Gundam Seed/Seed Destiny General Discussion Thread

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by brightman

Agreed. Something like Macross, where every new installment is different and explores different themes and ideas, manages to keep things fresh even while featuring the same universe and same basic framework.

Kawamori has the kind of support from his studio and the kind of control over the Macross universe that Tomino could only dream of .

Originally Posted by brightman

I don't believe the Gundam metaverse, nor the Gundam Seed franchise itself can be treated that way. Gundam Seed/Seed Destiny has had a commercially successful formula that has been proven to work for its particular target demographic. I don't see them tweaking with it if they do make a new TV series.

I'm sort of inclined to agree with you, although I think of potential more as "what can be done" rather than "what's likely to be done". That said, I think that Fukuda and friends really did try to do something new for Destiny. It wasn't entirely successful, but I wouldn't count out the possibility of something just as different this time 'round. I do agree though that the structures of the Gundam precepts do a lot to hinder experimentation.

Originally Posted by brightman

That line was actually stated fairly recently, actually. Last year in fact. So I assume that what he felt back then still applies.

It sounds more as a reflective comment to me, but I've learned to not take what Fukuda says all that seriously.

Originally Posted by brightman

The fact is that Fukuda will be the man in charge of Seed no matter what (with the exception of minor sidestories like Stargazer). Its already suffocating to be a Gundam director due to all the pressures exerted by the powers to be, but to be creatively confined by existing settings and characters also would be a complete no-no for anyone else to take over. And as Fukuda has shown that he's thrown everything he had in the first two series, it might indeed be tough for him to come up with more.

I don't know about that. The production difficulties in Destiny were pretty stifling of themselves, and those would have made the creators make certain tradeoffs in terms of ideas that they're now free to explore. I'm also encouraged by what I've heard about Fukuda's original vision for Destiny - while I don't take his statements seriously in general, that particular one bears a ring of truth no matter who the source was.

If that same kind of vision can be reapplied (hopefully much better this time ), I'll be a happy camper. Fukuda may only be able to do about three and a half things well, but he's actually quite good when he pulls them off (and potentially terrible when he doesn't ).

On the note of a different director, I'm inclined to agree here as well; albeit for slightly different reasons. From watching Stargazer, I can't help but feel that the rest of Sunrise doesn't really know how to deal with the themes and setting very well. While the short play-time may have been an issue, I didn't think that there was much to be impressed by in terms of either characterization or storytelling. It had some decent whiz-bang, but it felt a lot like Fukuda without his better qualities.

Originally Posted by brightman

Because technology progresses way too fast in this timeline. Keep in mind that in two years, the technology in CE basically went from what is the equivalent of UC 0079 to what is the equivalent of UC 0153. So it would be hard to do a series taking place forty years or later like you said because the technology would be way too futuristic for the Gundam franchise. I guess there could be technology stagnation or even reset like in other Gundam shows, but really, anything beyond what's shown in Destiny at least is already uncharted territory, so it might be a challenge for them to come out with new technology that still fits within the confines of the Gundam metaverse.

It's important to note that it's not a good idea to judge technological progressions of one universe with another. There are a couple of reasons for this: technology doesn't progress at constant rate in all fields, and it's easy to make mistakes in one's assumptions. On top of that, there's nothing to say that a fictional universe is a good gauge of what's reasonable.

Strip away the potentially misleading technological signposts, and at the beginning of Seed, I think it's fair to say that Cosmic Era technology was significantly more advanced than UC 0079, and at the end of Destiny, it's still nowhere near that of UC 0154. For that matter, there are quite a few technologies found in earlier Gundam works that weren't present in Victory.

Moreover, there's no such thing (or at least there shouldn't be such a thing) as too futuristic for a Gundam show. To try to make such artificial constraints is to just handicap the franchise unnecessarily. In any case, the reason I wouldn't mind seeing a later Cosmic Era work is more to explore the setting some time after the depicted events, and without having to deal with the main characters.

[ryanvamp]

I've read a lot of pages of this thread and the answer to my question seems kinda obvious, but I'll try nonetheless:


I've seen Gundam Seed. I thought it was good, not 0079/Zeta Gundam good, but an entertaining if inferior remake of 0079 with really nice mecha designs and some soap opera moments.

Now, I was about to watch Seed Destiny, but I've read soooooooooo many negative comments towards it (not just here, in a lot of places), that I'm skeptical at the least. On the other hand, I've read that the 4 compilation movies fixes a lot of problems acknowledged by the authors and fans, but well, that's in Wikipedia and maybe it's the opinion of one person who edited the article. The question is, should I watch the compilation movies instead ? Besides avoiding recaps and constant flashbacks, are they really better ? Don't they butcher the storyline or something ? Is the ending improved?

I've read that the story is told from the perspective of Athrun instead of Jesus Yamato and "everybody hates my guts" Shinn....so I guess that's a pretty big change. I've seen the 0079 compilation movies and, even if the pace is really fast, I enjoyed them greatly and didn't think that I miss crucial stuff (we'll, maybe Lalah's role was kind of rushed but it's only an assumption)...

Last but not least, is the screentime of the mechs shortened ? Cause I've seen videos of the Saviour Gundam and it reminds me a lot of the Zeta mechs, so even if my main concern is the storyline and characters, I wouldn't like to miss some cool battles.

Thanks for reading guys

[tanqexe]

When you have compilation movies you're always going to get compressed action scenes. Then again, that might be a good thing considering it's GSD, notorious for its beat-dead-horse recycled animations. Why don't you watch the compilations first, and if you like it and think you can stomach the premise all the way through, watch the original?

[D-KLAC]

well maybe unless gsm might do finally something no other gundam time era has ever done that is a LEADING MAIN FEMALE CHARACTER?!

cause remember GS series was 1st non-uc to get 2nd tv series season aka GSD.

besides maybe in gundam 30th might happen in gsm a main leading female character!!!

[germanturkey]

yeah, i've thought about them making the main character Kira and Lacus' daughter like 20 years down the road from where they're at now. (making her ~18). since Kira is the unstoppable force, any plot can be solved with him destroying everything. but down the road, maybe Kira retired or something, or some new tech comes along that pwns strike freedom (god i hope not) then his daughter (who through eugenics is technically second only to Kira) has to come and save the day..

[Dean_the_Young]

Originally Posted by D-KLAC

well maybe unless gsm might do finally something no other gundam time era has ever done that is a LEADING MAIN FEMALE CHARACTER?!

MSG: Ecole du Ciel. Effectively side material, true, but so is a gundam seed movie.

cause remember GS series was 1st non-uc to get 2nd tv series season aka GSD.

besides maybe in gundam 30th might happen in gsm a main leading female character!!!

Not going to happen, for the fact that both Seed and Destiny took pains to portray women as the weaker sex who must be protected by men or die, no matter how skilled/talented/superb a pilot/captain/singer/manipulator they might be. Past Cagelli (arguably, with all of Destiny against her), there is no female character who they could use, and if they create a brand new one they will have to effectively throw the old cast into the background, and we all know how that turned out.

[brightman]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Kawamori has the kind of support from his studio and the kind of control over the Macross universe that Tomino could only dream of .

Macross is also not nearly the cultural icon or the moneymaker that Gundam is.

I'm sort of inclined to agree with you, although I think of potential more as "what can be done" rather than "what's likely to be done". That said, I think that Fukuda and friends really did try to do something new for Destiny. It wasn't entirely successful, but I wouldn't count out the possibility of something just as different this time 'round. I do agree though that the structures of the Gundam precepts do a lot to hinder experimentation.

I agree that they did new things with Destiny and explored new and different themes from Seed and I commend them for that. However, it also doesn't try to stray too far from the basic formula either. Its still a good vs evil story with a big baddie in the end. Its still the same sappy teenage drama with the ideological babble thrown in like in the first show. Its still a show with an extreme emphasis on glorifying and beautifying mobile suits.

As for its "potential", I will talk more about that below...

It sounds more as a reflective comment to me, but I've learned to not take what Fukuda says all that seriously.

Agreed to this as well. But the fact that Destiny had a lot of creative issues and production problems (especially on the writing side) that are indisputable, so what he said fits in with what we've been hearing from not just him, but other staff of the show.

I don't know about that. The production difficulties in Destiny were pretty stifling of themselves, and those would have made the creators make certain tradeoffs in terms of ideas that they're now free to explore. I'm also encouraged by what I've heard about Fukuda's original vision for Destiny - while I don't take his statements seriously in general, that particular one bears a ring of truth no matter who the source was.

If that same kind of vision can be reapplied (hopefully much better this time ), I'll be a happy camper. Fukuda may only be able to do about three and a half things well, but he's actually quite good when he pulls them off (and potentially terrible when he doesn't ).

As someone who's seen ALL of Fukuda's works, I can honestly tell you that while he does tend to try to do new things in each iteration of a series, but his orthodox methods and unwillingness to stray from a formula that was establish (re: Cyber Formula) does tend to lead to a sense of repetition, which is something that I took note of when I wrote that post. Which is why I think the third series won't stray too far from what's been done either.

A movie may be a different question though, as it is a different medium where he is forced to do things a bit differently.

On the note of a different director, I'm inclined to agree here as well; albeit for slightly different reasons. From watching Stargazer, I can't help but feel that the rest of Sunrise doesn't really know how to deal with the themes and setting very well. While the short play-time may have been an issue, I didn't think that there was much to be impressed by in terms of either characterization or storytelling. It had some decent whiz-bang, but it felt a lot like Fukuda without his better qualities.

The same issues show in Astray, where they appear to take the ideas and themes from the TV series, place them in a grinder and take the top off, causing everything to explode... The thing is that the other writers seem to miss the points of the show and try to exaggerate everything to the point of excess. Which is why I think anything else in the CE universe should be done by Fukuda/Morosawa, no one else.

It's important to note that it's not a good idea to judge technological progressions of one universe with another. There are a couple of reasons for this: technology doesn't progress at constant rate in all fields, and it's easy to make mistakes in one's assumptions. On top of that, there's nothing to say that a fictional universe is a good gauge of what's reasonable.

Strip away the potentially misleading technological signposts, and at the beginning of Seed, I think it's fair to say that Cosmic Era technology was significantly more advanced than UC 0079, and at the end of Destiny, it's still nowhere near that of UC 0154. For that matter, there are quite a few technologies found in earlier Gundam works that weren't present in Victory.

I beg to differ in this case. There is such a thing as excess in technology progression and IMO the CE universe is such an example. Keep in mind that I am referring entirely to mobile suits. There is so much technology introduced in such a short time (basically everything introduced for UC suits from 0079 to 0153, except maybe for the 360-degree panoramic display). Remember that in CE 70, ZAFT basically only had the GINN, which is the equivalent of a Zaku II, with no beam weapons, no flight, no advance armor, low mobility, etc. Within three years, there are mobile suits that can turn invisible, can deflect and reflect beams, are invincible to all conventional weaponry, can sustain infinite flight, fire of infinite giant beams, use all-ranged weapons (DRAGOONS), etc., etc., etc. To top it off, the way these new suits are depicted is that they have faster than man-like speed and agility, can act as WMDs (Destroy Gundam), travel faster than eye can see (Destiny), basically take own armies by themselves. And this is not considering some of the more absurd technological concepts from the Astray sidestories too.

Now consider that all of this happened in THREE short years. What happens in FORTY years then? Suits that can blow up the world without even trying? Possible, but definitely not good for Gundam.

IMO this is the biggest problem with Fukuda & crew and why I think CE is not sustainable. They like to throw everything they can think of into the show, whether its ideas, themes, technology, etc., leaving no stones unturned. Will work for the first series, and maybe for the second one too. After that it all depends on how long it takes for it to blow up on them.

Moreover, there's no such thing (or at least there shouldn't be such a thing) as too futuristic for a Gundam show. To try to make such artificial constraints is to just handicap the franchise unnecessarily. In any case, the reason I wouldn't mind seeing a later Cosmic Era work is more to explore the setting some time after the depicted events, and without having to deal with the main characters.

There is no hard constraint, but there is definitely a framework in which the technology of each series can fit within, and each alternate universe so far has tried to fit in this framework, with minor exceptions (nanomachines being prominent in G, Turn A and 00 for example). There is no fantasy-like metropolis with flying ships for example. No shows with grunt suits that can travel at greater than light speed. No advanced alien technology (even Turn X, which is supposedly not of the world, uses technological concepts already established in the franchise and just takes them a further step).

Why is that? We've already discuss this before. People have expectations of what Gundam is and what its contents are. Going overboard and hurting these expectations create a backlash against the show, which I imagine is definitely something that Bandai will no longer go for.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by D-KLAC

well maybe unless gsm might do finally something no other gundam time era has ever done that is a LEADING MAIN FEMALE CHARACTER?!

It's that conservatism quibble again. A female main character is outside of what Sunrise/Bandai sees as suited for Gundam, so we might never see it in a major animated work.

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

MSG: Ecole du Ciel. Effectively side material, true, but so is a gundam seed movie.

Not quite. The hierarchy is (mostly): TV shows/movies/compilations -> OVAs -> minor works/manga/novels. Movies are just about as important as the TV shows they are based on. For marketing purposes, they will probably never make a Gundam TV show based on an existing manga. The only possible semi-exception is Unicorn Gundam.

Originally Posted by brightman

Macross is also not nearly the cultural icon or the moneymaker that Gundam is.

Touche. However, this status is also creatively stifling, so it's enough to make one feel pity for both Tomino and Gundam.

Originally Posted by brightman

I agree that they did new things with Destiny and explored new and different themes from Seed and I commend them for that. However, it also doesn't try to stray too far from the basic formula either. Its still a good vs evil story with a big baddie in the end. Its still the same sappy teenage drama with the ideological babble thrown in like in the first show. Its still a show with an extreme emphasis on glorifying and beautifying mobile suits.

In terms of trappings, I agree with you, but I think that there was a fundamental shift in the kind of story they portrayed. The most telling thing in my mind was the unusual emphasis on Durandal.

Originally Posted by brightman

Agreed to this as well. But the fact that Destiny had a lot of creative issues and production problems (especially on the writing side) that are indisputable, so what he said fits in with what we've been hearing from not just him, but other staff of the show.

I know that the fundamental complaint was that Morosawa was turning in scripts very late, but I don't think that the precise reason has ever been confirmed. It can indicate a lack of vision from the creative team, but it can come from a lot of different problems as well. (Personal conflicts can be a big culprit here)

Originally Posted by brightman

As someone who's seen ALL of Fukuda's works, I can honestly tell you that while he does tend to try to do new things in each iteration of a series, but his orthodox methods and unwillingness to stray from a formula that was establish (re: Cyber Formula) does tend to lead to a sense of repetition, which is something that I took note of when I wrote that post. Which is why I think the third series won't stray too far from what's been done either.

The personal touch to make each detail seem fresh and unique is definitely not one of Fukuda's three and a half strengths .

Originally Posted by brightman

The same issues show in Astray, where they appear to take the ideas and themes from the TV series, place them in a grinder and take the top off, causing everything to explode... The thing is that the other writers seem to miss the points of the show and try to exaggerate everything to the point of excess. Which is why I think anything else in the CE universe should be done by Fukuda/Morosawa, no one else.

I don't read manga as a rule, but what I've heard of the Astray mangas have been a big turn-off.

Originally Posted by brightman

I beg to differ in this case. There is such a thing as excess in technology progression and IMO the CE universe is such an example. Keep in mind that I am referring entirely to mobile suits.

You're making a bit of a mistake here to think of the GiNN as the pinnacle of mobile suit-scale weaponry at the start of Seed. What they also had was remote-weapons in the Moebius Zero, almost complete stealth in Blitz, transformable mobile suits in Aegis, and of course, Phase-Shift armor at the very beginning. If we go further to larger-scale systems, a top of the line battleship like Archangel, with a few improvements, was still at the top of the dogheap even at the end Destiny.

Perhaps a bigger problem is to use UC as a gauge in the first place. These technological improvements aren't linear, and it's quite possible (even probable) to pursue them all simultaneously. There's no rule in writing that says that these should act as some sort of hard limit on what should be possible. There are a number of ways to portray technological improvements without having to go to extremes. While the basic conservatism of the Gundam franchise precludes using the majority of them, there certainly are still viable options.

Originally Posted by brightman

Why is that? We've already discuss this before. People have expectations of what Gundam is and what its contents are. Going overboard and hurting these expectations create a backlash against the show, which I imagine is definitely something that Bandai will no longer go for.

This has been one of the main reasons why I maintain that Destiny would have been better off not being a Gundam show. It's a bit unfortunate to see a huge franchise hobbled like this due to its own weight.

[ryanvamp]

Originally Posted by tanqexe

When you have compilation movies you're always going to get compressed action scenes. Then again, that might be a good thing considering it's GSD, notorious for its beat-dead-horse recycled animations. Why don't you watch the compilations first, and if you like it and think you can stomach the premise all the way through, watch the original?

It's a good advice, but so far no one pointed out which of them is better (or less bad): the compilation movies or the series. Maybe no one watched the movies because of the bad taste left by the series?

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by ryanvamp

It's a good advice, but so far no one pointed out which of them is better (or less bad): the compilation movies or the series. Maybe no one watched the movies because of the bad taste left by the series?

I prefer the series myself, but I think that most viewers would prefer the compilations. The latter has less downtime between action sequences, and some of the issues of pacing are of less concern. One big difference is that the most lacklustre parts of the second cour are generally glossed over for the better. In exchange, there's a loss of a fair number of character moments although most of the better ones are kept.

You should also keep in mind that the series itself has two endings. The original one was fairly lacking, and it has since been replaced in the canon with the Final Plus episode. I can't remember exactly, but I think that the ending for the compilation is very close to Final Plus.

[brightman]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

You're making a bit of a mistake here to think of the GiNN as the pinnacle of mobile suit-scale weaponry at the start of Seed. What they also had was remote-weapons in the Moebius Zero, almost complete stealth in Blitz, transformable mobile suits in Aegis, and of course, Phase-Shift armor at the very beginning. If we go further to larger-scale systems, a top of the line battleship like Archangel, with a few improvements, was still at the top of the dogheap even at the end Destiny.

I wasn't referring to the start of Seed. I was referring to the start of the first war in CE 70, and back then all there was was the GINN. Heck the Moebius Zero wasn't created.

Perhaps a bigger problem is to use UC as a gauge in the first place. These technological improvements aren't linear, and it's quite possible (even probable) to pursue them all simultaneously. There's no rule in writing that says that these should act as some sort of hard limit on what should be possible. There are a number of ways to portray technological improvements without having to go to extremes. While the basic conservatism of the Gundam franchise precludes using the majority of them, there certainly are still viable options.

The thing is not technological improvements, its TOO MUCH technology introduced at the same time. This not just affects technological development of the show, but throws off the power balance completely. Why? Because this is not just technology that only the best few suits or only one or two sides can have, but something that everyone and their mothers have.

Both EA and ZAFT and whomever else have access to all these extremely destructive technologies, unlike in other shows, where these powers are reserved to one or two suits. So you now have mere grunt suits being able to shoot off beams that can take out battleships in one shot and when you have stuff like mass produced Destroy Gundams (Shinn Asuka isn't going to be around to fight off those every time) and suits loaded like a Swiss Army knife, then you really have a problem keeping these technologies from getting out of hand.

This has been one of the main reasons why I maintain that Destiny would have been better off not being a Gundam show. It's a bit unfortunate to see a huge franchise hobbled like this due to its own weight.

Neither Seed nor Destiny would have turned out the way they did if they weren't Gundam shows nor be nearly as successful. While there are all these creative restrictions, there is also the big budget to go with it, along with tons of help from marketing. So if these weren't Gundam shows, then they would merely be average mecha shows that are dime-a-dozen nowadays. Frankly I doubt they would have stood out as much.

[hedes]

I just didn't like the concept that kira was the perfect coordinator.. making everything he does seem like an overkill. other than that i am ok with the series.. i'll watch any series as long as its gundam =D

[ryanvamp]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

I prefer the series myself, but I think that most viewers would prefer the compilations. The latter has less downtime between action sequences, and some of the issues of pacing are of less concern. One big difference is that the most lacklustre parts of the second cour are generally glossed over for the better. In exchange, there's a loss of a fair number of character moments although most of the better ones are kept.

You should also keep in mind that the series itself has two endings. The original one was fairly lacking, and it has since been replaced in the canon with the Final Plus episode. I can't remember exactly, but I think that the ending for the compilation is very close to Final Plus.

I see...well, if everybody complains about characters being horribly developed (i.e. Cagalli, Shinn, ShinnxStellar), I guess it's not that bad that a fair number of character moments are lost in the movies. Honestly, my main concern with the compilations were as simple as not wanting them to be a WORSE experience than watching the already bad-reviewed series.

I can live with less battles (more so considering they rehash animations), but I couldn't say the same about losing coherence in the plot (with a plot that isn't that great from the beggining).

Anyway, to sum it up: if the movies fix issues, avoid flashbacks and shape a better storyline, I'm gonna go with them, cause I really want to see the end of the story (at least for know). I think it's the exact opposite of the Zeta Gundam movies: I never intended to watch them because they destroyed the original storyline in the "translation". Me watching the Seed Destiny movies (and asking for opinions here) is all about trying to watch the better product of the same story.

If I'm right about this, then my only regret is not watching a lot of the Saviour Gundam. But that's just fanservice and I can always search for the episodes that feature it.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by brightman

I wasn't referring to the start of Seed. I was referring to the start of the first war in CE 70, and back then all there was was the GINN. Heck the Moebius Zero wasn't created.

The thing is not technological improvements, its TOO MUCH technology introduced at the same time. This not just affects technological development of the show, but throws off the power balance completely. Why? Because this is not just technology that only the best few suits or only one or two sides can have, but something that everyone and their mothers have.

I'm not sure why you would necessarily start from the beginning of the war rather than the beginning of the series. But I still don't think that filtering advanced technologies to line units is a bad thing at all. It would at least justify the labelling of super mobile suits as prototypes.

Originally Posted by brightman

Both EA and ZAFT and whomever else have access to all these extremely destructive technologies, unlike in other shows, where these powers are reserved to one or two suits. So you now have mere grunt suits being able to shoot off beams that can take out battleships in one shot and when you have stuff like mass produced Destroy Gundams (Shinn Asuka isn't going to be around to fight off those every time) and suits loaded like a Swiss Army knife, then you really have a problem keeping these technologies from getting out of hand.

That shouldn't be much of a problem. If too much offensive power is the problem, then it's relatively easy to increase the standard defensive capabilities. The key to making the combat work is the offense-defense balance, not necessarily their absolute values.

If the creators don't want mass-produced Destroys, then it would be easy enough to simply say that they weren't worth fielding in large numbers. Heck, that's already the excuse that's used for the Gundams themselves.

Originally Posted by brightman

Neither Seed nor Destiny would have turned out the way they did if they weren't Gundam shows nor be nearly as successful. While there are all these creative restrictions, there is also the big budget to go with it, along with tons of help from marketing. So if these weren't Gundam shows, then they would merely be average mecha shows that are dime-a-dozen nowadays. Frankly I doubt they would have stood out as much.

I can't see the problem with that . The things I liked from Seed/Destiny tended to have nothing to do with their Gundam influences. It likely to be untrue of Gundam fans, but I don't think that having a lower budget or less marketing or less popularity would have affected my enjoyment very much.

Originally Posted by ryanvamp

Anyway, to sum it up: if the movies fix issues, avoid flashbacks and shape a better storyline, I'm gonna go with them, cause I really want to see the end of the story (at least for know). I think it's the exact opposite of the Zeta Gundam movies: I never intended to watch them because they destroyed the original storyline in the "translation". Me watching the Seed Destiny movies (and asking for opinions here) is all about trying to watch the better product of the same story.

If that's your concern, you're probably best off watching the compilations. I don't know if the plot there is as complete as it is in the TV show, but it's not as if the latter is a particular stellar example of storytelling to begin with. Either way, you're still going to have to read a fair bit of it from the subtext.

The character stuff I miss are things like the general sweep of the character changes, and some of the more fun/interesting character moments. For that matter, I'm probably one of relatively rare people on this forum who liked the ways Shinn and Cagalli's characters were developed.

[Seibee]

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

Not going to happen, for the fact that both Seed and Destiny took pains to portray women as the weaker sex who must be protected by men or die, no matter how skilled/talented/superb a pilot/captain/singer/manipulator they might be.

Hence why I don't want a Seed movie. Murrue always gets nerfed >.<

[brightman]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

I'm not sure why you would necessarily start from the beginning of the war rather than the beginning of the series. But I still don't think that filtering advanced technologies to line units is a bad thing at all. It would at least justify the labelling of super mobile suits as prototypes.

To show how fast the technology progresses and the sheer amount new technologies introduced in this show?

That shouldn't be much of a problem. If too much offensive power is the problem, then it's relatively easy to increase the standard defensive capabilities. The key to making the combat work is the offense-defense balance, not necessarily their absolute values.

This balance not just about mobile suit combat. When every grunt can basically destroy a whole city with one shot of a cannon then you know you have a problem. This is just an example of course. But something like this is inevitable based on how much more powerful mobile suits, and grunt suits even, have become in this show.

If the creators don't want mass-produced Destroys, then it would be easy enough to simply say that they weren't worth fielding in large numbers. Heck, that's already the excuse that's used for the Gundams themselves.

The thing is they've already DID it. That's the key issue here. Once they've done something it would be tough to undo it.

I can't see the problem with that . The things I liked from Seed/Destiny tended to have nothing to do with their Gundam influences. It likely to be untrue of Gundam fans, but I don't think that having a lower budget or less marketing or less popularity would have affected my enjoyment very much.

Well I can tell you that personally I wouldn't have watched this show were it not a Gundam series. We will agree to disagree.

[Sander RX]

Originally Posted by brightman

The thing is they've already DID it. That's the key issue here. Once they've done something it would be tough to undo it.

How about:
"So we MPed all those Destroys,but all units failed...miserably.As we didnt get the desired "once Big Zam is mass-produced..." effect,we give up on those oversized Windams."

[brightman]

Originally Posted by Sander RX

How about:
"So we MPed all those Destroys,but all units failed...miserably.As we didnt get the desired "once Big Zam is mass-produced..." effect,we give up on those oversized Windams."

They only failed against the Mineva crew, you know. The original Destroy did number in Eastern Europe before Freedom & Impulse showed up, and there is no question that they are powerful against anything other than aces.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by brightman

To show how fast the technology progresses and the sheer amount new technologies introduced in this show?

I'm not sure what your question is really about, but technology isn't linear, and there can easily be long stretches where particular lines are left fallow or little progress is made. Look at the Titan V - it's a four-decade technology, but we currently don't have anything in the world to match its lift capability (and won't for a while to come).

Originally Posted by brightman

They only failed against the Mineva crew, you know. The original Destroy did number in Eastern Europe before Freedom & Impulse showed up, and there is no question that they are powerful against anything other than aces.

I can't see the problem here. Destroys represent an enormous investment in resources - easily equal to a whole battleship. They also have to operate with the support of a large logistics train and many mobile suits, so why should it be surprising that they can be fairly effective in their niche? On top of that, if one can build a powerful machine, then why shouldn't it be possible to build more of them? I know that Gundam has perpetuated the fallacy that any powerful machines should be unique, but it's an understandable story device, it's never been a particularly plausible one. It's supposed to come down to a cost-effectiveness analysis, but the ace suits seem to repeatedly outperform what their supposed costs represent.

And on the storytelling front, the Destroys weren't all that effective in the end, so the creators have a built-in reason to not ever bring them or similar units up again if they so wish.

[finalnight]

I think the annoucement of the G00 movie as well as the production of the UC project pretty much confirms that the Seed movie is mothballed/scuttled. Is it a possibility that one day it might be done, sure, anything is possible. But it appears Sunrise and Bandai have moved on from the CE universe.