least a decade older than she should be... she isn't supposed to be in her 60s yet, is she? It didn't look like the same person to me. I also think that she would have remembered enough of that night over the years to know that our MC wasn't at fault... she would have learned about her mother, father etc ... at least enough to put all the pieces together... she was raised by Masuda as much, if not more, than our MC... and after seeing that 'additional chapter' of her rebellious years, this realization could be an additional factor in her anger... upset... with everyone, everything, her entire situation. Those memories would keep coming back in her dreams/nightmares for many years until she learned to deal with them... 'put them to bed' etc.

Other than that, Shin seems a totally different person grownup now than he did as a kid.. he's lost that energy... he seemed more like his father/mother's father combo... very outgoing.. but now he seems so withdrawn... now he's like our MC... perhaps his real father? Isn't that pushing the character change a little too far? It seems that this series or second season needed another episode to finish it off better, given the rather loose ends... it was still good, but not the sendoff I was looking for.... they needed another episode...not sure if the manga had more material or not to work with.

[Benigmatica]

Episode 12:
I know it was late, but damn it was a grand finale! Then again, the notion that Shinnosuke is actually Yakumo's child might be another story to tell...

In any case, glad that the family is doing well in the world of rakugo and I'm surprised that Matsuda-san survived even after he ferried Master Yakumo to the afterlife. Alas, it's time to say good-bye to Yotarou and his family as rakugo survived beyond Showa era!

It was truly is a great show by Studio DEEN! Bravo!

[BBOvenGuy]

Just popping back to this thread to let anyone still following it know that the live-action drama has been subbed! The last episode was done today. There are some differences from the anime. For one thing, the "past" arc takes up more episodes than the "present" arc, where they were the same length in the anime. For another, there is absolutely no suggestion of that thing that almost blew up the whole anime for me.

If you know where to look for such things, track it down and give it a try. Former child/teen star Narumi Riko plays Konatsu, so you get the added bonus that she can actually play the shamisen.