2008-12-30, 21:54 | Link #41 |
The Princess Has Arrived♥
Artist
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The only time it is not okay is if it infringes on other peoples' rights. Weither it be peace, or respect. Expressing yourself shouldn't go as far as(for example) dressing 'Nazi like' near a Jewish population, just because your ancestors were nazi's. Yes they may've been, but you're disturbing peace that shouldn't be disturbed.
Get what I mean? I'm sucky at explaining things, but I hope you got the gist of it. |
2008-12-30, 22:22 | Link #42 |
Observer/Bookman wannabe
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 38
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I can see a case for "anything goes", and I don't necessary object to it. But, there will be consequences, and if a majority thinks that they can deal with the fallout, then go ahead.
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2008-12-30, 22:29 | Link #43 | |||
Moving in circles
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 49
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Except that this isn't practical in most real-life cases. When you are tied down by obligations to job, friends and family, you can't simply pull up roots to move somewhere else. And let's not forget that there are many millions of people who are too poor to move, even if they wanted to. They are stuck where they are, like it or not, and they have to learn to live with circumstances as best as they can. Quote:
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Absolute freedom of expression means the freedom to say absolutely anything you want, without care about the consequences. |
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2008-12-30, 22:34 | Link #44 |
思想工作
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Vereinigte Staaten
Age: 31
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Yes. But you can't make a law about that; as there are cases that people don't agree upon, like the drawing of the Prophet. The only thing you can make a law about is giving people free speech except when it violates other people's rights.
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2008-12-30, 22:44 | Link #45 |
Moving in circles
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 49
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The cartoons of the Prophet Mohammed are excellent examples of the practical difficulties in defining what constitutes free speech, individual rights and respect for your neighbours' feelings.
To the Danish, the cartoons were ok — a valid expression of their collective opinion about Islam. But to Muslims (in Denmark and not just the rest of the world), they were blasphemous and a gross affront to their sensibilities. Trouble is, why should religious sensibility be considered a right? What makes your religion so special that I can't insult it when I feel that it's really stupid and deserves ridicule? So you see, "freedom of speech" doesn't imply total freedom at all — it was never meant to. Great power comes with the freedom to say whatever you want, but along with that power, comes the responsibility to say it as sensibly, and as tactfully, as you can. |
2008-12-30, 23:09 | Link #46 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2008
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2008-12-30, 23:15 | Link #47 | |
Moving in circles
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 49
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Is it any wonder then that the country is locked in fundamentalist strains of Islam, and has become one of the leading places in the world for producing radicalised militants? |
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2008-12-30, 23:38 | Link #49 | |
Banned
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Imperial Manila, Philippines
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In short, when I am powerful enough, I can say whatever I want without regard for the fallout. If I can crush those who might react negatively to my words, then what is there to worry about? So in a repressive society, it is the power who exercises "freedom of speech" and when these P.C. scumbags attain this power, their "inoffensive" viewpoint is the only one left unchallenged. |
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2008-12-31, 00:02 | Link #50 | ||
Moving in circles
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 49
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Even the mightiest brute currently in power needed, at one time, to use his powers of persuasion to gather his own minions. Regardless of how oppressive a regime you live in, you are always free to speak your mind — provided you are willing to live with the (potentially fatal) consequences. Quote:
What's wrong with giving women education and access to jobs? But to the conservative mullahs of Pakistan, that is akin to the greatest sin — to them, their women must be kept chaste, away from the corruption of society. When you can't even read your alphabet, what can you hope to express? |
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2008-12-31, 00:16 | Link #51 | |
The Princess Has Arrived♥
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2008-12-31, 00:23 | Link #52 | |
Moving in circles
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 49
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Disrespectful expression is still expression. The things I want to say to a dictactor would hardly seem respectful to him, I suspect. In the end, I think too many people talk about the "freedom of expression" in academic terms. On the ground, the reality is different; is dynamic. When you exercise tact, judgement and a good sense of timing, a single word is all you need to effect change. |
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2008-12-31, 02:18 | Link #53 | |||||||
I disagree with you all.
Join Date: Dec 2005
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And I agree on one point: Freedom of Speech, on its own, is not a problem. If everything else is perfect, hate speeches won't find purchase. But reality is cruel: everything else is imperfect. We have plenty of problems which won't go away with a snap of the fingers. A government can hope some censorship of the most radical, most violent opinions will at least quell some of the aggravating factors. No, in reality, we have laws forbidding murder. We don't merely count on people being smart and not wanting to live in a society of killers. We don't count on people being afraid of their potential victims' loved ones. Quote:
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For myself, I like the Patrician's idea of free speech: let people say whatever. Have someone take notes. |
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2008-12-31, 02:31 | Link #54 |
ISML Technical Staff
Graphic Designer
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Sigh, you seem to not understand laws that forbids and laws that gives consequences.
In my view, if you forbid someone to do something, then it's the same punishment no matter what. For example, if there is a law forbidding to kill or else it is death, then no matter whom you kill, it will end in death. This means that you already know exactly what will happen to you before you commit the action. Responsibilities and consequences are different. We have what we call trial which decides the degree of damage you have done. Your sentence is short or long depending on the severity of your actions, with no exact "rules." Thus, consequences are not censorship. It comes after the action, not before. But of course, we will come to more misunderstandings without a concrete example, so let's take yours. Instead of saying, "If you yell 'Fire' in a movie theatre, this will happen to you," we wait until someone yells "Fire" then punishes them depending on the result of their action.
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2008-12-31, 02:47 | Link #55 | |
Banned
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Imperial Manila, Philippines
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I smell paternalism.... No different from dictators who "dictate" for common welfare. The free market takes care of the idiot situation, my friend. |
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2008-12-31, 03:01 | Link #56 |
ISML Technical Staff
Graphic Designer
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Looking back, I feel that the problem here isn't if censorship/responsibilities/consequences or whatever you want to call it should be used, since we're basically discussing technicalities and not the problem itself. No matter if it's one thing or another, I keep asking myself if the comedian was at fault. I've always been a liberal and even though I do not like the joke, I really don't care, but I'm also not a Jew either so my opinion sort of doesn't count. I'm the type of person who may not support gay marriages but I'm not going to vote against it because I don't give a **** what other couples are doing. So what do I think? No to censorship, or whatever you may want to call it.
Let those who find his Jewish jokes funny come to his shows and those who don't find them funny/are offended not come to his shows. If enough people are offended, then he'll go broke/have to change his jokes. It's that simple.
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2008-12-31, 03:40 | Link #58 |
Observer/Bookman wannabe
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 38
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"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - what Voltaire might say to the topic at hand. It takes maturity and guts to follow that line, but the benefits are quite considerable.
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Last edited by yezhanquan; 2008-12-31 at 04:06. |
2008-12-31, 03:58 | Link #59 | ||||||
I disagree with you all.
Join Date: Dec 2005
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What you're trying to say, I think, is that we should allow free speech but place punishment on, say, lynching. (Which isn't really the same as your confusing spiel about consequences. Everything has consequences, including consequences.) By the same token, drunk driving should be allowed and there should be no speed limits. It's causing car accidents that should be forbidden, right? I personally feel that imprudent actions should be punished even if you luck out this timeand don't cause anything bad. Quote:
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