One Piece - Chapter 570 (manga)

[andy]

Originally Posted by noktown

Shouldn't Kizaru also be able to literally instant transmit himself to anyplace he wants ?Unless he's busy...

He try and WB stop him .

@ Blackbeard D. Kuma those people you mention you have no idea if there are fighting or who they are fighting. This is still a battle with thousands of people. Plus WB still has 14 commanders.

WB said back up luffy you are going to bet that no one is going to get close him without a fight no matter who they are .

[marvelB]

Originally Posted by AddiKtioNn-BlaCk

How is it cheap?
Strength and fighting capabilities isn't always equivalent to ranking.
As we all know.
We don't know if Marco would be able to fight evenly with the other 2 Admirals.
Only Kizaru because their abilities cancel each other out.
Just because he kicked Aoijiki doesn't mean would have won or overpowered him.
So maybe we are all overestimating Marco's strength.

To be fair, I did say "less cheap", instead of "not cheap at all". I never expected the marines to play completely by the rulebooks, but I still kinda wish they took Marco down in a more..... epic manner, y'know? (i.e. without resorting to seastone.) Maybe I am overestimating the first commander a bit, but I think anyone would have pretty high expectations for a phoenix DF user. But.... whatever. I'll drop the subject for now.....




Anyway, now that Inazuma's back in action, I wouldn't mind seeing him have a little scuffle with a VA sometime within the next few chapters. I doubt he'd fight any of the more significant VAs, though (i.e. Buster Call guys). He'd probably contend with somebody like that dalmation guy or maybe one of those giants if any of them are still standing.....

[MihawkXGP]

Originally Posted by Poetic Justice

If WB has Haoushoku Haki, Why don't soldiers fall unconscious in front of him? Or is it simply a matter of him not using it?

It must be something to do with his physical health...his health has failed him. Otherwise he'd have killed Ao Kiji when he speared him, and that attack woulda cut Kizaru in half.

Marco has been a huge disapointment so far, but i trust in Oda, that he is saving Marco for something special. I mean, you don't just reveal an ability like the Phoenix...only for him to do fk all & get owned by some lasers. I'm Marco's No.1 fan, so I have faith yet.

[seiji_kun]

Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma

Of course you would because all you want is to see Luffy save Ace with no resistance whatsoever.

Here are two of the several people that can easily prevent Luffy from freeing Ace.

Moria - He can command his brick bats to swarm and pester Luffy for as long as he likes. This would distract Luffy because he would be too busy trying to get them off of him.

Kuma - He can literally appear right in front of Luffy and proceed to beat the crap out of him. Realistically, Luffy would not be able to get by him.

No, I just don't want Luffy to pass Garp or Sengoku with strength since I wouldn't find it very believable to him to be able to get passed those two due to strength.

It's no surprise to me that you mention Moria since you seem to love the dude so much and Kuma with his paw attacks were even within my guess. Moria and Kuma were easely schooled bye Jinbei and Iva which would make it totally laughable for me if those two suddenly would be able to stop him, do we really need them to be stopped again bye those two. And Technically Moria could've had his bats swarm around him the whole war but it never happened so hoping it suddenly happens at a crucial moment would make no sense. Nor can I see Kuma aim a paw with pin point location at a platform of such height, or almost anyone besides Kizaru with jumping (floating?) in the air.

Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma

Then your expectations are in vain seeing as how the WB pirates are not strong enough to defend themselves against the entire marines force and 4 warlords. It's clear that they're losing and cannot win this battle through their own sheer power alone.

It's so much in vain that they actually made it close enough to the execution platform for Inazuma to create a path to Ace. I'll wait out and see what'll happen then rather doom them already like you seem to do. Cause I don't find it clear that they'll lose and can still see them rise from the ashes as a phoenix. WB's final stand won't be in vain. Legends go out with a bang, not as failures.

Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma

You misunderstood me. I said there's no way Luffy is going to have things go his way so smoothly. "Going" is the key word here, for it means from this point on, as in the present (Luffy being on Inazuma's bridge). I wasn't talking about the past events that have led up to this moment.

Right back at you, there's no way that outside interference would stop Luffy. It's all about Luffy vs Garp and Sengoku. Those guys had their chance before he made it that far. We've shown what happens when you show your back to the enemy and want to dash of somewhere, you get injured like Marco and seastoned cuffed or slashed in two like WB did to Kizaru. And it would make him even getting their pointless if you're just going to keep putting all the enemies that he passed back in front of him.

No-one is going to interfere with the gramps schooling his grandson and when Luffy has put his gramps on the right path it'll already be to late. I don't know how smoothly the convincing will go (if it even happens but that's what I expect) but it has to go rather smoothly cause I'd choose that option over Luffy magicly defeating Garp and Sengoku and then freeing Ace any day.

Originally Posted by james0246

@Blackbeard D. Kuma: Ranged attacks, in general, are actually pretty boring (they are only fun when you are in the sniping position ), unless the fight is about figuring out how to get around a ranged attacker (ala the opening sequence of Saving Private Ryan, etc). In the end, I can't help but feel that a ranged attack, right now, would ruin the pacing of the battle (which is building up to its conclusion (arguably, Luffy releasing his Haki or Whitebeard advancing after being stabbed near the heart were the climax of the battle)).

+1. I think it sums up pretty well what I'm saying.

Originally Posted by andy

He try and WB stop him .

@ Blackbeard D. Kuma those people you mention you have no idea if there are fighting or who they are fighting. This is still a battle with thousands of people. Plus WB still has 14 commanders.

WB said back up luffy you are going to bet that no one is going to get close him without a fight no matter who they are .

+1 since been saying this to. His men even said pretty much it's now or never and that he won't get a chance like this again to get passed the admirals yet Blackbeard D. Kuma really does seem to believe even if he gets passed Garp and Sengoku some guy who wouldn't compare to them would ruin the fun which would be anticlimatic and boring. It's like defeating Sephiroth and then before the end credits roll, an ordinary shinra soldier kills you of.

Originally Posted by Poetic Justice

I thought frankyhouse were generally accepted to be good?

When they were still using Cnet's or Svg's translation they were but these days there scans are rather poorly if you ask me. Always seem to contain several mistranslations when you compare them to Svg's translation.

[Prestige]

Well if you want to be absolutely certain that you are reading correct translations you should read BT's (pm me for if you dont know what it is). Though they release quite lately compared to others but their scan quality is good and translations are always from Cnet.

I am personally very strict with correct translations, Oda's story is certainly not easy to translate to english but even few translation errors or even one little error on one word can actually change entire meaning of the chapter, you might be satisfied or pissed after chapter just because one mistake on translations.

FH's translations has been off ALOT for lately and I suggest you to read One Piece with caution when you read it at OM. I suggest that you should read each chapter atleast twice, first when it appears on quick source and again when BT's scan is out.

Oh about Kizaru, it is clear that he cant just 'teleport' around but he rather have to make a path for his light with mirrors and reflect himself to target, though he does this very fast and once path is complete he can move himself with speed of light.

Akainu,Aokiji and Kizaru are real monsters, their fruit powers can make quick work even on strongest of fighters, as long as they are allowed to roam free there will be little hope for the pirates...

[seiji_kun]

I always read Binktopia's version myself. It's just the one you need to read these days to get everything out OP you can. A mistranslation never makes me pissed but it does dissapoint me how some groups distribute such poor releases with so many errors. Speed > quality they seem to think which I do feel sad cause I don't see why some groups want the prestige of beeing the fastest release. Just take the release at OM atm which has a chance of staying there forever. The very first page has the title already wrong...

And I agree about the admirals, they proven to be truly beasts. WB does seem to be dealing with Kizaru and I really want Squad to intercept Akainu and tell him it's time for payback with deceiving him and Marco and Jozu to be ressurected so the situation doesn't look so desperately for the WB pirates anymore.

[Blackbeard D. Kuma]

Originally Posted by seiji_kun

No, I just don't want Luffy to pass Garp or Sengoku with strength since I wouldn't find it very believable to him to be able to get passed those two due to strength.

Exactly. I feel the same way here, but I don't approve of your solution by having Garp let Luffy save Ace and stop Sengoku if necessary. He has to struggle to get to Ace so that there is suspense.

Originally Posted by seiji_kun

Moria and Kuma were easely schooled bye Jinbei and Iva which would make it totally laughable for me if those two suddenly would be able to stop him, do we really need them to be stopped again bye those two. And Technically Moria could've had his bats swarm around him the whole war but it never happened so hoping it suddenly happens at a crucial moment would make no sense. Nor can I see Kuma aim a paw with pin point location at a platform of such height, or almost anyone besides Kizaru with jumping (floating?) in the air.

You obviously don't know the meaning of "easily schooled". Moria and Kuma are still in perfect fighting condition, which means they didn't get their asses kicked.

And I said that Kuma can warp in front of Luffy, to which you have no defense against. I'm still waiting for your rebuttal on that one.

Originally Posted by seiji_kun

It's so much in vain that they actually made it close enough to the execution platform for Inazuma to create a path to Ace. I'll wait out and see what'll happen then rather doom them already like you seem to do. Cause I don't find it clear that they'll lose and can still see them rise from the ashes as a phoenix. WB's final stand won't be in vain. Legends go out with a bang, not as failures.

I'm not dooming them at all. Ace is going to be saved; that much is certain. But in terms of fighting power, the marines and shichibukai have the WB pirates beat. You cannot dispute this. And I'm still hoping that Whitebeard is the one who'll save Ace. I've said this countless times already: This is Whitebeard's time to shine. Let him have his moment of glory before he bites the dust, because Luffy will have plenty more ahead of him after this arc is over. It's time for someone else to have the spotlight.

Originally Posted by seiji_kun

Right back at you, there's no way that outside interference would stop Luffy. It's all about Luffy vs Garp and Sengoku. Those guys had their chance before he made it that far. We've shown what happens when you show your back to the enemy and want to dash of somewhere, you get injured like Marco and seastoned cuffed or slashed in two like WB did to Kizaru. And it would make him even getting their pointless if you're just going to keep putting all the enemies that he passed back in front of him.

This is war. Having a clear path paved for you to fulfill your duty is nonsensical and unrealistic. You will encounter opposition no matter what. This was my point from the very beginning, and it seems like you've ignored it

Originally Posted by seiji_kun

No-one is going to interfere with the gramps schooling his grandson and when Luffy has put his gramps on the right path it'll already be to late. I don't know how smoothly the convincing will go (if it even happens but that's what I expect) but it has to go rather smoothly cause I'd choose that option over Luffy magicly defeating Garp and Sengoku and then freeing Ace any day.

You said that you'll wait how things play out, and yet you're so certain your scenario is going to come to fruition. You contradict yourself .

[seiji_kun]

Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma

Exactly. I feel the same way here, but I don't approve of your solution by having Garp let Luffy save Ace and stop Sengoku if necessary. He has to struggle to get to Ace so that there is suspense.

Struggle yet again? I've seen him struggle enough this war to finally see him catch a break which Garp should be cause I wouldn't like this to come between them which it should if he's seriously going to try and stop him. If my gramps would stop me of saving my brother, he shouldn't expect me to talk to him anymore afterwards. And even if you disapprove cause you don't like the scenario, it doesn't make it impossible or even unlikely.

Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma

You obviously don't know the meaning of "easily schooled". Moria and Kuma are still in perfect fighting condition, which means they didn't get their asses kicked.

And I said that Kuma can warp in front of Luffy, to which you have no defense against. I'm still waiting for your rebuttal on that one.

I do, else I wouldn't use the term. Moria got punched in the gut to the point that his eye were white and what did we saw of him in return? Nothing. And if I remember right, Kuma got death wink spammed on him and hardly did anything back. You don't need to KO someone to school him and show who is the superior one of the two which Jinbei and Iva were for me though in Kuma's defense I found him a lot more weaker then back at TB and Shaobondy now that he's basicly just an other pacafista.

I did say previously that I don't expect people to insta transmission their ass next to him which warping basicly is so I didn't saw the need to respond to it. But warping, technically it's possible though technically there are also enough people on the battlefield that could probably stop him of doing it. But Kuma is a mindless robot atm who is probably just holding his line of defense like he was ordered to. I hardly see him as the mindless robot he is atm make such an independent course of action. Let alone that story wise it would hardly make sense to me for Kuma or Moria of all persons to be the one to stop him.

Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma

I'm not dooming them at all. Ace is going to be saved; that much is certain. But in terms of fighting power, the marines and shichibukai have the WB pirates beat. You cannot dispute this. And I'm still hoping that Whitebeard is the one who'll save Ace. I've said this countless times already: This is Whitebeard's time to shine. Let him have his moment of glory before he bites the dust, because Luffy will have plenty more ahead of him after this arc is over. It's time for someone else to have the spotlight.

The WB pirates have to be doing something right cause if the marines and the shichibukai have them clearly so beaten, I don't see how they'd even be able to reach the execution platform. Hell even injured WB should soon catch his second breath and have a final epic stand. Marco and Jozu could be still ressurected and none of the other 10 commanders or NW pirates have been taken out. Then add Iva, Jinbei and now even Croc who are still kicking ass and I would hardly say the Marines and the shichi have them truly beaten atm. There dirty scheme did gave them an advantage but it hasn't stopped the WB pirates of almost reaching their goal.

And each chapter you say it's WB time to shine and he should be the one to free Ace and I think we went over it in the previous chapter discussions alread enough. This chapter WB even goes as far as to tell his men to back up Luffy and show him what lies beyond this age and I doubt Luffy will fail to meet his expectations.

I think several of us have said enough bye now that WB will still shine even when Luffy is going to be the one to free Ace. WB can really still shine bye holding of other marines while Luffy solves dealing with Garp and Sengoku or especially shine bye beeing the one who makes sure they are able to leave Marine HQ.

Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma

This is war. Having a clear path paved for you to fulfill your duty is nonsensical and unrealistic. You will encounter opposition no matter what. This was my point from the very beginning, and it seems like you've ignored it

Maybe in your opinion, in mine it's more nonsencial and unrealistic to expect Luffy to keep going in circles and have all this marines and shichibukai to keep blocking his path. I didn't ignore it cause I've answered it enough bye now bye saying several times that the WB pirates will stop anybody with interfering with Luffy yet you seem to disagree. And I don't find anything nonsensical and unrealistic about the WB pirates making sure that Luffy will get a chance at doing the job.

Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma

You said that you'll wait how things play out, and yet you're so certain your scenario is going to come to fruition. You contradict yourself .

You didn't saw that line where I say, if it even happens but that's what I expect? Saying I'm expecting something and saying something will happen for certain are two complete other things so no I'm not contradicting myself. I can't wait and see and have expectations?

[Poetic Justice]

Originally Posted by Prestige

Well if you want to be absolutely certain that you are reading correct translations you should read BT's (pm me for if you dont know what it is). Though they release quite lately compared to others but their scan quality is good and translations are always from Cnet.

I am personally very strict with correct translations, Oda's story is certainly not easy to translate to english but even few translation errors or even one little error on one word can actually change entire meaning of the chapter, you might be satisfied or pissed after chapter just because one mistake on translations.

FH's translations has been off ALOT for lately and I suggest you to read One Piece with caution when you read it at OM. I suggest that you should read each chapter atleast twice, first when it appears on quick source and again when BT's scan is out.

After reading both bt's version and the one currently at OM there's a world of difference between the two, Like the frequent mistranslations in the one at OM at the dialogue sounding so off. Like when buggy says "That guy sure stand out" and when he was actually saying "How dare he stand out like that!" It totally changes the meaning and the joke in the sentence.

[andy]

@Blackbeard D Kuma

This is war. Having a clear path paved for you to fulfill your duty is nonsensical and unrealistic. You will encounter opposition no matter what. This was my point from the very beginning, and it seems like you've ignored it.

You have to be kidding with that line. I know you can't be serious , the WB pirates are holding back everyone other than grap and sengoku . Hell you have WB hold back tons of strong guys cause they want to kill him plus he stop kizaru. You have boa who knows destroy how many pxs , you have iva and crab chan stopping people from getting near platform. Then vista stop it from getting shoot down. That's not counting croc who just stop mihawk plus NW captains , plus WB commanders who have all 1 order protect luffy .

Is not that marines are not trying to stop luffy is just they can't right now the only ones that can stop him are grap and sengoku cause they only ones not doing nothing until someone else gets free from the battle.

[james0246]

^Even more than that, this is a story. So, trying to place real world parameters and boundaries on the battle is a bit...silly. The battle is only as realistic as the world in which the battle takes place...

[andy]

Originally Posted by james0246

^Even more than that, this is a story. So, trying to place real world parameters and boundaries on the battle is a bit...silly. The battle is only as realistic as the world in which the battle takes place...

Even that they are battles that take place in real history where armies hold back people with less numbers or troops hold back enemies to save a hostage etc etc .

[Blackbeard D. Kuma]

Originally Posted by seiji_kun

Struggle yet again? I've seen him struggle enough this war to finally see him catch a break which Garp should be cause I wouldn't like this to come between them which it should if he's seriously going to try and stop him. If my gramps would stop me of saving my brother, he shouldn't expect me to talk to him anymore afterwards. And even if you disapprove cause you don't like the scenario, it doesn't make it impossible or even unlikely.

Struggle just like he's had to in every other arc. It's called consistency.

Originally Posted by seiji_kun

I do, else I wouldn't use the term. Moria got punched in the gut to the point that his eye were white and what did we saw of him in return? Nothing. And if I remember right, Kuma got death wink spammed on him and hardly did anything back. You don't need to KO someone to school him and show who is the superior one of the two which Jinbei and Iva were for me though in Kuma's defense I found him a lot more weaker then back at TB and Shaobondy now that he's basicly just an other pacafista.

You don't know what "easily schooled" means.

By your logic, we can say that Crocodile easily schooled Doflamingo and Jozu when he blew them away with his sand storm. Obviously, that's not the case since they were completely fine after that attack. And Moria getting white eyes after taking Jimbei's punch really doesn't mean anything since every character in One Piece gets those eyes whenever they take a powerful hit, and yet they keep coming back to retaliate.

As for your argument of not doing anything back, you don't know that because Oda is constantly only showing brief portions of fights. The fights are always being cut off and then Oda transitions into another scene. But the fact is, Moria and Kuma are still perfectly fine, and that's what ultimately counts, not your interpretation to favor the "good guys".

Originally Posted by seiji_kun

There dirty scheme did gave them an advantage but it hasn't stopped the WB pirates of almost reaching their goal.

It's obvious which side has the advantage here, so I don't need to elaborate on that any further. Also, the goal of the WB pirates is to rescue Ace, not try to overpower the marines and shichibukai. You don't necessarily have to get rid of your opposition to accomplish that.

Originally Posted by seiji_kun

And each chapter you say it's WB time to shine and he should be the one to free Ace and I think we went over it in the previous chapter discussions alread enough. This chapter WB even goes as far as to tell his men to back up Luffy and show him what lies beyond this age and I doubt Luffy will fail to meet his expectations.

It's a matter of preference. I want Whitebeard to save Ace, and the rest of you want Luffy to save Ace. Here lies the rift between us.

Originally Posted by seiji_kun

Maybe in your opinion, in mine it's more nonsencial and unrealistic to expect Luffy to keep going in circles and have all this marines and shichibukai to keep blocking his path. I didn't ignore it cause I've answered it enough bye now bye saying several times that the WB pirates will stop anybody with interfering with Luffy yet you seem to disagree. And I don't find anything nonsensical and unrealistic about the WB pirates making sure that Luffy will get a chance at doing the job.

It's not going in circles because Luffy is making progress towards his goal. He's almost there, but he shouldn't get to Ace with a "free pass" (if you've read my posts you'll know what I mean by this). This is where the whole debate between us started, and you've really made it unnecessarily complex for yourself.

Here's the problem. A lot of the members here will take and accept anything that Oda gives to them in his story. I'm not like that. If there's BS, I'm going to call it out. Every author is subjected to criticism, and Oda is no exception. It's okay to have an opinion, but don't be blinded by fanboyism.

[AddiKtioNn-BlaCk]

Originally Posted by marvelB

To be fair, I did say "less cheap", instead of "not cheap at all". I never expected the marines to play completely by the rulebooks, but I still kinda wish they took Marco down in a more..... epic manner, y'know? (i.e. without resorting to seastone.) Maybe I am overestimating the first commander a bit, but I think anyone would have pretty high expectations for a phoenix DF user. But.... whatever. I'll drop the subject for now.....
.

Dont be mistaken. I wasn't attacking you if that's what it seemed.
I thought you were to the fact that he was taken down by a Admiral and a vice-admiral as being cheap, not the seastones.
But I understand you can't help but have high expectations for Marco because he's a phoenix-zoan.
And some of us know about the Phoenix Legend.
But so far Marco is nothing special.
The only thing that's awesome about the fruit shown so far is the immortality part.

[james0246]

^So competing evenly (not necessarily beating, but being able to hold your own) with an Admiral, arguably some of the strongest people we have seen in the series up to this point, is "nothing special"? Well, for me at least, Marco has been amazing...admittedly, I went into this arc expecting Whitebeard to be the only one able to fight against an Admiral, so I have had the opposite reaction to MarvelB: my expectations started low, and were raised as the battle commenced...

[Prestige]

I think its mistake to make conclusions about peoples strenghts because of this war. Situation is chaotic at best and fighters are in diffrent positions or might being protecting someone or something.

This is pretty much of an opposite of Bleach war what is more like organized tournament compromising 1vs1,2vs2 fights without serious interventions.

Also One Piece battle is more like rock-paper-scissors style where A->B->C->A.

If Aokiji freezes Jozu but who in turn gets burned by Ace who in turns gets beated by Jozu in fight then its very hard to determine who is really strongest of them.

There is no two identical devil fruits so if one of the combatants is fruit users then strenghts calculations might be quite useless.

Enel is good example, many believe that he should be 'low-tier' and weak but if Enel should appear to this war he would be a tremendous threat to his enemys.

I think Enel is still in top 5 of most threatining fighters seen in series this far.

[marvelB]

I know I said I'd drop off the Marco subject, but to delve back into it a bit, I kinda figured from the get-go that there would be at least a few people in Whitebeard's forces aside from the old man himself who were capable of holding their own against the admirals (and Logias in general). This is mainly because the marines have the Shichibukai on their side, some of whom could be considered to be near/around the admirals' level themselves. Honestly, I wouldn't have expected any less, seeing as this is a group of some of the world's strongest pirates fighting in this war. That's why I'm a bit disappointed that Marco was taken out so quickly (and with relative ease, to boot) when he's showed off so little of his power. At least we saw Jozu show off some amazing brute strength and proved that he's perfectly capable of taking on Logias, no problemo. As I said before, maybe Marco can redeem himself when he gets freed from those seastone cuffs, but so far he's been a bit of a letdown for me.....

[seiji_kun]

Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma

Struggle just like he's had to in every other arc. It's called consistency.

Do I have to repeat this again, the consistency has already happened, he has struggled enough this arc to make him catching a break in the form of his gramps believable and enjoyable.

Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma

You don't know what "easily schooled" means.

By your logic, we can say that Crocodile easily schooled Doflamingo and Jozu when he blew them away with his sand storm. Obviously, that's not the case since they were completely fine after that attack. And Moria getting white eyes after taking Jimbei's punch really doesn't mean anything since every character in One Piece gets those eyes whenever they take a powerful hit, and yet they keep coming back to retaliate.

As for your argument of not doing anything back, you don't know that because Oda is constantly only showing brief portions of fights. The fights are always being cut off and then Oda transitions into another scene. But the fact is, Moria and Kuma are still perfectly fine, and that's what ultimately counts, not your interpretation to favor the "good guys".

Again, you don't need to take someone out of the game to school him and show who was the superior one of the two which those scenes clearly implied to me. If one of us don't know what the term means, it seems more you then me... Schooling one is showing someone how superior you are and Jinbei and Iva did that for me, they took them out fast like was needed without anything getting done to them in return and if they did something in return I think Oda would show us such an important element.

Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma

It's obvious which side has the advantage here, so I don't need to elaborate on that any further. Also, the goal of the WB pirates is to rescue Ace, not try to overpower the marines and shichibukai. You don't necessarily have to get rid of your opposition to accomplish that.

Never said they didn't had the advantage. And here I thougth the goal was to learn the WG a lesson that you don't touch WB's men. This war doesn't end with just saving Ace. They still have to be able to leave with all their men and it's not like the WG will let them leave when they have the upperhand and can easely put down such a prized wounded horse.

This could result for me in the time that WB will shine, he'll be the one to secure that. The most important thing yet they still need. A way to get all his men out. Maybe bye staying behind and have one hell of an epic final stand where he'll utilize his DF to the fullest though personally I'd prefer him to be able to leave with his men and then die in their company. If Oda doesn't retire him due to his issues with death.

Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma

It's a matter of preference. I want Whitebeard to save Ace, and the rest of you want Luffy to save Ace. Here lies the rift between us.

It's a matter of understanding the story, I don't think any (or at least most) of us ever said that our preference lies with Luffy. Just that Oda has made it clear bye now that Luffy will be the one who frees Ace.

Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma

It's not going in circles because Luffy is making progress towards his goal. He's almost there, but he shouldn't get to Ace with a "free pass" (if you've read my posts you'll know what I mean by this). This is where the whole debate between us started, and you've really made it unnecessarily complex for yourself.

It's you that wants it to remain going in circles. You want him to make progress while going in circles. You even want him to face still resistance when he gets past the final line of defense. It's not me making it unnecessarily complex, it's you beeing stubborn not trying to understand what I'm trying to say and push your believes on me (us).

Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma

Here's the problem. A lot of the members here will take and accept anything that Oda gives to them in his story. I'm not like that. If there's BS, I'm going to call it out. Every author is subjected to criticism, and Oda is no exception. It's okay to have an opinion, but don't be blinded by fanboyism.

We don't have all have to adapt to your opinion and are all entitled to our own opinion. If we found your criticism unjust, there's no point to shove it through our throats like you're trying to do with the "Luffy shouldn't save Ace".

Btw, I think everyone judges OP with the same standards they judge other mangas. It's not like we'll excuse Oda for doing something ridiculous cause he's Oda. I really don't get where people get this thougth. If a lot of people accept something he has to be doing something right and if you don't share that view and try to stock it up on fanboyism then it's kind of weak.

Originally Posted by marvelB

I know I said I'd drop off the Marco subject, but to delve back into it a bit, I kinda figured from the get-go that there would be at least a few people in Whitebeard's forces aside from the old man himself who were capable of holding their own against the admirals (and Logias in general). This is mainly because the marines have the Shichibukai on their side, some of whom could be considered to be near/around the admirals' level themselves. Honestly, I wouldn't have expected any less, seeing as this is a group of some of the world's strongest pirates fighting in this war. That's why I'm a bit disappointed that Marco was taken out so quickly (and with relative ease, to boot) when he's showed off so little of his power. At least we saw Jozu show off some amazing brute strength and proved that he's perfectly capable of taking on Logias, no problemo. As I said before, maybe Marco can redeem himself when he gets freed from those seastone cuffs, but so far he's been a bit of a letdown for me.....

Same here, I kind of was sure Marco had to be quite the big shot and admiral lvl cause WB couldn't be the only one in Sengoku, Garp and the admirals lvl. And that silhouette that highlighted Marco and Jozu proofed that those were the two top dogs that were almost on par with WB.

But in Marco's defense, the man needed the don't get distracted in battlefield line to be taken out and then an admiral VA combo slapping seastone cuffs on him to be taken out. Not an admiral attack, they needed seastone cuffs to take him out, it really seems they didn't knew any other thing to swiftly take him out which just shows how imba he truly is to me. Jozu only needed the distraction, Marco needed the distraction and then the cheating combo. So Marco is much more kick ass to me. Oars jr was the true superstar though.

[Blackbeard D. Kuma]

@Seiji Kun - There's no point in debating with you anymore. All you do is put words in other people's mouths and skew the meaning of what they're trying to say. Just because one doesn't conform to the norm of opinions, it doesn't mean they're incorrect/wrong. We'll see how this war concludes and leave it at that. I trust that Oda will do a good job, and I suspect that he won't use the scenario that you have in mind. Knowing how unpredictable he is, I'm sure he has some more twists in store for us.

[seiji_kun]

Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma

@Seiji Kun - There's no point in debating with you anymore. All you do is put words in other people's mouths and skew the meaning of what they're trying to say.

Actually your the master in putting words in other people's mouth... I can make a whole list of you doing this so pot, don't call the kettle black.

Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma

Just because one doesn't conform to the norm of opinions, it doesn't mean they're incorrect/wrong.

And here's immediately an example of you doing it yourself cause I never said this.

Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma

[
We'll see how this war concludes and leave it at that. I trust that Oda will do a good job, and I suspect that he won't use the scenario that you have in mind. Knowing how unpredictable he is, I'm sure he has some more twists in store for us.

Yeah we'll see, it's not like I ever said it's certain that Garp will help Luffy out which are words you also put in my mouth... But I'm guess I'm just skewing your words again (lol). And the last sentence is one of the few times I probably agree with you. I do think Oda is way more original and there can still be more twists then to do what I'm hoping or think can happen.